What's a purist ?

[Porsche911R]

2011 Autocars drivers car of the year
https://youtu.be/Rs1oM8s-75U


and Harris saying this the 2nd time round after slagging it the 1st time he drove it I remember saying why call it an R !
https://youtu.be/r6nzdpYD4Ck


Live with an R and you realise how great a car it is, has nothing to do with GT3's etc, we are talking about the R.
taking one out for a test drive is pointless.

I talk about all my cars in truth, I have slated parts on my GT3 and on my GT4 and lets not go into the 350Z I owned !, I just say it how it is and not bias, the yare only cars to me, why else would I buy a 2nd Cayman R after owning 65 cars !

the following and peoples owner ship reviews now speak far far better than I can

the R and the 997.2 GTS are now very sort after cars as the new ones are a bit Meh !

[Steve Rance]

For me its about challenge and reward. Mid engined all very nice but unless the chasis is a dog, it's an easy fish to fry. I always come back to the 911. No other car satisfies that criteria for me. Unfortunately, Porsche in recent years have tried to make the 911 feel and drive like a mid engined car. Which - to me anyway - is a bit of a shame.

[hunter 66]

Steve would be my idea of a Purist especially if he grew a Beard.........no we all love the brand in its pure form...

[Steve Rance]

I can't grow a beard until I buy some polish. I've got a black marker pen though.

[bcr5784]

Sparkyhd said:

A purist is a person stuck in an arbitrary period of time. Some regret starter motors, others synchromesh. It's all arbitrary and there's nothing pure about it. No opinion or belief makes sense or is justifiable.

I'm sure if Ferdinand could have got his hands on a cost effective turbo when he originally hacked the VW parts bin he wouldn't have wasted time upping the engine to 6 cylinders but because of historical necessity some believe 6 is 'pure'. This is how religions start.

Spot on. Had as much investment gone into the rotary engine as the Otto cycle then reciprocating engines might be a thing of the past. Had the fuel cell been perfected a 100 years ago the infernal combustion engine would be a historical curiosity. Had the auto blipper preceded synchromesh heel and toe gearchanging would have been regarded as an unnecessary nonsense. Current technology is simply a result of the chronology of technical developments and getting religion about any particular snapshot in history makes no sense.

[Orangecurry]

There seem to be two types of bod being mixed-up here.

Beards, who don't like change, and purists, who think that 'less is more'.

nickfrog said:

I occasionally read that Porsche don't cater for them much in its product offering.

So I wonder if there was an objective definition of a purist in car terms and why would have Porsche allegedly stopped caring for their needs ?

The point is that when Porsche of old produced the old-skool lightweight specced-down versions, regardless of how cooled or driven or number of cylinders, these appealed to the purists.... less is more.... but there are fewer purists and skyrocketing numbers of 'look at me, I deserve it' customers, so Porsche of today produce 'excess' greed-is-good cars, which make purists feel sick.

Edited by Orangecurry on Monday 22 August 23:28

[n4aat]

bcr5784 said:

Sparkyhd said:

A purist is a person stuck in an arbitrary period of time. Some regret starter motors, others synchromesh. It's all arbitrary and there's nothing pure about it. No opinion or belief makes sense or is justifiable.

I'm sure if Ferdinand could have got his hands on a cost effective turbo when he originally hacked the VW parts bin he wouldn't have wasted time upping the engine to 6 cylinders but because of historical necessity some believe 6 is 'pure'. This is how religions start.

Spot on. Had as much investment gone into the rotary engine as the Otto cycle then reciprocating engines might be a thing of the past. Had the fuel cell been perfected a 100 years ago the infernal combustion engine would be a historical curiosity. Had the auto blipper preceded synchromesh heel and toe gearchanging would have been regarded as an unnecessary nonsense. Current technology is simply a result of the chronology of technical developments and getting religion about any particular snapshot in history makes no sense.

And what a shame that would have been. Driving would have simply been seen as a mode of transport and not a fun and challenging activity, accompanied by audible mechanical poetry, to be honed and mastered by enthusiasts and purists.

[CarreraLightweightRacing]

n4aat said:

bcr5784 said:

Sparkyhd said:

A purist is a person stuck in an arbitrary period of time. Some regret starter motors, others synchromesh. It's all arbitrary and there's nothing pure about it. No opinion or belief makes sense or is justifiable.

I'm sure if Ferdinand could have got his hands on a cost effective turbo when he originally hacked the VW parts bin he wouldn't have wasted time upping the engine to 6 cylinders but because of historical necessity some believe 6 is 'pure'. This is how religions start.

Spot on. Had as much investment gone into the rotary engine as the Otto cycle then reciprocating engines might be a thing of the past. Had the fuel cell been perfected a 100 years ago the infernal combustion engine would be a historical curiosity. Had the auto blipper preceded synchromesh heel and toe gearchanging would have been regarded as an unnecessary nonsense. Current technology is simply a result of the chronology of technical developments and getting religion about any particular snapshot in history makes no sense.

And what a shame that would have been. Driving would have simply been seen as a mode of transport and not a fun and challenging activity, accompanied by audible mechanical poetry, to be honed and mastered by enthusiasts and purists.

This thread has all the makings of a PDK vs Manual debate which is summed up by both camps in the last two posts above.
Define fun, challenging, rewarding, raw, involvement... and the next guy will come along and open up the reactionary can of worms to p1s5 on your chips.
As mentioned above, Steve Rance's garage has pretty much all an enthusiast could ever wish for in one collection, that is of course in you stand on correct side of the argument

[bcr5784]

n4aat said:

And what a shame that would have been. Driving would have simply been seen as a mode of transport and not a fun and challenging activity, accompanied by audible mechanical poetry, to be honed and mastered by enthusiasts and purists.

Nonsense, you could just as well argue the synchromesh destroyed the challenge of double declutch enthusiasts and purist, ABS the skill of "real" braking, autoadvance/mixture controls the joy of really interacting with the engine. Or that things would have been much better if we had stuck with steam, or that the motor car consigned interacting with a horse as transport to history and so on and on and on.

[Shambler]

Orangecurry said:

A purist is someone who believes that less is more.

I must be a purist as I do not own a porsche.

[ORD]

Binary thinking and straw men strike again.

'Unless you want a bicycle, talk of purity and challenge is all nonsense. We should drive 2500kg auto diesels, because there cannot possibly be a sweet spot between those two things'

[Slippydiff]

Porsche911R said:

2011 Autocars drivers car of the year
https://youtu.be/Rs1oM8s-75U


and Harris saying this the 2nd time round after slagging it the 1st time he drove it I remember saying why call it an R !
https://youtu.be/r6nzdpYD4Ck


Live with an R and you realise how great a car it is, has nothing to do with GT3's etc, we are talking about the R.
taking one out for a test drive is pointless.

I talk about all my cars in truth, I have slated parts on my GT3 and on my GT4 and lets not go into the 350Z I owned !, I just say it how it is and not bias, the yare only cars to me, why else would I buy a 2nd Cayman R after owning 65 cars !

the following and peoples owner ship reviews now speak far far better than I can

the R and the 997.2 GTS are now very sort after cars as the new ones are a bit Meh !

Not biased ? Next you'll be trying to convince us you're not deluded either The fact of the matter is you're a zealot, you always have been, and you always will be.

I suggest you read the thread title, this is not a Cayman R thread. What I was trying to get through your incredibly thick skull is that everything you've said about the CR can and has been said about the 996 GT3 before it.

Suffice to say, Steve R has nailed it by repeating what I've said previously elsewhere on this forum, some of us like more of a challenge to drive, and the Cayman R doesn't provide it, the majority of 2wd 911's (pre 991) do.

As you're choosing to do your usual internet forum equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and sing "lah lah lah I' can't hear you", I won't bother responding further as it's boring and pointless regurgitating the same old stuff.

[IMI A]

CarreraLightweightRacing said:

Steve Rance's garage has pretty much all an enthusiast could ever wish for in one collection, that is of course in you stand on correct side of the argument

He's missing a few cars

[CarreraLightweightRacing]

IMI A said:

CarreraLightweightRacing said:

Steve Rance's garage has pretty much all an enthusiast could ever wish for in one collection, that is of course in you stand on correct side of the argument

He's missing a few cars

The F1 is my favourite car of all time so no arguments there. Not sure on the M3 though, it there needs to be a motorsport based BMW in the collection, my vote would be the one below I was at the Nurburgring Classis GP last year and there was nothing that came close to how good the M1 sounds


Here is a video I made. All the Pork sounded almost mute by comparison:
https://www.facebook.com/richard.beaumont.58367/vi...

Edited by CarreraLightweightRacing on Sunday 28th August 08:24

[sidicks]

Porsche911R said:

2011 Autocars drivers car of the year
https://youtu.be/Rs1oM8s-75U


and Harris saying this the 2nd time round after slagging it the 1st time he drove it I remember saying why call it an R !
https://youtu.be/r6nzdpYD4Ck

Remember the golden rule - journalists can be ignored as they are just trying to sell magazines / are in the pay of the manufacturers etc etc.

(Unless of course they share your opinion, in which case their views are extremely relevant and important...)

Edited by sidicks on Sunday 28th August 09:02

[n4aat]

bcr5784 said:

n4aat said:

And what a shame that would have been. Driving would have simply been seen as a mode of transport and not a fun and challenging activity, accompanied by audible mechanical poetry, to be honed and mastered by enthusiasts and purists.

Nonsense, you could just as well argue the synchromesh destroyed the challenge of double declutch enthusiasts and purist, ABS the skill of "real" braking, autoadvance/mixture controls the joy of really interacting with the engine. Or that things would have been much better if we had stuck with steam, or that the motor car consigned interacting with a horse as transport to history and so on and on and on.

I think of it more like a bell curve. Steam at the bottom left end and driverless at the bottom right. At the top in the middle is my optimum car. Unfortunately each new tech development is now taking us further down the right slope and away from the top of the curve, IMHO.

Also, this is my bell curve, with my optimum car at the top. Others' will have curves to the left or the right of mine.

[IMI A]

CarreraLightweightRacing said:

IMI A said:

CarreraLightweightRacing said:

Steve Rance's garage has pretty much all an enthusiast could ever wish for in one collection, that is of course in you stand on correct side of the argument

He's missing a few cars

The F1 is my favourite car of all time so no arguments there. Not sure on the M3 though, it there needs to be a motorsport based BMW in the collection, my vote would be the one below I was at the Nurburgring Classis GP last year and there was nothing that came close to how good the M1 sounds


Here is a video I made. All the Pork sounded almost mute by comparison:
https://www.facebook.com/richard.beaumont.58367/vi...

Edited by CarreraLightweightRacing on Sunday 28th August 08:24

Ha yes M1 replaces the M3 in the perfect garage. Lambo made first bunch for BMW - amazing cars

[CarreraLightweightRacing]

n4aat said:

I think of it more like a bell curve. Steam at the bottom left end and driverless at the bottom right. At the top in the middle is my optimum car. Unfortunately each new tech development is now taking us further down the right slope and away from the top of the curve, IMHO.

Also, this is my bell curve, with my optimum car at the top. Others' will have curves to the left or the right of mine.

Great way of looking at it Nathan I'm of the opinion that late 90's to early 2000's was the peak. Just enough tech (ABS and switchable TC is about as much as there needs to be), not too much emission base interference, good reliability and enough power from cars of this era

[bcr5784]

n4aat said:

.

Also, this is my bell curve, with my optimum car at the top. Others' will have curves to the left or the right of mine.

You may have personal bell curve, but I'm not sure its a valid way of looking at it (certainly not for me). I'm not, as it happens , a steam or vintage car nut - but that is an accident of MY history - but I have no doubt (from what I DO know) that I would really enjoy them if I was. I haven't driven a Moggy 3 wheeler - but roadtests suggest to me it would be great fun, despite its objective deficiencies. In short, if I have a bell curve, it has a pretty flat top.