Would you buy a 987 Boxster with 106k on the clock?

[Lox]

Rockster said:

my 2002 Boxster with over 308K miles

I love these updates! Congrats on passing the 300 milestone

[battered]

gadgit said:

battered said:

I'm pointing out that my sheds hand in no ridiculous bills, so why should a Porsche be different?

So why should a Porsche be any different????
Thats tells me a lot ??

Gadgit

How many question marks? What exactly does my question tell you?

I'm asking why a Porsche should be different to any other modern car that has been properly assembled and properly maintained for 100k miles. I have 2 modern, competently screwed together motor cars. One, a Mondeo, is 14 years old and showing 130k miles. It has no significant mechanical wear to major components, drives well and receives normal servicing and repairs to worn out bits of brakes and suspension as required. It's inexpensive. The same goes for my MX5 - it's 18 yrs old, 97k, sound, drives well, and other than trivial bits of broken trim and some age related corrosion, both of which are obvious on inspection, it's a great car. I will take either of them anywhere, in fact the Mondy is currently racking up over 2k miles a month without incident.

So why is a Porsche a different proposition? Is it different? I'm making the assumption that they have no significant design flaws that mean that they will go bang shortly after 100k miles, that they have been reasonably well maintained and properly screwed together at the factory. Both Ford and Mazda manage this, so Porsche can too, with the obvious caveat that a set of brakes on a Mondeo is £100 plus labour and a Porsche is going to be 5x that. Or do you know different?

[Heaveho]

battered said:

How many question marks? What exactly does my question tell you?

I'm asking why a Porsche should be different to any other modern car that has been properly assembled and properly maintained for 100k miles. I have 2 modern, competently screwed together motor cars. One, a Mondeo, is 14 years old and showing 130k miles. It has no significant mechanical wear to major components, drives well and receives normal servicing and repairs to worn out bits of brakes and suspension as required. It's inexpensive. The same goes for my MX5 - it's 18 yrs old, 97k, sound, drives well, and other than trivial bits of broken trim and some age related corrosion, both of which are obvious on inspection, it's a great car. I will take either of them anywhere, in fact the Mondy is currently racking up over 2k miles a month without incident.

So why is a Porsche a different proposition? Is it different? I'm making the assumption that they have no significant design flaws that mean that they will go bang shortly after 100k miles, that they have been reasonably well maintained and properly screwed together at the factory. Both Ford and Mazda manage this, so Porsche can too, with the obvious caveat that a set of brakes on a Mondeo is £100 plus labour and a Porsche is going to be 5x that. Or do you know different?

I'm in agreement with most of your post, but, depending on which model, and what year (s) we're talking about, the 987 does actually have a couple of potentially serious design flaws, one being the IMS bearing, the other is bore scoring, the latter more associated with the 3.4 engine. A relatively small amount of the overall numbers seem to be affected, but when it does happen, it's a scary bill. There are lots of theories as to why these things occur, and in what circumstances, but it " seems " to be lower mileage cars with less enthusiastic use that suffer more. Hence why there's a reasonable argument for considering a well looked after higher mileage car that's been used rather than parked or driven gently. Cmoose is your guy here, he's more knowledgeable than me about the potential problems and pitfalls.

I'm of the opinion that 20k service intervals on anything, let alone a potentially hard driven performance car , won't be doing much to help longevity. I change the oil and filter every 5k. I was initially nervous about owning a 987, but you learn to just enjoy them and stop fretting after a while. I'm on my third one now.

Edited by Heaveho on Tuesday 21st February 10:09

[edc]

battered said:

How many question marks? What exactly does my question tell you?

I'm asking why a Porsche should be different to any other modern car that has been properly assembled and properly maintained for 100k miles. I have 2 modern, competently screwed together motor cars. One, a Mondeo, is 14 years old and showing 130k miles. It has no significant mechanical wear to major components, drives well and receives normal servicing and repairs to worn out bits of brakes and suspension as required. It's inexpensive. The same goes for my MX5 - it's 18 yrs old, 97k, sound, drives well, and other than trivial bits of broken trim and some age related corrosion, both of which are obvious on inspection, it's a great car. I will take either of them anywhere, in fact the Mondy is currently racking up over 2k miles a month without incident.

So why is a Porsche a different proposition? Is it different? I'm making the assumption that they have no significant design flaws that mean that they will go bang shortly after 100k miles, that they have been reasonably well maintained and properly screwed together at the factory. Both Ford and Mazda manage this, so Porsche can too, with the obvious caveat that a set of brakes on a Mondeo is £100 plus labour and a Porsche is going to be 5x that. Or do you know different?

In many respects it isn't any different. But, this type of car is all about the set up and the handling, and you feel it when it is not 100%. By it's nature it's a car you drive hard and push so these things show up in those situations.

In fact the components are made by all the same usual manufacturers who also supply others in the car industry so the components themselves are not shoddy as such. Nobody cares if there 10 year old Mondeo doesn't handle quite as good as new. Indeed, many won't notice as it just wafts or crawls about for much of the time with a sedentary lifestyle.

[ooid]

battered said:

How many question marks? What exactly does my question tell you?

I'm asking why a Porsche should be different to any other modern car that has been properly assembled and properly maintained for 100k miles.

It is simply different. Flat 6 mid-engine car that being manufactured in big numbers during late 90's where Porsche did not have a big production experience unlike Ford or Mazda.

[battered]

That's starting to make sense. So what we are saying is that Porsche aren't as well screwed together as they are reputed to be, the old adages about 911s being immune to mileage, buy on condition alone, etc, don't really apply to the 986/987, and the known faults (IMS, scoring, etc) may well be apparent between 100k and 150k? Thanks for that.

I get the "this is a performance car" bit, but the same applies to my scruffy bit-of-fun MX5. OK, it's not a performance car as such, but it's driven with verve most of the time and if I think it's getting baggy I will fix it.

What frequency do they fail/how old/how do you test for the known faults of the 986/987 then?

[ooid]

Rockster's previous message is quite informative I think. It's all about research as it's not a "Ford" or "Mazda", not because of badge or anything it's completely different design and use. All 986/987's currently are under-valued imho but one has to be careful and check many things before buying these to enjoy.

[edc]

battered said:

That's starting to make sense. So what we are saying is that Porsche aren't as well screwed together as they are reputed to be, the old adages about 911s being immune to mileage, buy on condition alone, etc, don't really apply to the 986/987, and the known faults (IMS, scoring, etc) may well be apparent between 100k and 150k? Thanks for that.

I get the "this is a performance car" bit, but the same applies to my scruffy bit-of-fun MX5. OK, it's not a performance car as such, but it's driven with verve most of the time and if I think it's getting baggy I will fix it.

What frequency do they fail/how old/how do you test for the known faults of the 986/987 then?

You should buy a 986 or 987 on condition. Do your homework as some may be afflicted by IMS and some definitely won't. Same for bore scoring. The arbitrary mileage you write doesn't really help you.

These 'faults' seem like big deals but I'm sure if you spend enough time you will find similar afflictions for other cars. What about vanos issues on BMW, or swirl flaps self destructing those engines too. I more recently have got a Ford Ecoboost and also read of dodgy coolant pipes on the 1.0 which effectively toast the engine.

[battered]

edc said:

Nobody cares if there 10 year old Mondeo doesn't handle quite as good as new. Indeed, many won't notice as it just wafts or crawls about for much of the time with a sedentary lifestyle.

How very dare you! Mine is a finely honed performance machine, its responses catlike as it dominates the stairs of Lane 3 of the M11, every surface gleaming in the sunlight. I have a run-of-the-mill 2.7 RS for the shops. It's only an old thing, 1973. Still, it's OK for the shops.

[edc]

battered said:

edc said:

Nobody cares if there 10 year old Mondeo doesn't handle quite as good as new. Indeed, many won't notice as it just wafts or crawls about for much of the time with a sedentary lifestyle.

How very dare you! Mine is a finely honed performance machine, its responses catlike as it dominates the stairs of Lane 3 of the M11, every surface gleaming in the sunlight. I have a run-of-the-mill 2.7 RS for the shops. It's only an old thing, 1973. Still, it's OK for the shops.

I ran a 10 year old C55 AMG alongside my 10 year old Boxster. It cost more to purchase than the Boxster. It had some wear in the bushes and visually not too different for similar age and wear bush for a Boxster. They weren't in any desperate need of replacement. I could barely tell the difference in driving compared to a Boxster. I put this down to several things including such as the whole car is generally a lot softer, so any clonks or slop/play are all absorbed into the suspension.The Boxster doesn't so much absorb this but keeps on transferring it to the next part until you feel it. Basically you just don't feel the wear/play/deterioration in the suspension components like you would in your Porsche. The upside to this is the Porsche feels connected and pliable whereas a saloon car starts off less precise and more sloppy and only continues that way so you barely notice until a part is almost critical. The downside is when the suspension goes 'off' you know very quickly. If you drove your Porsche up and down the Motorway for 10's of 1,000's of miles rather than the B road bashing it gets then things of course will wear differently.

[Heaveho]

My experiences tend to suggest that German stuff simply isn't as reliable or tolerant as Japanese stuff, partly because of what I've seen when working in the motor trade. I don't like leaving the Porsche sitting undriven for long periods because I feel ( and read ) that they are more likely to develop problems than a Jap car in the same situation. My 13 year old Evo sits for months at a time, but in a long line of stuff owned, it's almost unquestionably the most dependable car I've owned. I just start it and drive it whenever I want to use it, the brakes are always fine, it doesn't even rattle the tappets after 6 months stood. I'm very happy with my current Boxster, but hand on heart, don't feel like I could treat it the same way as the Evo ( or even my 28 year old MR2, which also stands for long periods ) without consequences. They just don't seem to like periods of inactivity.

[ooid]

Evo is a great car, but again wrong comparison imho. It's a sports sedan but Boxster is a mid-engine roadster where 986/987 uses first water-cooled flat 6 engine with high volume mass-production. If any japanese brand would try to make a car with these features/design within the budget requirements, the results would have been much different. Actually, as far as I know, Porsche commissioned several Japanese value engineers from Honda or Toyota -not sure-, in order to develop 996/986 platform so much of these pros and cons thanks to Japanese chaps from mid 90s.

[brickwall]

Things to look for:
- Suspension: Coil springs (cracked/snapped). £500 per corner.
- Cooling system: Check the metal pipework at the front isn't cracked/corroded. £500 to replace.
- A/C rads: They can corrode, or get damaged from stone chips. Once they start leaking they're £600+ to replace.
- AOS: If it drives OK it's hard to tell if it's on the way out...not a massive issue anyway as it's a £200 job to replace

Tyres - a set of rears is £350, a set of fronts £250.

[edc]

brickwall said:

Things to look for:
- Suspension: Coil springs (cracked/snapped). £500 per corner.
- Cooling system: Check the metal pipework at the front isn't cracked/corroded. £500 to replace.
- A/C rads: They can corrode, or get damaged from stone chips. Once they start leaking they're £600+ to replace.
- AOS: If it drives OK it's hard to tell if it's on the way out...not a massive issue anyway as it's a £200 job to replace

Tyres - a set of rears is £350, a set of fronts £250.

Not sure where you are buying your parts but you can buy a full set of H&R springs for circa £300 an AC condenser for sub £50.

[ATM]

edc said:

brickwall said:

Things to look for:
- Suspension: Coil springs (cracked/snapped). £500 per corner.
- Cooling system: Check the metal pipework at the front isn't cracked/corroded. £500 to replace.
- A/C rads: They can corrode, or get damaged from stone chips. Once they start leaking they're £600+ to replace.
- AOS: If it drives OK it's hard to tell if it's on the way out...not a massive issue anyway as it's a £200 job to replace

Tyres - a set of rears is £350, a set of fronts £250.

Not sure where you are buying your parts but you can buy a full set of H&R springs for circa £300 an AC condenser for sub £50.

Maybe he is including labour.

[brickwall]

ATM said:

edc said:

brickwall said:

Things to look for:
- Suspension: Coil springs (cracked/snapped). £500 per corner.
- Cooling system: Check the metal pipework at the front isn't cracked/corroded. £500 to replace.
- A/C rads: They can corrode, or get damaged from stone chips. Once they start leaking they're £600+ to replace.
- AOS: If it drives OK it's hard to tell if it's on the way out...not a massive issue anyway as it's a £200 job to replace

Tyres - a set of rears is £350, a set of fronts £250.

Not sure where you are buying your parts but you can buy a full set of H&R springs for circa £300 an AC condenser for sub £50.

Maybe he is including labour.

I am indeed including labour

[edc]

If it does include labour then it must be OPC parts and rates as a condenser change can come in at less than half the above price. At £500 a corner per spring or £2k I had a full M030 kit fitted with change left over in the £100s.

[ooid]

brickwall said:

- A/C rads: They can corrode, or get damaged from stone chips. Once they start leaking they're £600+ to replace.

Got two brand new radiators last summer (IES) for 180 GBP in total (design911 discount) + 80 something for labour. I do not have A.C. though so no expense on the condenser department.

[ATM]

ooid said:

brickwall said:

- A/C rads: They can corrode, or get damaged from stone chips. Once they start leaking they're £600+ to replace.

Got two brand new radiators last summer (IES) for 180 GBP in total (design911 discount) + 80 something for labour. I do not have A.C. though so no expense on the condenser department.

No ac and 16 inch wheels - poverty spec at its best.

[StrokesUK]

ooid said:

Evo is a great car, but again wrong comparison imho. It's a sports sedan but Boxster is a mid-engine roadster where 986/987 uses first water-cooled flat 6 engine with high volume mass-production. If any japanese brand would try to make a car with these features/design within the budget requirements, the results would have been much different. Actually, as far as I know, Porsche commissioned several Japanese value engineers from Honda or Toyota -not sure-, in order to develop 996/986 platform so much of these pros and cons thanks to Japanese chaps from mid 90s.

Subaru have been building water cooled flat sixes of similar capacity since the late eighties.