Would a 2.4s be a good place to put money?
Discussion
g7jhp said:
mollytherocker said:
One of the top specialists (cant remember which) has said that many old 911 including the 993 are being put away like fine wines by collectors.
Its one of the reasons that there are so few good cars for sale.
You'd expect to hear that from a car salesman! Its one of the reasons that there are so few good cars for sale.
To be fair, I think he was frustrated by it. If people lock up their cars, how can he sell them!
g7jhp said:
On the flip side the increase in prices means cars are now worth restoring where they once weren't economically viable.
I believe indies are doing less custom and 'backdates' and more standard restorations.
Indeed, and it is starting to cause a shortage of parts. Not only is everyone chasing good secondhand parts but no cars are being scrapped! A double whammy!I believe indies are doing less custom and 'backdates' and more standard restorations.
The 964 and 993 are especaiily affected and this is bound to worsen.
Lovely car the 2.4S, but for me it certainly isn't worth today's market price. Not by a long long way. As far as investment goes, Warren Buffet's principle of assessing the value of the underlying asset is sound. In this case the car is simply not good enough to justify paying well north of £100K. By the same principle I thought they were a fair bit undervalued at around £20K, so I bought one at that point and enjoyed it immensely! The market has now gone silly mad for these cars, which is a bit of a shame really. What was once a fun and relatively affordable sports car is now just another rich man's trendy toy.
My advice - buy a nice 3.0 SC or C3.2 for relatively sensible money and spend the other £100K+ on something else.
My advice - buy a nice 3.0 SC or C3.2 for relatively sensible money and spend the other £100K+ on something else.
estacion said:
Would a 2.4s be a good place to put money?
Right now I’d say no. Market is overheated and will come down, 911T and 911E offer 80% of the experience for a much lower price, it’s just a beetle with 6 pots, etc.Then, when get to drive our '71 2.2S now and then, I start the engine, roll out of the garage, heat up the oil for a few miles and proceed to flog the car on an empty local road on a sunny morning... those are the times when I think these things are still hopelessly undervalued and will triple in value again within the next few years. Again, again and again.
EricE said:
Right now I’d say no. Market is overheated and will come down, 911T and 911E offer 80% of the experience for a much lower price, it’s just a beetle with 6 pots, etc.
Then, when get to drive our '71 2.2S now and then, I start the engine, roll out of the garage, heat up the oil for a few miles and proceed to flog the car on an empty local road on a sunny morning... those are the times when I think these things are still hopelessly undervalued and will triple in value again within the next few years. Again, again and again.
The T offers everything but the power of the other 2. But it is a stgn of the times that I look at 912s as a way back into these...when I think that I bought my 2.4E for £2k and sold it back in '91 for £9k, fully restored....Then, when get to drive our '71 2.2S now and then, I start the engine, roll out of the garage, heat up the oil for a few miles and proceed to flog the car on an empty local road on a sunny morning... those are the times when I think these things are still hopelessly undervalued and will triple in value again within the next few years. Again, again and again.
So I think all agree, in the same vain as when all the city analysis give you buy options it's already too late, and for porshe probably generally the price rise is over for a while now, but the market is funny and does have some dynamics that do not make for perfect economics.
Rare porsche excluded as these generally do hold there value and are bought as investments (a 2.4s may just about fall into this but I'm not sure) porsche values are very much driven by dealers in a way that is reasonably specific to Porsches. So air cooled cars have gone up partly due to all that we know but also partly as there have not been many on the market and dealers have driven up prices, you look though in the last couple of months now it seems everybody that had an old porsche that they used occasionally I thinking of selling as prices have gone up, so this the market is definitely stabilising or possibly falling slightly. Look at some of the dealers with cars that have now been sitting around for a few months, at the begining of the year they were flying out of the showroom.
Porsches and especially 911's have always been the enthusiasts car not the collectors ( no horse on the badge) it's kind of frustrating that people drive up prices just to let them gather dust but as always happening a few get burnt and turn to other things, car are no investment simple as that, a few people win, but lots lose, the risk is high and the return all costs considered is never that great, plain and simple only muppets invest in cars, if there was an index for car investment the return would have to be massive as the rise is massive!!
Rare porsche excluded as these generally do hold there value and are bought as investments (a 2.4s may just about fall into this but I'm not sure) porsche values are very much driven by dealers in a way that is reasonably specific to Porsches. So air cooled cars have gone up partly due to all that we know but also partly as there have not been many on the market and dealers have driven up prices, you look though in the last couple of months now it seems everybody that had an old porsche that they used occasionally I thinking of selling as prices have gone up, so this the market is definitely stabilising or possibly falling slightly. Look at some of the dealers with cars that have now been sitting around for a few months, at the begining of the year they were flying out of the showroom.
Porsches and especially 911's have always been the enthusiasts car not the collectors ( no horse on the badge) it's kind of frustrating that people drive up prices just to let them gather dust but as always happening a few get burnt and turn to other things, car are no investment simple as that, a few people win, but lots lose, the risk is high and the return all costs considered is never that great, plain and simple only muppets invest in cars, if there was an index for car investment the return would have to be massive as the rise is massive!!
I don't think that anybody has asked the obvious question ... for how long ?
For how long is this investment to entertain ?
I agree that the reason to buy an old car is for the enjoyment of the ownership experience.
Porsche have proven themselves be reliable, with accessible parts and expertise enough to keep the thing going well --- and a rapidly widening customer base of enthusiastic owners.
Buy a new car and you will lose money. Buy an old car and drive it 5000 miles a year on high days and holidays, and you may not. I have yet to see a face that my old cars do not bring a smile to.
As for the investment term --- short and you may be lucky. Medium and you may be lucky --- but you could always use a fall in rice as an excuse to trade up to something more expensive. Long --- I don't think you can go wrong.
They were beautiful cars when they were new. They are beautiful cars now. And they don't engender green-eye ...
For how long is this investment to entertain ?
I agree that the reason to buy an old car is for the enjoyment of the ownership experience.
Porsche have proven themselves be reliable, with accessible parts and expertise enough to keep the thing going well --- and a rapidly widening customer base of enthusiastic owners.
Buy a new car and you will lose money. Buy an old car and drive it 5000 miles a year on high days and holidays, and you may not. I have yet to see a face that my old cars do not bring a smile to.
As for the investment term --- short and you may be lucky. Medium and you may be lucky --- but you could always use a fall in rice as an excuse to trade up to something more expensive. Long --- I don't think you can go wrong.
They were beautiful cars when they were new. They are beautiful cars now. And they don't engender green-eye ...
There have been some headline prices for 2.7RSs in the US and this has lead to some speculative pricing for other stuff such as 2.4Ss.
IMO anything north of £100k is too much for a 2.4S unless it is quite exceptional and ticks all the crucial boxes. The correction will come when cars are not selling and prices start to be reduced - some evidence already. No wonder they quote POA.
I can see a more sustainable market for the better late air cooled 911s - the desirable variants of the best 3.2s, 964s, 993s, in the £30-50k range. Not so rare, but still with the traditional 911 virtues. And, easier to use and live with, and less financial risk.
IMO anything north of £100k is too much for a 2.4S unless it is quite exceptional and ticks all the crucial boxes. The correction will come when cars are not selling and prices start to be reduced - some evidence already. No wonder they quote POA.
I can see a more sustainable market for the better late air cooled 911s - the desirable variants of the best 3.2s, 964s, 993s, in the £30-50k range. Not so rare, but still with the traditional 911 virtues. And, easier to use and live with, and less financial risk.
Tricky one to call. I sold my pristine 2.2s last year and could have added another £30k to the price today. Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing? Still, it went to an enthusiast who knows how to look after it and drives it.
Edited to add: If I was fortunate enough to be long on equities and classic cars I would be cashing in. Market looking toppish for the latter at least and I don't like what is happening in the Middle East - and looks set to get much worse. But perhaps I should stick to medicine given my 2.2s sale!
Edited to add: If I was fortunate enough to be long on equities and classic cars I would be cashing in. Market looking toppish for the latter at least and I don't like what is happening in the Middle East - and looks set to get much worse. But perhaps I should stick to medicine given my 2.2s sale!
Edited by drmark on Tuesday 1st July 09:17
drmark said:
..
Edited to add: If I was fortunate enough to be long on equities and classic cars I would be cashing in. Market looking toppish for the latter at least and I don't like what is happening in the Middle East - and looks set to get much worse.
Markets seem immune to local shocks, an interest rate hike will remove froth on both. But central bankers have signalled low rates for at least a couple of more years.Edited to add: If I was fortunate enough to be long on equities and classic cars I would be cashing in. Market looking toppish for the latter at least and I don't like what is happening in the Middle East - and looks set to get much worse.
rubystone said:
EricE said:
Right now I’d say no. Market is overheated and will come down, 911T and 911E offer 80% of the experience for a much lower price, it’s just a beetle with 6 pots, etc.
Then, when get to drive our '71 2.2S now and then, I start the engine, roll out of the garage, heat up the oil for a few miles and proceed to flog the car on an empty local road on a sunny morning... those are the times when I think these things are still hopelessly undervalued and will triple in value again within the next few years. Again, again and again.
The T offers everything but the power of the other 2. But it is a stgn of the times that I look at 912s as a way back into these...when I think that I bought my 2.4E for £2k and sold it back in '91 for £9k, fully restored....Then, when get to drive our '71 2.2S now and then, I start the engine, roll out of the garage, heat up the oil for a few miles and proceed to flog the car on an empty local road on a sunny morning... those are the times when I think these things are still hopelessly undervalued and will triple in value again within the next few years. Again, again and again.
Low internet rates for a couple more years...... Never in recent history have interest rates been so low for so long, nobody thinks it's going to changes but then I guess a few years ago people thought the cycle of boom and bust was a thing of the past !!
Just when you get happy and comfortable with things they change, that's the capitalist system, the only thing for certain that all economists agree on is that things never stay the same........
Just when you get happy and comfortable with things they change, that's the capitalist system, the only thing for certain that all economists agree on is that things never stay the same........
rubystone said:
The T offers everything but the power of the other 2. But it is a stgn of the times that I look at 912s as a way back into these...when I think that I bought my 2.4E for £2k and sold it back in '91 for £9k, fully restored....
Yes but I find that the power delivery and sound of the S models adds to the early 911 experience. On the road the E is much quicker due to the torque, but the way an early oversquare MFI S engine wakes up at higher RPM sends tingles down my spine every time... that fun begins right about where you would want to shift with a T or E. It just makes the driving experience that bit more visceral and dramatic.
In terms of value the T and E are much more sensible buys these days and the 912 also has a few things going for it right now. My main concern with the 912 is that the bodywork restoration costs are no different from a 911S which makes it almost impossible to get the money back on sale if you find rust. And they all rust.
EricE said:
Yes but I find that the power delivery and sound of the S models adds to the early 911 experience.
On the road the E is much quicker due to the torque, but the way an early oversquare MFI S engine wakes up at higher RPM sends tingles down my spine every time... that fun begins right about where you would want to shift with a T or E. It just makes the driving experience that bit more visceral and dramatic.
In terms of value the T and E are much more sensible buys these days and the 912 also has a few things going for it right now. My main concern with the 912 is that the bodywork restoration costs are no different from a 911S which makes it almost impossible to get the money back on sale if you find rust. And they all rust.
Agree on the S spec engine excitement, it's a real screamer, but much cheaper to buy a T and then drop an S spec engine into it (or even a 2.7 engine for that matter). On the road the E is much quicker due to the torque, but the way an early oversquare MFI S engine wakes up at higher RPM sends tingles down my spine every time... that fun begins right about where you would want to shift with a T or E. It just makes the driving experience that bit more visceral and dramatic.
In terms of value the T and E are much more sensible buys these days and the 912 also has a few things going for it right now. My main concern with the 912 is that the bodywork restoration costs are no different from a 911S which makes it almost impossible to get the money back on sale if you find rust. And they all rust.
roygarth said:
My T is matching numbers with COC etc but had engine rebuilt with E cams etc for 180bhp+. So 95% of the experience for 50% of the £££!
smart man (that's precisely what I'd do - now you've gone and spoiled my plan!) E cams are perfect for driveability...I could've gone for S cams but decided against it when I had Martin Harvey rebuild it.Gassing Station | Porsche Classics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff