When in doubt...do nothing.
Discussion
I had my E46 330ci MSport cab for 9 years and loved it until 125k miles in 2014 and things started to need replacing. Then to Merc (yeukk), Audi (yawn), and now I think my 981 will be another long term love affair. Strangely similar to the E46 in many ways. 6cyl, RWD, enjoyable handling.
I'm just hoping I can afford the repairs when the 981 is 15 years old.
I'm just hoping I can afford the repairs when the 981 is 15 years old.
DJMC said:
I had my E46 330ci MSport cab for 9 years and loved it until 125k miles in 2014 and things started to need replacing. Then to Merc (yeukk), Audi (yawn), and now I think my 981 will be another long term love affair. Strangely similar to the E46 in many ways. 6cyl, RWD, enjoyable handling.
I'm just hoping I can afford the repairs when the 981 is 15 years old.
How funny....as the best three cars I've truly loved are E46 330ci Msport Imola Red. 987.1 Boxster 2.7 5 speed....and my current 981 2.7 manual. I'm just hoping I can afford the repairs when the 981 is 15 years old.
Unfortunately, I think Porsche will stick with the 718.
It makes sense for the youth of today, and it is selling well, so why should they change the way they are going?
The 987 was a wonderful (still is) car with sharp steering and curves...
The best remembered cayman in a few years will be the 981.
Having driven them all, the 981 has everything in every way, sublime handling and perfect balance, unanimous throughout the motoring industry's leading test drivers and racing drivers.
The 981 has consistantly been regarded as being one of the most refined sports cars ever made.........
However, I am biased as I have a 981...........
I have no intention of selling this wonderful rare car....
Sorry about that...
Gadgit
It makes sense for the youth of today, and it is selling well, so why should they change the way they are going?
The 987 was a wonderful (still is) car with sharp steering and curves...
The best remembered cayman in a few years will be the 981.
Having driven them all, the 981 has everything in every way, sublime handling and perfect balance, unanimous throughout the motoring industry's leading test drivers and racing drivers.
The 981 has consistantly been regarded as being one of the most refined sports cars ever made.........
However, I am biased as I have a 981...........
I have no intention of selling this wonderful rare car....
Sorry about that...
Gadgit
gadgit said:
The 981 has consistently been regarded as being one of the most refined sports cars ever made.........
And therein lies one of its few problems, it's just not hardcore, visceral, tactile or engaging enough for some. No denying they are wonderful cars though. As for the 718, no matter what Stuttgart does, the 718 4 pot will always sound like a cross between an air-cooled VW Beetle (my second car) and Subaru Impreza (my 10th or 11th car) and for many that will be a deal breaker. I know it would be for me (irrespective of how much horsepower can be coaxed from the 4 pot lump cheaply)
I thought when I posted, that some 987 owners may of thought my post may have been a bit harsh. Hence the apology.
As someone on hear thought refinement in a sportscar was the last thing on a buying list, this makes my point.
Refined means, precise to a fine degree, subtle, and exact, and I would have thought you would want that in a sports car.
This was the main reason that the 981,2.7 got round the track quicker than the Alfa C4 ???
Gadgit
As someone on hear thought refinement in a sportscar was the last thing on a buying list, this makes my point.
Refined means, precise to a fine degree, subtle, and exact, and I would have thought you would want that in a sports car.
This was the main reason that the 981,2.7 got round the track quicker than the Alfa C4 ???
Gadgit
gadgit said:
As someone on hear thought refinement in a sportscar was the last thing on a buying list, this makes my point.
Refined means, precise to a fine degree, subtle, and exact, and I would have thought you would want that in a sports car.
This was the main reason that the 981,2.7 got round the track quicker than the Alfa C4 ???
Gadgit
I have to say that "refinement" , in the general sense, is (I suspect to most) - and certainly to me - high on Porsche buyers' priorities. I'd add practicality - otherwise you'd buy a Lotus or Caterham. I have to say that terms like "hardcore" and "visceral" strike me as totally inappropriate for any recent Porsche. Tactile and involving? (have you driven a Caterham?). That's not intended as a criticism, I think the Caysters (all of them) are terrific cars - but that's because they are a great compromise between practicality and dynamics - not because they are (by a country mile) "hardcore". Refined means, precise to a fine degree, subtle, and exact, and I would have thought you would want that in a sports car.
This was the main reason that the 981,2.7 got round the track quicker than the Alfa C4 ???
Gadgit
Edited by bcr5784 on Wednesday 18th January 19:31
But outright pace is no guarantee of a "better" driving machine, there's plenty of ferociously quick cars on the market currently that offer little in the way of tactility or engagement. 
I'm not convinvced your use of the word refinement is ideal in this context. Unless by refinement you meant "polished" ? (in which case I would concur with you/it's use)
However, I tend to think the 987 is more focused, more tactile and more engaging as a result, and that's becoming increasingly rare in this day and age.
I drove a stunningly specced 981S a couple of months ago, manual, PCCB's, folding carbon buckets, bi-xenons etc etc, whilst it was a lovely car to drive, "special and focused" it was not, it lost any real appeal as a result. I'm sure it would have made a very fine daily driver, but I wanted something more special and focused for high days and holidays.
I'm not convinvced your use of the word refinement is ideal in this context. Unless by refinement you meant "polished" ? (in which case I would concur with you/it's use)
However, I tend to think the 987 is more focused, more tactile and more engaging as a result, and that's becoming increasingly rare in this day and age.
I drove a stunningly specced 981S a couple of months ago, manual, PCCB's, folding carbon buckets, bi-xenons etc etc, whilst it was a lovely car to drive, "special and focused" it was not, it lost any real appeal as a result. I'm sure it would have made a very fine daily driver, but I wanted something more special and focused for high days and holidays.
Slippydiff said:
But outright pace is no guarantee of a "better" driving machine, there's plenty of ferociously quick cars on the market currently that offer little in the way of tactility or engagement.
I'm not convinvced your use of the word refinement is ideal in this context. Unless by refinement you meant "polished" ? (in which case I would concur with you/it's use)
However, I tend to think the 987 is more focused, more tactile and more engaging as a result, and that's becoming increasingly rare in this day and age.
I drove a stunningly specced 981S a couple of months ago, manual, PCCB's, folding carbon buckets, bi-xenons etc etc, whilst it was a lovely car to drive, "special and focused" it was not, it lost any real appeal as a result. I'm sure it would have made a very fine daily driver, but I wanted something more special and focused for high days and holidays.
Let's ignore outright pace - a Caterham is more tactile and engaging than any recent Porsche I've driven regardless of its power. I'm not convinvced your use of the word refinement is ideal in this context. Unless by refinement you meant "polished" ? (in which case I would concur with you/it's use)
However, I tend to think the 987 is more focused, more tactile and more engaging as a result, and that's becoming increasingly rare in this day and age.
I drove a stunningly specced 981S a couple of months ago, manual, PCCB's, folding carbon buckets, bi-xenons etc etc, whilst it was a lovely car to drive, "special and focused" it was not, it lost any real appeal as a result. I'm sure it would have made a very fine daily driver, but I wanted something more special and focused for high days and holidays.
I would accept that some clearly regard the 987 as more focussed etc than the 981 (and I wouldn't necessarily argue with them) - but lets be clear we are talking about nuances in the middle ground rather than the gulf that separates them both from "genuinely" hardcore cars like the Caterham (which still don't use spherical joints in their suspension for reasons of "refinement" and practicality) and REALLY hardcore cars like the Radicals and BAC Monos.
There's still a few 981 Boxsters and Caymans available with very low milage in the OPC's. May be worth considering if you wish to stick with the flat six and move the 70K car on. ?? Almost new ? understand the part about the tax break, I always buy considering the overall cost of ownership over the period. The 70K car may be getting near some expensive repair bills but only you will know that.
bcr5784 said:
Let's ignore outright pace - a Caterham is more tactile and engaging than any recent Porsche I've driven regardless of its power.
I would accept that some clearly regard the 987 as more focussed etc than the 981 (and I wouldn't necessarily argue with them) - but lets be clear we are talking about nuances in the middle ground rather than the gulf that separates them both from "genuinely" hardcore cars like the Caterham (which still don't use spherical joints in their suspension for reasons of "refinement" and practicality) and REALLY hardcore cars like the Radicals and BAC Monos.
And ?I would accept that some clearly regard the 987 as more focussed etc than the 981 (and I wouldn't necessarily argue with them) - but lets be clear we are talking about nuances in the middle ground rather than the gulf that separates them both from "genuinely" hardcore cars like the Caterham (which still don't use spherical joints in their suspension for reasons of "refinement" and practicality) and REALLY hardcore cars like the Radicals and BAC Monos.
I've never felt the least compunction to drive around in 90-250hp bedstead. Tin tops are an essential part of the equation for me, so that leaves me to compare the subtle nuances of tin tops that meet my criteria. Both a 981 and 987 are suitable candidates, though the 987 edges the newer car for tactility. Radicals, BAC Monos, Caterfield etc aren't even on my radar as an ownership proposition, irrespective of their undoubted focus and hardcore status.
[quote=Slippydiff]
And ?
I've never felt the least compunction to drive around in 90-250hp bedstead. /quote]
My issue is purely your use of adjectives.
Perfectly understand your choice (I would have difficulty in pursuading my wife to passenger in one, let alone drive one - hence my 981). But perhaps you should drive one - it would stop any use of the terms visceral and hardcore, and probably result in a major recalibration of tactile and engaging.
And ?
I've never felt the least compunction to drive around in 90-250hp bedstead. /quote]
My issue is purely your use of adjectives.
Perfectly understand your choice (I would have difficulty in pursuading my wife to passenger in one, let alone drive one - hence my 981). But perhaps you should drive one - it would stop any use of the terms visceral and hardcore, and probably result in a major recalibration of tactile and engaging.
bcr5784]lippydiff said:
And ?
I've never felt the least compunction to drive around in 90-250hp bedstead. /quote]
My issue is purely your use of adjectives.
Perfectly understand your choice (I would have difficulty in pursuading my wife to passenger in one, let alone drive one - hence my 981). But perhaps you should drive one - it would stop any use of the terms visceral and hardcore, and probably result in a major recalibration of tactile and engaging.
Well this is the Porsche forum, so my point of reference tends to be from within the Porsche stable I've never felt the least compunction to drive around in 90-250hp bedstead. /quote]
My issue is purely your use of adjectives.
Perfectly understand your choice (I would have difficulty in pursuading my wife to passenger in one, let alone drive one - hence my 981). But perhaps you should drive one - it would stop any use of the terms visceral and hardcore, and probably result in a major recalibration of tactile and engaging.
I've no idea of your previous Porsche ownership profile, as rather like myself you choose to hide your light under a bushel
but in Porsche terms I think you could say I've been around the block a couple of times :http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
So I think I have some small insight as to what is and isn't tactile in the Porsche pantheon, and compared with the 981 the 987 is a tactile little thing, likewise compared to pretty much any non-GT 991 it's more feelsome. For sure it comes nowhere close to a 964 RS, 996 GT2 or 993 RS, but they weren't the reference point (neither were the aforementioned bedsteads) in this instance. And on that basis, my use of the adjectives I chose are relevant in the context of this thread
And should you want my thoughts on the 987 R compared to the 964 RS, they can be found here :
0-60 ? Quite frankly if that's your benchmark for what makes a car great (or not great) you most likely won't get the RS.
Overly stiff ride ? Grow a f*ckin pair (it's an urban myth, so get one with decent, modern tyres (ie not ten year old Michelin MXX's) fresh dampers, sensible geo settings and ride heights, and you'll find them an absolute blast for A & B road hooning.
Build a rep on the cheap ? yep, course it can be done, but it's the little things that make them. Take the ali bonnet for example, lift it up ('cause there's no gas struts to help you) prop it up using the ali strut (who's end goes into a specially formed nut that doubles up as the securing nut for the strut top mount).
Pull on the inner door latch release pulls (formed from doubled up loops of seat belt material) feel the way they release the door latches so mechanically (then try the pastiche of the same idea on the Cayman R and feel how, as a sop to the RS, they've tried to incorporate the same idea into a door trim that wasn't designed for it (neither was the release mechanism) and feel how utterly sh*te it feels in it's action when compared to the original. It's what happens when the marketing men decree what goes into a car, rather than letting an engineer decide.
Put the dainty key into the ignition switch and turn it against the perfectly weighted spring loading of the switch. Just as your wrist starts to run out of articulation, the starter kicks in and the flat six bursts into life. If your foot isn't on the clutch, you'll hear the sound of the gears in the transmission rattling away as the lack of a dual mass flywheel (and the harmonic damping it usually provides) allows the gears to chatter excitedly within their casing.
Sit there and wait for some heat to percolate through the flat six, and soon after you'll be able to hear the thick, glutinous oil coursing through the pipes running the length of the car as the precious life blood is pumped towards the thermostat, only to be sent back to be warmed further without troubling the car's oil cooler.
Press down the floor hinged clutch pedal with it's initially awkward over-centre action, then gently palm the slightly baulky gearlever into first. Press the accelerator expecting the tardy, nee lazy, damped response most modern cars provide, and find this car's powerplant reacts instantaneously and you've just encouraged the rev counter around to 3000rpm, and not the 1200rpm you'd intended.
Try again, but being too timid, you stall it .......
Another attempt, this time you succeed as the car's low down torque aids your franky pathetic attempts to master the over-centre clutch, the hair trigger throttle response and the recalcitrant gearbox.
Out on the open road, the oil temperature gauge shows signs of life, the gearbox becomes less baulky and the steering starts to lighten with speed.
Twenty minutes in and the engine is now nicely warmed through. Let the fun commence ......
From your gentle fifth gear cruise, change down into third and slowly depress the long travel, floor hinged throttle pedal all the way to it's stop. The induction noise hardens and increases in volume, the drivetrain grumbles as you accelerate through the rev range and the lack of dual mass flywheel creates harsh resonances that sound more akin to a coffee grinder. But keep accelerating and they'll disappear to leave just the mechanical sound of the flat six along with it's induction noise and the cooling fan shifting vast quantities of soothing, cool air over the barrels and cylinder heads buried within the bowels of that nondescript looking engine compartment.
At 6,800 rpm in third the game's all over and its time to start the process all over again in fourth.
A quick, gentle lift of the throttle, along with a short, quick prod of the clutch, allows you to thread the perfectly weighted, short(ish) throw, gear lever through the gate.
A corner approaches, so you lift off the throttle and change down, you get back on the throttle and turn the steering wheel, initially the helm feels stodgy, heavy and unresponsive, you curse the lack of power steering as the nose seems unwilling to cooperate with your request for a change in direction.
But wait, the wheel in front of you isn't the sole method of altering the car's trajectory, next time try using the brakes to keep the weight over the front wheels whilst you turn them, then carefully chose the moment to get back on the throttle (hard) to utilise both the grunt of that flat six AND the traction afforded as a result of its position over the rear wheels.
Suddenly 260hp seems more than enough to make indecently rapid progress, but more than that, you're a simply massive part of the process of going fast, you have to be, because without your guiding hand, your perfect timing, your ability to deftly come off the brakes and seamlessly reapply the throttle, this car doesn't steer, it needs, no relies, on you to manage it's imperfect weight distribution.
It's hot sweaty work in the summer, no aircon along with no insulation means that a large part of the heat generated by that 3.6 litre engine finds it's way into the cabin. Soon your back will be wringing wet and that "moist" feeling is only exacerbated by the leather facings on some of the most perfectly formed bucket seats ever to grace a car. Supportive enough to enable you to retain control without having to hang onto the steering wheel, but not so all enveloping as modern race seat.
On the right roads, driving experiences don't come much better, or indeed more intense.
And when you've had your hit, you'll not need to race all the way home, instead you'll be happy to potter at 6/10's, watching as other far more powerful cars overtake you, safe in the knowledge that despite what the manufacturers of their cars may tell them, their owners will have little or no idea what tactility, engagement and fun behind the wheel really are.
Finally you'll arrive home, hot, sweaty and possibly slightly deaf..... You'll undo your seatbelt, remove the keys from the ignition, wind your window up and step out.When you slam the door shut, two things will stand out :
Firstly the delightful noise the door makes when it closes. Partly a function of it's bank vault build quality, and partly the fact that it's unencumbered by door pockets, airbags, central locking motors, electric windows or their switchgear.
And the second thing that will stand out when you slam the door shut ? A light, gentle, barely discernible tinkling noise......
Those that have owned and driven these wonderful cars will most likely know what this "tinkling" noise is, whilst those that think they're an overpriced, underperforming, anachronism, probably won't. But neither will they care........
Slippydiff.
The point you are missing here is that have you ever thought that you just might be wrong on this one. I suspect that will not be the case.
In my case, I did the right thing.
I went out and drove them all, which is the best way to choose a car.
Evora, Ftype, 997, all the Caymans thats were in my price bracket TVRs Caterham, Noble, you name it......
All the 987s had fitted 19inch wheels which attempted to knock you teeth out on country roads, so that finished me on the 987....
Nice car, I just hated the cheap plastic internal door handle.
This was one of many small annoying things about the car. So unrefined, is the purfect word for the interia, but I tried hard to get through this in my head.
I went to several places trying to make myself understand the failings of the car, but as all cars get older, they Can't help but age, its a natural progression in life and sometimes you just have to move on!
I am not suggesting that the 981 is for all, but then after all this testing I went and drove my 981.
As an experienced driver I climbed into the 981.
I was actually shocked at the way the car handles. Its just sublime in the corners, beautiful driving lines in and out of the bends, with a compliant suspension that does not attack your teeth on country roads.
The 981 is a breakthrough in many ways for Porsche, the main dealer was gutted that the car was being replaced due to tree huggers.
I do understand that your 987 indeed is a great car, but in many ways its just like my old TVR Chimp........... A fantastic car to drive, but perhaps its now become a weekend car instead, and you love it. Thats all that matters.
This is what happened to my Aston Martin.....weekend car.
Still, we are all different, and its horses for courses.
Gadgit
The point you are missing here is that have you ever thought that you just might be wrong on this one. I suspect that will not be the case.
In my case, I did the right thing.
I went out and drove them all, which is the best way to choose a car.
Evora, Ftype, 997, all the Caymans thats were in my price bracket TVRs Caterham, Noble, you name it......
All the 987s had fitted 19inch wheels which attempted to knock you teeth out on country roads, so that finished me on the 987....
Nice car, I just hated the cheap plastic internal door handle.
This was one of many small annoying things about the car. So unrefined, is the purfect word for the interia, but I tried hard to get through this in my head.
I went to several places trying to make myself understand the failings of the car, but as all cars get older, they Can't help but age, its a natural progression in life and sometimes you just have to move on!
I am not suggesting that the 981 is for all, but then after all this testing I went and drove my 981.
As an experienced driver I climbed into the 981.
I was actually shocked at the way the car handles. Its just sublime in the corners, beautiful driving lines in and out of the bends, with a compliant suspension that does not attack your teeth on country roads.
The 981 is a breakthrough in many ways for Porsche, the main dealer was gutted that the car was being replaced due to tree huggers.
I do understand that your 987 indeed is a great car, but in many ways its just like my old TVR Chimp........... A fantastic car to drive, but perhaps its now become a weekend car instead, and you love it. Thats all that matters.
This is what happened to my Aston Martin.....weekend car.
Still, we are all different, and its horses for courses.
Gadgit
Slippydiff said:
Well this is the Porsche forum, so my point of reference tends to be from within the Porsche stable
I've no idea of your previous Porsche ownership profile, as rather like myself you choose to hide your light under a bushel but in Porsche terms I think you could say I've been around the block a couple of times :
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
So I think I have some small insight as to what is and isn't tactile in the Porsche pantheon, and compared with the 981 the 987 is a tactile little thing, likewise compared to pretty much any non-GT 991 it's more feelsome. For sure it comes nowhere close to a 964 RS, 996 GT2 or 993 RS, but they weren't the reference point (neither were the aforementioned bedsteads) in this instance. And on that basis, my use of the adjectives I chose are relevant in the context of this thread
And should you want my thoughts on the 987 R compared to the 964 RS, they can be found here :
0-60 ? Quite frankly if that's your benchmark for what makes a car great (or not great) you most likely won't get the RS.
Overly stiff ride ? Grow a f*ckin pair (it's an urban myth, so get one with decent, modern tyres (ie not ten year old Michelin MXX's) fresh dampers, sensible geo settings and ride heights, and you'll find them an absolute blast for A & B road hooning.
Build a rep on the cheap ? yep, course it can be done, but it's the little things that make them. Take the ali bonnet for example, lift it up ('cause there's no gas struts to help you) prop it up using the ali strut (who's end goes into a specially formed nut that doubles up as the securing nut for the strut top mount).
Pull on the inner door latch release pulls (formed from doubled up loops of seat belt material) feel the way they release the door latches so mechanically (then try the pastiche of the same idea on the Cayman R and feel how, as a sop to the RS, they've tried to incorporate the same idea into a door trim that wasn't designed for it (neither was the release mechanism) and feel how utterly sh*te it feels in it's action when compared to the original. It's what happens when the marketing men decree what goes into a car, rather than letting an engineer decide.
Put the dainty key into the ignition switch and turn it against the perfectly weighted spring loading of the switch. Just as your wrist starts to run out of articulation, the starter kicks in and the flat six bursts into life. If your foot isn't on the clutch, you'll hear the sound of the gears in the transmission rattling away as the lack of a dual mass flywheel (and the harmonic damping it usually provides) allows the gears to chatter excitedly within their casing.
Sit there and wait for some heat to percolate through the flat six, and soon after you'll be able to hear the thick, glutinous oil coursing through the pipes running the length of the car as the precious life blood is pumped towards the thermostat, only to be sent back to be warmed further without troubling the car's oil cooler.
Press down the floor hinged clutch pedal with it's initially awkward over-centre action, then gently palm the slightly baulky gearlever into first. Press the accelerator expecting the tardy, nee lazy, damped response most modern cars provide, and find this car's powerplant reacts instantaneously and you've just encouraged the rev counter around to 3000rpm, and not the 1200rpm you'd intended.
Try again, but being too timid, you stall it .......
Another attempt, this time you succeed as the car's low down torque aids your franky pathetic attempts to master the over-centre clutch, the hair trigger throttle response and the recalcitrant gearbox.
Out on the open road, the oil temperature gauge shows signs of life, the gearbox becomes less baulky and the steering starts to lighten with speed.
Twenty minutes in and the engine is now nicely warmed through. Let the fun commence ......
From your gentle fifth gear cruise, change down into third and slowly depress the long travel, floor hinged throttle pedal all the way to it's stop. The induction noise hardens and increases in volume, the drivetrain grumbles as you accelerate through the rev range and the lack of dual mass flywheel creates harsh resonances that sound more akin to a coffee grinder. But keep accelerating and they'll disappear to leave just the mechanical sound of the flat six along with it's induction noise and the cooling fan shifting vast quantities of soothing, cool air over the barrels and cylinder heads buried within the bowels of that nondescript looking engine compartment.
At 6,800 rpm in third the game's all over and its time to start the process all over again in fourth.
A quick, gentle lift of the throttle, along with a short, quick prod of the clutch, allows you to thread the perfectly weighted, short(ish) throw, gear lever through the gate.
A corner approaches, so you lift off the throttle and change down, you get back on the throttle and turn the steering wheel, initially the helm feels stodgy, heavy and unresponsive, you curse the lack of power steering as the nose seems unwilling to cooperate with your request for a change in direction.
But wait, the wheel in front of you isn't the sole method of altering the car's trajectory, next time try using the brakes to keep the weight over the front wheels whilst you turn them, then carefully chose the moment to get back on the throttle (hard) to utilise both the grunt of that flat six AND the traction afforded as a result of its position over the rear wheels.
Suddenly 260hp seems more than enough to make indecently rapid progress, but more than that, you're a simply massive part of the process of going fast, you have to be, because without your guiding hand, your perfect timing, your ability to deftly come off the brakes and seamlessly reapply the throttle, this car doesn't steer, it needs, no relies, on you to manage it's imperfect weight distribution.
It's hot sweaty work in the summer, no aircon along with no insulation means that a large part of the heat generated by that 3.6 litre engine finds it's way into the cabin. Soon your back will be wringing wet and that "moist" feeling is only exacerbated by the leather facings on some of the most perfectly formed bucket seats ever to grace a car. Supportive enough to enable you to retain control without having to hang onto the steering wheel, but not so all enveloping as modern race seat.
On the right roads, driving experiences don't come much better, or indeed more intense.
And when you've had your hit, you'll not need to race all the way home, instead you'll be happy to potter at 6/10's, watching as other far more powerful cars overtake you, safe in the knowledge that despite what the manufacturers of their cars may tell them, their owners will have little or no idea what tactility, engagement and fun behind the wheel really are.
Finally you'll arrive home, hot, sweaty and possibly slightly deaf..... You'll undo your seatbelt, remove the keys from the ignition, wind your window up and step out.When you slam the door shut, two things will stand out :
Firstly the delightful noise the door makes when it closes. Partly a function of it's bank vault build quality, and partly the fact that it's unencumbered by door pockets, airbags, central locking motors, electric windows or their switchgear.
And the second thing that will stand out when you slam the door shut ? A light, gentle, barely discernible tinkling noise......
Those that have owned and driven these wonderful cars will most likely know what this "tinkling" noise is, whilst those that think they're an overpriced, underperforming, anachronism, probably won't. But neither will they care........
I did deliberately use the word "modern" before Porsche in my original post. We are talking (at least I thought we were) about Caysters not the past era when Porsches were small light and didn't need power steering etc. This is actually a Boxster/Cayman forum not a Porsche one, if we are being precise.I've no idea of your previous Porsche ownership profile, as rather like myself you choose to hide your light under a bushel
but in Porsche terms I think you could say I've been around the block a couple of times :http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
So I think I have some small insight as to what is and isn't tactile in the Porsche pantheon, and compared with the 981 the 987 is a tactile little thing, likewise compared to pretty much any non-GT 991 it's more feelsome. For sure it comes nowhere close to a 964 RS, 996 GT2 or 993 RS, but they weren't the reference point (neither were the aforementioned bedsteads) in this instance. And on that basis, my use of the adjectives I chose are relevant in the context of this thread
And should you want my thoughts on the 987 R compared to the 964 RS, they can be found here :
0-60 ? Quite frankly if that's your benchmark for what makes a car great (or not great) you most likely won't get the RS.
Overly stiff ride ? Grow a f*ckin pair (it's an urban myth, so get one with decent, modern tyres (ie not ten year old Michelin MXX's) fresh dampers, sensible geo settings and ride heights, and you'll find them an absolute blast for A & B road hooning.
Build a rep on the cheap ? yep, course it can be done, but it's the little things that make them. Take the ali bonnet for example, lift it up ('cause there's no gas struts to help you) prop it up using the ali strut (who's end goes into a specially formed nut that doubles up as the securing nut for the strut top mount).
Pull on the inner door latch release pulls (formed from doubled up loops of seat belt material) feel the way they release the door latches so mechanically (then try the pastiche of the same idea on the Cayman R and feel how, as a sop to the RS, they've tried to incorporate the same idea into a door trim that wasn't designed for it (neither was the release mechanism) and feel how utterly sh*te it feels in it's action when compared to the original. It's what happens when the marketing men decree what goes into a car, rather than letting an engineer decide.
Put the dainty key into the ignition switch and turn it against the perfectly weighted spring loading of the switch. Just as your wrist starts to run out of articulation, the starter kicks in and the flat six bursts into life. If your foot isn't on the clutch, you'll hear the sound of the gears in the transmission rattling away as the lack of a dual mass flywheel (and the harmonic damping it usually provides) allows the gears to chatter excitedly within their casing.
Sit there and wait for some heat to percolate through the flat six, and soon after you'll be able to hear the thick, glutinous oil coursing through the pipes running the length of the car as the precious life blood is pumped towards the thermostat, only to be sent back to be warmed further without troubling the car's oil cooler.
Press down the floor hinged clutch pedal with it's initially awkward over-centre action, then gently palm the slightly baulky gearlever into first. Press the accelerator expecting the tardy, nee lazy, damped response most modern cars provide, and find this car's powerplant reacts instantaneously and you've just encouraged the rev counter around to 3000rpm, and not the 1200rpm you'd intended.
Try again, but being too timid, you stall it .......
Another attempt, this time you succeed as the car's low down torque aids your franky pathetic attempts to master the over-centre clutch, the hair trigger throttle response and the recalcitrant gearbox.
Out on the open road, the oil temperature gauge shows signs of life, the gearbox becomes less baulky and the steering starts to lighten with speed.
Twenty minutes in and the engine is now nicely warmed through. Let the fun commence ......
From your gentle fifth gear cruise, change down into third and slowly depress the long travel, floor hinged throttle pedal all the way to it's stop. The induction noise hardens and increases in volume, the drivetrain grumbles as you accelerate through the rev range and the lack of dual mass flywheel creates harsh resonances that sound more akin to a coffee grinder. But keep accelerating and they'll disappear to leave just the mechanical sound of the flat six along with it's induction noise and the cooling fan shifting vast quantities of soothing, cool air over the barrels and cylinder heads buried within the bowels of that nondescript looking engine compartment.
At 6,800 rpm in third the game's all over and its time to start the process all over again in fourth.
A quick, gentle lift of the throttle, along with a short, quick prod of the clutch, allows you to thread the perfectly weighted, short(ish) throw, gear lever through the gate.
A corner approaches, so you lift off the throttle and change down, you get back on the throttle and turn the steering wheel, initially the helm feels stodgy, heavy and unresponsive, you curse the lack of power steering as the nose seems unwilling to cooperate with your request for a change in direction.
But wait, the wheel in front of you isn't the sole method of altering the car's trajectory, next time try using the brakes to keep the weight over the front wheels whilst you turn them, then carefully chose the moment to get back on the throttle (hard) to utilise both the grunt of that flat six AND the traction afforded as a result of its position over the rear wheels.
Suddenly 260hp seems more than enough to make indecently rapid progress, but more than that, you're a simply massive part of the process of going fast, you have to be, because without your guiding hand, your perfect timing, your ability to deftly come off the brakes and seamlessly reapply the throttle, this car doesn't steer, it needs, no relies, on you to manage it's imperfect weight distribution.
It's hot sweaty work in the summer, no aircon along with no insulation means that a large part of the heat generated by that 3.6 litre engine finds it's way into the cabin. Soon your back will be wringing wet and that "moist" feeling is only exacerbated by the leather facings on some of the most perfectly formed bucket seats ever to grace a car. Supportive enough to enable you to retain control without having to hang onto the steering wheel, but not so all enveloping as modern race seat.
On the right roads, driving experiences don't come much better, or indeed more intense.
And when you've had your hit, you'll not need to race all the way home, instead you'll be happy to potter at 6/10's, watching as other far more powerful cars overtake you, safe in the knowledge that despite what the manufacturers of their cars may tell them, their owners will have little or no idea what tactility, engagement and fun behind the wheel really are.
Finally you'll arrive home, hot, sweaty and possibly slightly deaf..... You'll undo your seatbelt, remove the keys from the ignition, wind your window up and step out.When you slam the door shut, two things will stand out :
Firstly the delightful noise the door makes when it closes. Partly a function of it's bank vault build quality, and partly the fact that it's unencumbered by door pockets, airbags, central locking motors, electric windows or their switchgear.
And the second thing that will stand out when you slam the door shut ? A light, gentle, barely discernible tinkling noise......
Those that have owned and driven these wonderful cars will most likely know what this "tinkling" noise is, whilst those that think they're an overpriced, underperforming, anachronism, probably won't. But neither will they care........
Edited by bcr5784 on Thursday 19th January 14:51
bcr5784 said:
I did deliberately use the word "modern" before Porsche in my original post. We are talking (at least I thought we were) about Caysters not the past era when Porsches were small light and didn't need power steering etc. This is actually a Boxster/Cayman forum not a Porsche one, if we are being precise.
The only thing deliberate about your post would appear to be your attempt at being obtuse...Edited by bcr5784 on Thursday 19th January 14:51
The 987 is more hardcore, raw, visceral, tactile (call it what you want) than the 981. Period. Just as 996 RS is more hardcore than a 997 GT3 RS, just as a 993 RS is more visceral and hardcore than a MK1 996 GT3, and a 964 RS is more hardcore than a 993 RS. In fact I'd say the 964 RS is probably the most hardcore of the "recent" 911's, it's hard suspension, spherical jointed strut tops, manual steering in car that was designed for PAS etc etc, see to that.
Off course a British bedstead with a Ford Crossflow shoehorned into it's engine bay is more hardcore than pretty much any roadgoing 911 built in the last 50 years, I don't think anyone is contesting that point.I'm certainly not.
Slippydiff said:
The only thing deliberate about your post would appear to be your attempt at being obtuse...
The 987 is more hardcore, raw, visceral, tactile (call it what you want) than the 981. Period. Just as 996 RS is more hardcore than a 997 GT3 RS, just as a 993 RS is more visceral and hardcore than a MK1 996 GT3, and a 964 RS is more hardcore than a 993 RS. In fact I'd say the 964 RS is probably the most hardcore of the "recent" 911's, it's hard suspension, spherical jointed strut tops, manual steering in car that was designed for PAS etc etc, see to that.
Off course a British bedstead with a Ford Crossflow shoehorned into it's engine bay is more hardcore than pretty much any roadgoing 911 built in the last 50 years, I don't think anyone is contesting that point.I'm certainly not.
No desire to be obtuse. We'll just have disagree on the use of English. The 987 is more hardcore, raw, visceral, tactile (call it what you want) than the 981. Period. Just as 996 RS is more hardcore than a 997 GT3 RS, just as a 993 RS is more visceral and hardcore than a MK1 996 GT3, and a 964 RS is more hardcore than a 993 RS. In fact I'd say the 964 RS is probably the most hardcore of the "recent" 911's, it's hard suspension, spherical jointed strut tops, manual steering in car that was designed for PAS etc etc, see to that.
Off course a British bedstead with a Ford Crossflow shoehorned into it's engine bay is more hardcore than pretty much any roadgoing 911 built in the last 50 years, I don't think anyone is contesting that point.I'm certainly not.
bcr5784 said:
No desire to be obtuse. We'll just have disagree on the use of English.
Indeed.gadgit said:
Slippydiff.
The point you are missing here is that have you ever thought that you just might be wrong on this one. I suspect that will not be the case.
In my case, I did the right thing.
I went out and drove them all, which is the best way to choose a car.
Evora, Ftype, 997, all the Caymans thats were in my price bracket TVRs Caterham, Noble, you name it......
All the 987s had fitted 19inch wheels which attempted to knock you teeth out on country roads, so that finished me on the 987....
Nice car, I just hated the cheap plastic internal door handle.
This was one of many small annoying things about the car. So unrefined, is the purfect word for the interia, but I tried hard to get through this in my head.
I went to several places trying to make myself understand the failings of the car, but as all cars get older, they Can't help but age, its a natural progression in life and sometimes you just have to move on!
I am not suggesting that the 981 is for all, but then after all this testing I went and drove my 981.
As an experienced driver I climbed into the 981.
I was actually shocked at the way the car handles. Its just sublime in the corners, beautiful driving lines in and out of the bends, with a compliant suspension that does not attack your teeth on country roads.
The 981 is a breakthrough in many ways for Porsche, the main dealer was gutted that the car was being replaced due to tree huggers.
I do understand that your 987 indeed is a great car, but in many ways its just like my old TVR Chimp........... A fantastic car to drive, but perhaps its now become a weekend car instead, and you love it. Thats all that matters.
This is what happened to my Aston Martin.....weekend car.
Still, we are all different, and its horses for courses.
Gadgit
Gadgit,The point you are missing here is that have you ever thought that you just might be wrong on this one. I suspect that will not be the case.
In my case, I did the right thing.
I went out and drove them all, which is the best way to choose a car.
Evora, Ftype, 997, all the Caymans thats were in my price bracket TVRs Caterham, Noble, you name it......
All the 987s had fitted 19inch wheels which attempted to knock you teeth out on country roads, so that finished me on the 987....
Nice car, I just hated the cheap plastic internal door handle.
This was one of many small annoying things about the car. So unrefined, is the purfect word for the interia, but I tried hard to get through this in my head.
I went to several places trying to make myself understand the failings of the car, but as all cars get older, they Can't help but age, its a natural progression in life and sometimes you just have to move on!
I am not suggesting that the 981 is for all, but then after all this testing I went and drove my 981.
As an experienced driver I climbed into the 981.
I was actually shocked at the way the car handles. Its just sublime in the corners, beautiful driving lines in and out of the bends, with a compliant suspension that does not attack your teeth on country roads.
The 981 is a breakthrough in many ways for Porsche, the main dealer was gutted that the car was being replaced due to tree huggers.
I do understand that your 987 indeed is a great car, but in many ways its just like my old TVR Chimp........... A fantastic car to drive, but perhaps its now become a weekend car instead, and you love it. Thats all that matters.
This is what happened to my Aston Martin.....weekend car.
Still, we are all different, and its horses for courses.
Gadgit
Firstly, have you ever considered YOU may be wrong ? I suspect not ...
But lets clarify a few things before going any further. For the record, I have no axe to grind, at this moment I own no vehicles manufactured by Porsche in Stuttgart, let alone a Cayman in any of it's iterations.
I too consider myself an "experienced driver" whatever that may be ?? (for the record I'm 53)
May I politely suggest you take the trouble to view this thread page
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
and study my previous Porsche ownership before posting on matters of experience in anything Porsche
Of course my opinion may be "wrong", but it is at least based on numerous ownership experiences !None of the various 911's I've owned over the years have been used as daily drivers (except my first 996 GT2 which frequently got used for a weekly commute between N.Wales and the Midlands) as from my perspective (and it is only my perspective) using Porsche GT cars on a daily basis, makes them seem less "special" to me, in short, one becomes blase about their benefits, hence they were weekend "toys" and I could ignore or accept their many and varied foibles accordingly.
But furthermore I drive between 25-30k miles PA and whilst the beautifully specced 981 S I test drove recently would've made an excellent daily, I have a German diesel saloon for such mundane day to day driving duties and thus considered buying the Cayman as a toy for weekends, high days and holidays. Alas for me it was too refined, too sanitized and just too, dare I say it ? "ordinary". But whilst that was the case for me, I totally understand it isn't for others.
And far be it for me to try and convince them otherwise.Hi Slippydiff, - I love the descriptive way you have communicated thoughts and feelings above regarding the driving experience of some of your earlier cars. I will cherish them going forward. Also thanks for directing us to some of the pictures of your past vehicles. Your passion for the brand shines through.
Coming back to the discussion however, we all have our opinions on what is best, what we like / dislike etc.. I have owned a 987 Cayman S, a 981 Boxster S, a 997 C2 and currently a 981 Spyder. I must admit that I have loved them all and all have had their little niggles. However. I was at Porsche the "Porsches at the Glen" event last summer and I spoke to a few owners of various Porsches from some worth at little as £5K to others worth in excess of £200K. Needless to say the Guy with the £5K car was as much of a happy enthusiast as some of the more fortunate guys with the fancy cars.The point is I don't think there is a best car as such but a best car for you the individual depending on what you can afford and how you are going to use it, we all have different tastes (by the way I would have loved to have owned some of your previous cars). Personally I have the same problem as a lot of owners, I just like the thrill of changing my car every so often and I always seem to strive for something I perceive as better. I am beginning to get an itch again and the Spyder will be going. Perhaps another 911? who knows
Coming back to the discussion however, we all have our opinions on what is best, what we like / dislike etc.. I have owned a 987 Cayman S, a 981 Boxster S, a 997 C2 and currently a 981 Spyder. I must admit that I have loved them all and all have had their little niggles. However. I was at Porsche the "Porsches at the Glen" event last summer and I spoke to a few owners of various Porsches from some worth at little as £5K to others worth in excess of £200K. Needless to say the Guy with the £5K car was as much of a happy enthusiast as some of the more fortunate guys with the fancy cars.The point is I don't think there is a best car as such but a best car for you the individual depending on what you can afford and how you are going to use it, we all have different tastes (by the way I would have loved to have owned some of your previous cars). Personally I have the same problem as a lot of owners, I just like the thrill of changing my car every so often and I always seem to strive for something I perceive as better. I am beginning to get an itch again and the Spyder will be going. Perhaps another 911? who knows
Edited by wdpor on Thursday 19th January 19:49
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