UK 951 Race Cars - Where are they?

[Richair]

Well just to update this I'm pleased to say my build is happening: there's a broad build plan, parts are being acquired and the car is off the road with it's front end removed as I've started work on a few things.

I'm currently fitting a larger oil cooler, removing PAS (the rack is currently in pieces on my work bench as I'm doing it the proper cup-car way), I've chopped much of the IC inlet end tank off and I'm fabricating a new tank, I'm replacing the rad and fitting a lighter jap alternator (I've already ditched the AC). I've also acquired a pair of rebuilt 996T 'monoblock' calipers and have decided to convert the hubs to late offset as the hubs and spindles are stronger and the availability of wheels is much more straight forwards. In fact a set of 996 17" 'twist' wheels arrived this week there's a lot better choice of 17 tyres too and they're a lot cheaper. I plan on using 993 Carrera discs which will bolt straight up to the later hubs and I'll fab up my own caliper mounts. I'm after a set of late offset hubs and spindles if anyone knows of any going spare...

Other plans at this time also include fitting a Garrett T3/T4e 50-trim turbo in place of the old K26/6, which should be a decent match for the 2.5 and I'll probably VEMS and of course higher flow and more modern injectors. I'll lift the motor to fit the turbo as I'll need to fab up a new crossover pipe, so I'll also renew the big-end shells, reinforce the oil pickup, fit baffles and fit a lighter flywheel/clutch. FIA cage, 4.25l extinguisher and a decent seat will also be going in.

Lots to be getting on with!!!

[Kawasicki]

andy97 said:

Wayne maintains he wasnt cheating. The rules stated that the car had to give 250 bhp + or - 5% (if memory serves) on Bob Watson's rolling road. They did! And were tested numerous times.

The fact was there was another map activated when the front wheels turned (shades of VW, perhaps)!

How did the ecu know whether the front wheels were turning or not?

[andy97]

No idea, you'd have to ask Wayne, he is still around.

[Richair]

I'm pretty sure he's still working out of Ninemeister at Warrington. He mapped my old 106 Rallye hill climb car from there a couple of years back. I certainly plan on going back to him with this car.

[eldavo]

Kawasicki said:

andy97 said:

Wayne maintains he wasnt cheating. The rules stated that the car had to give 250 bhp + or - 5% (if memory serves) on Bob Watson's rolling road. They did! And were tested numerous times.

The fact was there was another map activated when the front wheels turned (shades of VW, perhaps)!

How did the ecu know whether the front wheels were turning or not?

You can select different maps on the chips via the region coding plug so I'd imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to piggy back the ABS computer signals to electronically switch the maps when the ABS sensors showed all four wheels turning.

[eldavo]

Richair said:

Well just to update this I'm pleased to say my build is happening: there's a broad build plan, parts are being acquired and the car is off the road with it's front end removed as I've started work on a few things.

I'm currently fitting a larger oil cooler, removing PAS (the rack is currently in pieces on my work bench as I'm doing it the proper cup-car way), I've chopped much of the IC inlet end tank off and I'm fabricating a new tank, I'm replacing the rad and fitting a lighter jap alternator (I've already ditched the AC). I've also acquired a pair of rebuilt 996T 'monoblock' calipers and have decided to convert the hubs to late offset as the hubs and spindles are stronger and the availability of wheels is much more straight forwards. In fact a set of 996 17" 'twist' wheels arrived this week there's a lot better choice of 17 tyres too and they're a lot cheaper. I plan on using 993 Carrera discs which will bolt straight up to the later hubs and I'll fab up my own caliper mounts. I'm after a set of late offset hubs and spindles if anyone knows of any going spare...

Other plans at this time also include fitting a Garrett T3/T4e 50-trim turbo in place of the old K26/6, which should be a decent match for the 2.5 and I'll probably VEMS and of course higher flow and more modern injectors. I'll lift the motor to fit the turbo as I'll need to fab up a new crossover pipe, so I'll also renew the big-end shells, reinforce the oil pickup, fit baffles and fit a lighter flywheel/clutch. FIA cage, 4.25l extinguisher and a decent seat will also be going in.

Lots to be getting on with!!!

I'm very tempted by VEMS from a cost effectiveness point of view over the Augment system so will be eagerly awaiting the results. I want the end tank mod doing on my intercooler too (but again, the company offering this service in the UK seems very expensive) so if you fancy doing another or can share the details so I can get it done locally then that would be awesome !

[Richair]

eldavo said:

I'm very tempted by VEMS from a cost effectiveness point of view over the Augment system so will be eagerly awaiting the results. I want the end tank mod doing on my intercooler too (but again, the company offering this service in the UK seems very expensive) so if you fancy doing another or can share the details so I can get it done locally then that would be awesome !

One of the biggest factors for me choosing VEMS over Augment is price, but also the features Peep is able to offer. It's a well established system but seems not to be very popular over here which I presume to be due to the popularity of Megasquirt... And although it's not as popular as Megasquirt, it's still reasonably well supported and is fully open source. Augment looks great, but what happens with regards to support if something happens to them?..

I'm mid way through doing my end tank so I'll let you know how it goes. My time is limited, but I may be up for doing another one or two. I've been meaning to get a project thread going on tipec and/or pccgb so keep an eye on there

[Richair]

So I've created a Facebook page as it's the easiest way to post updates. Search for Dick Harman Motorsport and like the page if you want to follow what I'm up to. This is not a chequebook built car, I will be doing as much of the work as possible (I'm a engineer so I live for this stuff) so I hope it will be an interesting read.

R

[eldavo]

Following 👍

[ravon]

I own Mark K's old 944Turbo racing car, I've spent an awful lot of money on it, undertaken a very diligent run-in on it's new EMC built engine, and for a variety of reasons never used it in anger . It's for sale at EMC if anyone is interested ?

[Richair]

Interesting... How far away from being road legal is it? What's the broad spec?

[Richair]

Obviously I'll keep people updated on the VEMS side of things as and when I get round to management, which is now likely to be later in the year if not next winter.

I popped along to EMC over the Xmas break to take a look at ravon's (Mark's old) car and it was very nice and has clearly has an awful lot of money thrown at it recently! It's ready to go, but the spec doesn't quite accord with my plans so I'm pressing on with my build. It was good to go any view another Turbo racer though, they also had a US 951 racer someone has imported (anyone on here?). Although some aspects of that car were more of a lesson in how not to it, as EMC are correcting a few issues/mods apparently picked up in its time in the US. Let's just say a certain US-based 951 tuner's parts catalogue had been thrown at it...

Off to Autosport next weekend to chat to more companies regarding roll cages and to check out a load of other bits I have in mind for the build.

[eldavo]

I'm heading there on the Sunday - drop me a message on FB if you're around then.

[Richair]

I'm going on Saturday I'm afraid bud, shame as it would have been good to put a face to the name...

[9e 28]

Amazing platform/chassis the 944 even today.

GT3 v 944 turbo (shame the 944 doesn't have a better/quicker driver - only the grunt of the turbo and a forgiving GT3 driver keeps him ahead)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS54sGBr01I

[NJH]

Use EMC to install the Custom Cages solution weld in multipoint. I think that has to be the best cage these days for a 944/968.

[Richair]

NJH said:

Use EMC to install the Custom Cages solution weld in multipoint. I think that has to be the best cage these days for a 944/968.

I agree having seen their work and the cage in question, as it seems like its the only cage that fully ties into the front turrets and has fully triangulated A-pillars. Kevin pointed out to me the limitations of the alternative offerings and some of the front end damage he'd seen and the potential risks of not going all the way to the front of the car. However I don't think it's the right solution for me as the car will be kept road legal and must retain a certain level of 'comfort', but I haven't fully ruled them out yet and clearly they are good at what they do. There are some other factors thrown into the equation that I'm not prepared to write on a public forum.

I'm building the car along the lines of a 'historic' car and some level of trim will be retained, which can't be with the Custom Cages FIA install- I also hillclimb and I'm trying to keep the car legal for Class 1c as the car would be completely outgunned in 2c (hillclimb mod-prod cars are very different to circuit cars when you look at them in detail, plus I don't have the budget for slicks as well as 1B tyres); any cage that ties in to the suspension mounting points isn't legal for roadgoing and nor would I be able to retain much trim.

That's not to say I'm resorting to fitting a 'toy' cage, but I have a brief that other installs seem to satisfy whilst providing a good level of safety. Bear in mind that I'm not preparing this car to compete week-in week-out, I'm building it with fun in mind and it has to be versatile. I fully understand this also means it will be compromised in some areas...

[andy97]

ted 191 said:

hondansx said:

David Botterill is someone i have raced against in GT Cup in the past. Might be worth a Google

The reality is a BMW or similar is going to give you far more access to a wider range of events, but i know what it's like to have a 'project'!

David bought my old car, although there isn't much left of it !

David was out in his 944T last weekend at Croft racing in the Northern Sports and Saloons series, I think.

He still has his 924CGT as well.

Off topic but I went and had a look at the GT Cup races at Donington this weekend as a mate of mine was helping run an Aston GT4. It's fair to say that GT Cup has moved on a lot from being able to run a 944T in it. The GT4 cars are the slowest class now and the winners were in a brand new Bentley Continental GT3 car which must have cost the thick end of £300K and most teams had transporters that would cost more than my house! At least the Bentley had the engine in the right place I suppose.

[hondansx]

9e 28 said:

Amazing platform/chassis the 944 even today.

GT3 v 944 turbo (shame the 944 doesn't have a better/quicker driver - only the grunt of the turbo and a forgiving GT3 driver keeps him ahead)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS54sGBr01I

What makes it an amazing platform then, out of curiosity?

That video doesn't really sell the 944; it is extremely modified and yet gets in the way at every corner.

[andy97]

hondansx said:

9e 28 said:

Amazing platform/chassis the 944 even today.

GT3 v 944 turbo (shame the 944 doesn't have a better/quicker driver - only the grunt of the turbo and a forgiving GT3 driver keeps him ahead)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS54sGBr01I

What makes it an amazing platform then, out of curiosity?

That video doesn't really sell the 944; it is extremely modified and yet gets in the way at every corner.

I haven't had the pleasure of driving a GT3, nor likely to, but I have driven a number of cars from single seaters to fwd saloons to front engined rwd cars. My (non expert) take on this is that the mid engined layout is probably ultimately the quickest configuration for the good driver. Agile and well balanced. However, for many of us, and certainly me, the front engined and transaxle layout of the 924/44/68 is better because I'm just not good enough to exploit the mid engined layout.

The Porsche transaxle cars are extremely well balanced and give the driver confidence, they get the power down, brake well but are just not as nervous as the mid engined car on or near the limit. For me that's a good thing but a good driver will be able to exploit that nervousness for quicker turn in etc and will end up quicker.

For me, I'm quicker and happier in a car I trust. And my 924S race car, whilst a long way from being a rocket ship, is the best handling car I have ever raced.

Now the Rear engined layout of the GT3 is a different beast from the earlier 911s but it's layout still has a different set of traits. It will get its power down well but may still be nervous on the limit and trickier to drive than either of the mid engined or transaxle cars. Again, a good driver will be able to exploit that to extract the lap times but I couldn't!

The 944t and 968 have not been developed for many years whilst the GT3 has. A more modern interpretation of the ltransaxle layout is the Aston Martin Vantage and that has done very well in series like British GT for eg.

Edited by andy97 on Tuesday 26th April 12:52