Child's booster seat in bucket seats?
Discussion
jimmyslr said:
braddo said:
No need to be so hysterical, dreamcar and robograd.
Parents manage risk for their children every day in a myriad of ways. If a child seat fits snugly in a modern Porsche's bucket seat, with the seatbelt in a safe position for the child, that is hardly out on the high-risk end of the spectrum, no matter what official Porsche guidance says.
For a bit of perspective, consider small kids who compete in motocross, or even BMX, or rugby, or kart racing.
Or surfing.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/ja...
I'm with Braddo on this. It is an everyday activity to make judgements about my own and my children's safety, balanced with a set of life experiences and some practicality. My boys ski, ride bikes, play rugby and so on. Each of those often results in injury but the pros outweigh the cons. In car terms one could say that only the safest car would do and a Porsche would never be safe enough. One could do the school run inside a tank or maybe take a risk and only go with a Hummer. This is not a black or white thing, it's graduated. Parents manage risk for their children every day in a myriad of ways. If a child seat fits snugly in a modern Porsche's bucket seat, with the seatbelt in a safe position for the child, that is hardly out on the high-risk end of the spectrum, no matter what official Porsche guidance says.
For a bit of perspective, consider small kids who compete in motocross, or even BMX, or rugby, or kart racing.
Or surfing.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/ja...
As to Porsche being all knowing I do think that is flawed. It is much easier and more sensible for a manufacturer to make expedient decisions. In this instance to approve a child seat with anything other than isofix is probably heretical now. Also there must be no end of testing before anything gets approved and the cost vs benefit of testing and adapting bucket seats is not worth it. Thus, easier to say don't do it, clearly and categorically, no get out. If they are anything other than categorical they are leaving themselves open. That's doesn't make them correct, it makes them expedient. Taking my last point a step further, look at Porsche and the debates around N rated tyres, using the OEM battery etc etc. These things lock in aftesales and are tied to warranty; it's money not the finest of equipment that is at stake here.
So, if one can objectively reach their own view that is considered and balanced rather than blasé then I think that can be OK. I have carefully examined the seats in my cars, how they interact with child seats, where the belts sit, air bag, how far the seat goes back, side impact and so on. I've done that and decided that the set up works for my boys in my cars. I've also looked at the variety of child seats in cars on offer and I'm happy that the occasional usage of my bucket seat set up is likely better than many. And the boys love it. It's a judgement call.
As a parent we all make judgement calls and hopefully base them on a number of factors available to us at any given time.
I consider it very unlikely that Porsche would have ever considered to gain any specific approval for the use of a child 'booster type' seat in any competition bucket seat as it would hardly have been a priority of the GT department. Therefore to put a blanket 'not suitable for child seats' warning was their only other option.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Nay, you are welcome to an opinion. As a rule, I've made it a rule to not react to keyboard warriors, as to do so only feeds the beast, but in your case I feel a duty of care to you.There may, indeed, be a small element of truth in your first post on this subject. As I've indicated Porsche's advice is born of an amalgam of reasons: not my proposed reasons, not yours, nor anyone else's- but their's & their's alone, based on a multifaceted risk analysis. Unless Porsche reveal the reason, all will be speculation; even your learned input. Sadly, for the umpteenth time on Pistonhead forums your capacity to take down a balanced discussion on a subject has come the fore.
I'm probably misquoting here but I think it was Marcus Aurelius who opined: 'all that you read or hear is opinion, not fact: all that you see is a perspective, not truth' . The truth is what we choose to believe, given an array of different inputs & our own prejudices.
I do fervently disagree with gutter responses. You, sir, are allowed your opinions & views: I am allowed an alternative perspective. To debase the argument in such an aggressive manner is unbecoming, but in your particular case completely predictable.
I don't remember attracting such invective from you WHEN praising you. You display all the unedifying qualities of a sociopath: dear Trumplethinskin comes to mind here. You have a problem I cannot rectify. You are quite capable of reasoned argument but you dilute that capability with unnecessary aggression. Respect for other's opinions should be your mantra.
Returning to your quote above, no I won't ***off, but I'll make a special rule never to give YOU the oxygen of a reply again.
Now to quote you "rant over". Or do you have a copyright on that.
I returned to this thread after a week because there was no substantive evidence or understanding of why Porsche put this warning in their literature, still appears to be the case.
I'm with cmoose, I believe it's protection against possible litigation and nothing more that causes Porsche to advise what they do in this regard. If they specified a reason behind their warning (which they don't) then I'd happily take notice.
Until somebody has some solid evidence to the contrary I will continue to make my own view and take whatever steps I deem safe where my child is concerned. I wold rather refer to independent experts advice or follow current legislation rather than a car manufacturer who have more regard for their reputation and their share price than any child or indeed that of a forum twerp who just wants the last word in every argument.
I'm with cmoose, I believe it's protection against possible litigation and nothing more that causes Porsche to advise what they do in this regard. If they specified a reason behind their warning (which they don't) then I'd happily take notice.
Until somebody has some solid evidence to the contrary I will continue to make my own view and take whatever steps I deem safe where my child is concerned. I wold rather refer to independent experts advice or follow current legislation rather than a car manufacturer who have more regard for their reputation and their share price than any child or indeed that of a forum twerp who just wants the last word in every argument.
woollyjoe said:
The seats don't pass the required criteria for child safety because child seats don't fit, so to sell the car with buckets, the law dictates the sign must be there - not Porsche. Think I mentioned this before?
Wrong, there are plenty of seats that fit, I have 2 different seats that both fit in mine correctly. Next?
I'm a bit wary of joining this thread because it seems that nobody's right, but here goes...
I faced the same dilemma when I had a spyder with buckets. I was gutted when I read the clear instruction in the handbook not to fit a child seat. Except I didn't find it quite so clear the more I read and re-read it. Now I honestly can't remember whether I concluded it applied to boosters, high-backed boosters or front-facing child seats.
Anyway I do remember being unhappy with the fit of any of the selection of boosters we had to hand, so made my own from foam and alcantara!! It fitted the seat snugly, but I'm not sure that's the only thing that matters. The buckets aren't adjustable for rake and if I remember, my research at the time suggested that part of the reason for instructing not to use a child seat was the risk of sliding under the belt in a frontal impact. I also recall having to insert a cushion behind my son, I think because the depth of the seat meant that the belt wasn't taught across his chest (and of course I couldn't adjust the rake - and all the advice was to locate the seat as far back possible because of the risk of injury from the airbag).
Anyway regardless of how well you can fit your child into the seat, I also remember something about the airbag being designed for adult passengers and not children. Explosive force, height and reach (among other things I expect) are all variables. If you spec buckets, do Porsche fit slightly different airbags too?...
In the end I bottled it. There were too many unanswered questions and things that wouldn't be put to the test except in an accident. Doubtless even so my son would have been better protected than in my previous TVR, Lotus or Alpina, but it wasn't a risk I was prepared to take.
Finally I am sure the new regulations on child seats DO render the use of existing boosters illegal for certain heights/weights of children. In fact isn't the law basically banning boosters and obliging high-backed boosters for all children deemed to need a child seat?
I faced the same dilemma when I had a spyder with buckets. I was gutted when I read the clear instruction in the handbook not to fit a child seat. Except I didn't find it quite so clear the more I read and re-read it. Now I honestly can't remember whether I concluded it applied to boosters, high-backed boosters or front-facing child seats.
Anyway I do remember being unhappy with the fit of any of the selection of boosters we had to hand, so made my own from foam and alcantara!! It fitted the seat snugly, but I'm not sure that's the only thing that matters. The buckets aren't adjustable for rake and if I remember, my research at the time suggested that part of the reason for instructing not to use a child seat was the risk of sliding under the belt in a frontal impact. I also recall having to insert a cushion behind my son, I think because the depth of the seat meant that the belt wasn't taught across his chest (and of course I couldn't adjust the rake - and all the advice was to locate the seat as far back possible because of the risk of injury from the airbag).
Anyway regardless of how well you can fit your child into the seat, I also remember something about the airbag being designed for adult passengers and not children. Explosive force, height and reach (among other things I expect) are all variables. If you spec buckets, do Porsche fit slightly different airbags too?...
In the end I bottled it. There were too many unanswered questions and things that wouldn't be put to the test except in an accident. Doubtless even so my son would have been better protected than in my previous TVR, Lotus or Alpina, but it wasn't a risk I was prepared to take.
Finally I am sure the new regulations on child seats DO render the use of existing boosters illegal for certain heights/weights of children. In fact isn't the law basically banning boosters and obliging high-backed boosters for all children deemed to need a child seat?
griffter said:
Finally I am sure the new regulations on child seats DO render the use of existing boosters illegal for certain heights/weights of children. In fact isn't the law basically banning boosters and obliging high-backed boosters for all children deemed to need a child seat?
From what I can find the new regs do not outlaw backless booster seats - it just raises the minimum weight (and height?) for a child to use them, from 15kg to 22kg. Therefore, kids around the 7-12 years range can still use them.olly22n said:
dreamcar said:
Thank you Robograd. Sadly hospitals and undertakers are kept busy with arrogant and stupid people who think they know best and believe "it will never happen to them". They can choose to be foolish and irresponsible, sadly young children cannot. Perhaps these idiots don't even care.
Precisely. I went one step further and have stopped my daughter leaving her bedroom due to the stairs and paedophiles. Its the only way to be sure. I am a little perturbed that you would not only allow your children outside, but also to travel in mobile metal death boxes to be honest. How dare you RISK your childs life like that?Edited by dreamcar on Tuesday 24th January 07:15
You are making dangerous choices on their behalf and it disgusts me.
I really don't get the heated debate though, it's not hard is it?
Two things;
1. there is the legal or manufacturers recommendation aspect which in all likelihood is because it is deemed not safe enough for current ideal standards, and most probably this is backed by fairly rigorous testing.
2. Personal appetite for risk.
First off number one is forever changing, but also it never overwrites old standards. For example does anyone really think bombing around in a MK1 escort (or any classic for that matter) with Billy 5 in a backless booster is safer then a properly installed seat in a modern Porsche? One is legal, the other is not legal/recommended.
Second some people elect to take their kids rock climbing, horse riding or taking their kids pillion on motorcycles. Is this, because there is no laws against it, safer then strapping your little one into a well installed car seat in a modern Porsche with buckets? In my mind no.
I don't see any point in vitriol from either camp, as it is obviously not clear cut (legal or not).
I highly doubt the recommendation against child seats in buckets is because of instant death in case of an accident.
Edit. And obviously I have nothing against people following manufacturers recommendations, as it is probably best practice to do so. It's just I don't think the difference between best practice and other considered approaches equals to instant death.
Edited by fredt on Wednesday 1st February 12:10
woollyjoe said:
beanoir said:
Wrong, there are plenty of seats that fit, I have 2 different seats that both fit in mine correctly.
Next?
You clearly know more than the people who approve cars for sale. They are the ones who dictate the warning must be present, not Porsche.Next?
In other words, If the people who approve cars agreed with you're criteria for "fit", then they would not require the warning.
I don't know more than them, so can't argue they are wrong. Not interested in arguing they are wrong either.
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