718 Positive Vibes Thread...

[bobo67]

Wasn't considering black until this

[Olderandwiser22]

I wasn't considering Miami blue until this:

https://video.citnow.com/vtGHD3RCd74

[Ian in Halifax]

Black looks great but it marks so easily I got a metallic black golf it swirls like mad looks a mess in sunlight.

[bobo67]

Ian in Halifax said:

Black looks great but it marks so easily I got a metallic black golf it swirls like mad looks a mess in sunlight.

Have owned black Porsche previously it was nightmare to keep, need to be very carefully washing it but to be fair they all show swirl marks- have guards red at present its the same although not just as bad

[miroku]

So, I have owned a 987 Boxster, 987 Cayman and currently a 981 Cayman. Had a 781 on trial last weekend. Firstly. Noise. not as pretty as my current 6 cylinder, but, not as bad as purists would have you believe.
Performance was brilliant, whole car a massive improvement over the current model.
So, sorry cmoose et al I am placing an order.
Of all the aspects of this car why all the emphasis on noise? I know soul etc but have all the nay sayers actually driven one?
Just to add, I use mine as a daily and drive about 20k per year so not a weekend toy.
May even go for a sports exhaust just to satisfy the boy racers.

[LiamH66]

I'm not sure many of the journalists berating the 4 cylinder engines have stepped out of one and into the other. My experience of it was getting out of a 718 Boxster manual into a 981 Cayman S PDK. I bet I could turn in marginally better lap times on a track in the 981, but I'd have to work for it. For a performance car on the road, and to use every day, it was a no-brainer. I was thinking either a late used 981 Cayman, or a new 718 Cayman, and I reached exactly the same conclusion as you almost immediately - they're just better at everything except sounding like a high revving flat 6.

I've thought a bit about the "how dare they make a Subaru engined Porsche" comments on the 718. Porsche started out making flat-4 rear engine cars. They moved to a mid-engine flat-4 years before their first flat-6. And they were at the forefront of turbo engine development right from the word go.

I'm completely with you on this. They are better. There is a reason. Porsche know how to do this stuff. I love the idea of a 981 Cayman as my next everyday car, but in reality I know I'll enjoy a 718 more.

Liam

[adamishome]

Another gushing review using a lot of common sense...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimresnick/2016/09/20/...

Seems the cynics are being silenced on the merits of the 718

[Timbola]

adamishome said:

Another gushing review using a lot of common sense...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimresnick/2016/09/20/...

Seems the cynics are being silenced on the merits of the 718

Thanks for linking.

Some excellent quotes in there, including this snippet regarding lag, or lack thereof;
"However, what truly impresses is a bit esoteric, though remarkable. The 718 shows a total absence of flywheel effect, hesitation or lag from throttle application, despite being turbocharged, a format that often precipitates lag. That’s a genuine engineering achievement that requires charts, graphs, computational fluid dynamics and quadratic equations to explain, but the result is pure joy and liveliness uncommon in turbo engines. Not even the purest purist could find fault with this kind of rapid response. Think of it as performance therapy."

[Carl_Manchester]

Its a gushing review from a writer who is willing to accept a 4-cylinder engine of this type in a car of this price and is willing to dismiss it in one short paragraph.

'Sound-wise, aficionados prefer more cylinders rather than fewer because it makes and engine’s song more complex and rich. And while the idling 718 engine burbles a somewhat low-rent voice closer to Subaru than Spyder, that song changes to a valve-tappet hammering, hard-edged wallop at high revs.'

I don't know what the writer deems as 'high-revs' but its safe to assume over 6.5k rpm.

So, its ok to rip the heart out of the car, you can just drive around the local streets in 1st gear. A bit like a from a sink estate and voila! sound problem 'solved'.... Genius.

[bcr5784]

Timbola said:

Thanks for linking.

Some excellent quotes in there, including this snippet regarding lag, or lack thereof;
"However, what truly impresses is a bit esoteric, though remarkable. The 718 shows a total absence of flywheel effect, hesitation or lag from throttle application, despite being turbocharged, a format that often precipitates lag. That’s a genuine engineering achievement that requires charts, graphs, computational fluid dynamics and quadratic equations to explain, but the result is pure joy and liveliness uncommon in turbo engines. Not even the purest purist could find fault with this kind of rapid response. Think of it as performance therapy."

I know this is a positive vibes thread, and I have no desire to slag the car off, but I would completely dismiss the opinions of a journalist who says the car is lag free. Sure you can drive the car in such a way that lag isn't a big issue to you, particularly with pdk, but to assert it is lag free or anything like is simply and demonstrably bks.

[Sparkyhd]

Back to positive vibes, our car is ready for collection 9:15 Saturday.

[edo]

Track compare in autocar today versus m2. Blyton park. Two and a half secs quicker than the m2 fwiw. M2 declared best bmw for years but cayman better handling and more "incisive".

[edo]

FourPotPorsche said:

edo said:

Track compare in autocar today versus m2. Blyton park. Two and a half secs quicker than the m2 fwiw. M2 declared best bmw for years but cayman better handling and more "incisive".

Just returned from a BMW Experience day at Thruxton. Drove the i8, M5, M4 and M2 round the track. The M2 was the highlight for me and if I ever went back to that brand in the next few years then it would be the car I would choose...however, the 718 Cayman S is the apple of my eye

Edited by FourPotPorsche on Wednesday 21st September 19:45

Cayman (manual) was quicker than a v12 Vantage and only a second and a half behind a GT-R with twice the power and AWD.

[LiamH66]

bcr5784 said:

I know this is a positive vibes thread, and I have no desire to slag the car off, but I would completely dismiss the opinions of a journalist who says the car is lag free. Sure you can drive the car in such a way that lag isn't a big issue to you, particularly with pdk, but to assert it is lag free or anything like is simply and demonstrably bks.

Demonstrably? I'm not so sure - both 2.0 and 2.5 that I have driven (2 x 2.0, 1 x 2.5) appeared to me to be free of turbo lag in all situations where I wasn't trying to make life difficult for myself. And, yes, OK, at 2000 rpm there's not much happening in terms of response from the 2.0, but from 3k up the turbo responds about as fast as your right foot. I've not driven another turbo car, even LPT, that is close to either of these for drivability.

Now someone has told me there's a boost gauge, I'll figure out how to turn it on before I next drive one of these and see just how quickly they build boost - it's quick. From my last few drives I thought they seemed just about as lag free as I've ever experienced, and I have driven an awful lot of turbo cars over the years.

Liam

[pete.g]

LiamH66 said:

bcr5784 said:

I know this is a positive vibes thread, and I have no desire to slag the car off, but I would completely dismiss the opinions of a journalist who says the car is lag free. Sure you can drive the car in such a way that lag isn't a big issue to you, particularly with pdk, but to assert it is lag free or anything like is simply and demonstrably bks.

yes, OK, at 2000 rpm there's not much happening in terms of response from the 2.0, but from 3k up the turbo responds about as fast as your right foot.
Liam

That, surely, is lag?

I would have bought a 718 had I not found a CGTS, so I'm not trying to pee on anyone's bonfire, but positive vibes can't just mean ignoring things.

[edo]

standard S 5 spokes are growing on me versus the 19 Box S I was planning on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGrp21gGZuo

[LiamH66]

pete.g said:

That, surely, is lag?

I would have bought a 718 had I not found a CGTS, so I'm not trying to pee on anyone's bonfire, but positive vibes can't just mean ignoring things.

No, being under 2000 rpm is just being outside the operating envelope of the turbo. Lag is generally defined as a variation in torque delivery that is time dependent with a fixed throttle position - i.e. in the operating range, but waiting for the turbo to start spinning. Used to be a real problem back in the late 80's, but turbo technology and engine management advances through the 90's pretty well sorted it. We used to video the boost gauge in race cars back then, as data acquisition was in its infancy, and wasn't particularly fast or user friendly. When you had it so it barely flickered on an upshift you knew you were about there. As a converse, roadgoing Tickford Capri turbos, whilst a brilliant anachronism, could build an extra 7psi of boost mid-corner that made getting out the other side of it a serious challenge. And that was if you were on the right revs, and feathering the throttle because you knew it could all get a bit out of hand.

If the 718 has any turbo lag (as defined above), I have struggled to find it. As for positive vibes, Porsche engineers deserve a few. While everyone's complaining about the soundtrack, I've driven a couple of the finest 4 cylinder turbo cars ever made. Begs the question of just how much power the 718 GT4 is going to have if turbocharged - I'm guessing it could easily go north of 400hp, but depends how much room they have to play with in head gasket sealing and temperature management.

Good call on the Cayman GTS - I have always preferred naturally aspirated engines that can spin at a reasonably high speed. But I do think they've pushed the boat out to make the 718 a bit special. I have to be a bit biased, because I've ordered one, but I honestly think they have an outstanding engine package.

Liam

Edited by LiamH66 on Thursday 22 September 00:57

[n4aat]

pete.g said:

LiamH66 said:

bcr5784 said:

I know this is a positive vibes thread, and I have no desire to slag the car off, but I would completely dismiss the opinions of a journalist who says the car is lag free. Sure you can drive the car in such a way that lag isn't a big issue to you, particularly with pdk, but to assert it is lag free or anything like is simply and demonstrably bks.

yes, OK, at 2000 rpm there's not much happening in terms of response from the 2.0, but from 3k up the turbo responds about as fast as your right foot.
Liam

That, surely, is lag?

No more than the 981 at low revs. 981 is no more responsive than a 1.6D Fiesta at low revs. My experience of the 718S was that lag is minimal and not unlike the gushing journo quote shown above.

[Sparkyhd]

n4aat said:

No more than the 981 at low revs. 981 is no more responsive than a 1.6D Fiesta at low revs. My experience of the 718S was that lag is minimal and not unlike the gushing journo quote shown above.

I agree. The 981 2.7 was just hard work in my opinion with very few bits of road where I could get the revs up. When I went out in a 718 the available torque plus sharper steering made me think "wow, this car is frisky". I wanted one immediately but unfortunately I had to wait 3 months but it's now only 2 days 1 hour and 38 minutes to collection.

[bcr5784]

n4aat said:

No more than the 981 at low revs. 981 is no more responsive than a 1.6D Fiesta at low revs. My experience of the 718S was that lag is minimal and not unlike the gushing journo quote shown above.

If you stick a 718 in PDK in manual (or have a manual car), cruise along at 2000 revs and then floor it, precious little happens. I have seen figures that suggest it takes 3 seconds at that speed for the turbo to spool up. I tried that test myself and would agree that it takes about that time before the car really goes. When it does go, it is undoubtedly faster than a 981S at those revs (massively so than a base 981) Before the turbo spools up the 981s - say for a couple of seconds - accelerates faster. Whether that bothers you, or whether are happy to keep the revs above (say) 3000 to largely avoid lag is obviously a choice you can make. I am simply saying that, if you look for it, there is a LOT of lag. I am personally critical of some low rev lethargy on the 981S (particularly in the 2500-4000 range) and hoped that the (base) 718 would fix that - it doesn't, it changes one form of lethargy (but a completely predictable one) for another, rather unpredictable one.

I'm not trying to denigrate the 718 I am simply trying to be analytical. If you drove a PDK and left it in Sport or Sport plus you might believe lag was not an issue (in Sport plus it's no issue at all once rolling) but if you drive a PDK as a manual, both fast and slow (as I do) you would come across lag quite a lot. Personally that ruled out the 718 for me, but we all drive differently and have different priorities.

I can understand why this thread has be set up - there are a lot of people in "it's a turbo so must be crap" or "it's a flat 4 so must be crap", having owned 2 Subarus and now have a turbo 4 Seat Ibiza FR as a family car (which all suffer lag to differing degrees), I am definitely not in that camp, but I am conscious of lag.