More hype and plain silliness
Discussion
Lots of time/effort expended on the linked car by OP
Doesn't make 80k right but it's been done properly
http://www.ddk-online.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2...
Doesn't make 80k right but it's been done properly
http://www.ddk-online.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2...
Err Indoors said:
Just ridiculous going to be some serious shirt losing, anybody who would buy a 3.2 for 80k is just plain stupid, and there's nothing more dangerous than a fool with money.
Good luck to them i'll put my mortgage on a serious implosion very soon.
You said that when they were changing hands for £30k Good luck to them i'll put my mortgage on a serious implosion very soon.
I'd pay £50k for this day night long. http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p... In fact if there were 10 in this condition I'd buy them all and tuck them away.
Edited by IMI A on Saturday 11th October 01:10
Edited by IMI A on Saturday 11th October 10:00
cornershop said:
Lots of time/effort expended on the linked car by OP
Doesn't make 80k right but it's been done properly
http://www.ddk-online.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2...
Can't deny that this is not a thorough job. Hats off to the man for doing it right. But who dictates that a rot box that's been welded up is worth way in excess of an original car that's never been "done"? Or is an original machine worth £100k?!!! Doesn't make 80k right but it's been done properly
http://www.ddk-online.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2...
OK you may say "find me an original car". Well patience is a virtue and all good things to those who wait.
The dealer mantra of "fully restored" is a load of old cobblers for your mr average wet behind the ears new enthusiast.
Try that old spiel with say a Rolex double red and you'd be laughed out the game! Oh yes it has a replica face, hands and bezel insert as the originals were too far gone.
So tell me mr watch dealer, how much is an original double red with box/papers? Err about £30K. How much is this "restored" double red better than new? This one's £70k.
Why's that? Well it's been restored hasn't it!
This car is not investment grade at all. It's like all the other knackered cars that needed doing up. Yes the job is exemplary but aside from that it holds no attraction for someone who places originality above all else.
That is what you pay way in excess of for. Always have. Always will...
Edited by P50 on Saturday 11th October 08:24
Edited by P50 on Saturday 11th October 09:03
I guess 'unrestored' could be interpreted by some as 'with potential for money to be spent in the future'. As long as all the work is documented/evidenced and has been done by reputable outfits, I see the attraction of restored cars but not at 80k
I doubt my 3.2 was anyone near the condition of OP's car when i bought it for 12k in 2006, but since then i've spent:
£12k bodywork
£11k engine rebuild
£2000 suspension/brakes
£2500 interior incl seats
Excluding maintenance but including the initial outlay, its probably worth now what i've spent on it (and what its insured for)
I doubt my 3.2 was anyone near the condition of OP's car when i bought it for 12k in 2006, but since then i've spent:
£12k bodywork
£11k engine rebuild
£2000 suspension/brakes
£2500 interior incl seats
Excluding maintenance but including the initial outlay, its probably worth now what i've spent on it (and what its insured for)
cornershop said:
I guess 'unrestored' could be interpreted by some as 'with potential for money to be spent in the future'. As long as all the work is documented/evidenced and has been done by reputable outfits, I see the attraction of restored cars but not at 80k
I doubt my 3.2 was anyone near the condition of OP's car when i bought it for 12k in 2006, but since then i've spent:
£12k bodywork
£11k engine rebuild
£2000 suspension/brakes
£2500 interior incl seats
Excluding maintenance but including the initial outlay, its probably worth now what i've spent on it (and what its insured for)
So you've spent 27 odd grand on a 3.2 to get it sorted. Perfectly normal behaviour over a period of years especially if it's used as nature intended.I doubt my 3.2 was anyone near the condition of OP's car when i bought it for 12k in 2006, but since then i've spent:
£12k bodywork
£11k engine rebuild
£2000 suspension/brakes
£2500 interior incl seats
Excluding maintenance but including the initial outlay, its probably worth now what i've spent on it (and what its insured for)
What would a 3.2 be worth needing the above as a project? 12-15k? So we're in the 50k area and we all know one rarely gets back ones outlay but such is life.
So you see yours at high 20's. That's not 79 grand though!
It all went pop in the early nineties and with the silly asking prices of late there gonna be much egg on face when music stop.
IMI A said:
You said that when they were changing hands for £30k
I'd pay £50k for this day night long. http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p... In fact if there were 10 in this condition I'd buy them all and tuck them away.
How would you value this one then ?I'd pay £50k for this day night long. http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p... In fact if there were 10 in this condition I'd buy them all and tuck them away.
Edited by IMI A on Saturday 11th October 01:10
Edited by IMI A on Saturday 11th October 10:00
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
mph said:
IMI A said:
You said that when they were changing hands for £30k
I'd pay £50k for this day night long. http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p... In fact if there were 10 in this condition I'd buy them all and tuck them away.
How would you value this one then ?I'd pay £50k for this day night long. http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p... In fact if there were 10 in this condition I'd buy them all and tuck them away.
Edited by IMI A on Saturday 11th October 01:10
Edited by IMI A on Saturday 11th October 10:00
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
IMI A said:
You said that when they were changing hands for £30k
I'd pay £50k for this day night long. http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p... In fact if there were 10 in this condition I'd buy them all and tuck them away.
The nice original 41k mile 1988 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe (pictured below) sold for circa £50k recently at Avantgarde - full details here. It was Silver with black interior, G50 original and low miles.I'd pay £50k for this day night long. http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p... In fact if there were 10 in this condition I'd buy them all and tuck them away.
That IMO is about right for a mint, low mileage, great colour, original car.
A number of Porsche Specialists who have been inflating prices of 3.2's all year and we're now seeing some of the OPC's trying it as well.
I've been following Jon Millers restoration here of his 3.2 Carrera as I was potentially interested.
Jon was open that there were some signs of rust in the lower B-post although he had inspected these and was expecting it to be very localised. When he investigated further it turned out there was a lot more corrosion than initially thought to be rectified which took time.
I've no doubt that the quality of work done is to a high standard, but as others have said taking a car and restoring it doesn't justify this price.
In January I asked for a approximate price he advised "Given the level of work being undertaken and the increased value of these cars the price is likely to be close to £40k but when the time comes I will speak to a few specialist to gauge value."
Paul Stephens obviously advised that they could sell it for an eye watering £79,995.
No change from estate agents telling you they can sell your house for more than you who it's worth, most people will always think "no harm in trying" even if they know it's not worth it.
A cars value is always based on being in mint condition, low mileage, right colour and original (whether we like it or not).
At the end of this restoration you have a lovely restored 3.2 Carrera with a fresh engine rebuild. However it's still a 102,000+ mile car (not the 73 miles shown on the speedo). Paul Stephens advert pitches it as an alternative to a 991, yet using it as a daily will leave it open to the usual rust issues IB's face. As an investment car it doesn't have the low mileage or original paint.
The other way is looking what else can be had up to £80k - 996 GT3, 997 GT3, Ferrari 355 are all available and offer arguably better driving experience and long term investment potential and have change to spare!
No doubt it will either be snapped up by someone with more money than sense or more than likely be sold for a far lower amount closer market value.
Looking forward to seeing a correction in prices within the next 3 years.
g7jhp said:
A cars value is always based on being in mint condition, low mileage, right colour and original (whether we like it or not).
At the end of this restoration you have a lovely restored 3.2 Carrera with a fresh engine rebuild. However it's still a 102,000+ mile car (not the 73 miles shown on the speedo). Paul Stephens advert pitches it as an alternative to a 991, yet using it as a daily will leave it open to the usual rust issues IB's face. As an investment car it doesn't have the low mileage or original paint.
There comes a point where virtually every car has to be restored. At the end of this restoration you have a lovely restored 3.2 Carrera with a fresh engine rebuild. However it's still a 102,000+ mile car (not the 73 miles shown on the speedo). Paul Stephens advert pitches it as an alternative to a 991, yet using it as a daily will leave it open to the usual rust issues IB's face. As an investment car it doesn't have the low mileage or original paint.
Most of the early Porsches are now reaching that point and a well restored car will eventually command a high price.
Why should a car that's been restored down to the last nut and bolt be judged on it's mileage before restoration ? It's clearly superior in every way to it's pre-restoration condition. In many cases it will also be superior to it's condition when new.
The mileage of a car becomes irrelevant once it's been rebuilt, in fact it's seldom mentioned in other cars, why should Porsche be any different ?
Your point may be valid on relatively modern "classic" while there are a enough low-owner low-mileage cars available. When that scenario passes, then a properly restored car is preferable to a 200k mile original that's riddled with rust and tired mechanically IMHO.
IMI A said:
Hmmm more difficult. Do not like the interior and its not a G50. I wouldn't pay more than £35k but it may be worth much more to someone else. Where do you see it?
Given that the Dick Lovett car with more miles/owners is £75k and the Avantgarde car with more owners and slightly less miles allegedly sold for £50k. I would say it should be at least £40k. I believe they're asking more than that.Paragon have a nice example here. http://www.paragongb.com/cars/porsche-911-carrera-...
Again it's more miles and owners at £35k.
mph said:
There comes a point where virtually every car has to be restored.
Most of the early Porsches are now reaching that point and a well restored car will eventually command a high price.
Why should a car that's been restored down to the last nut and bolt be judged on it's mileage before restoration ? It's clearly superior in every way to it's pre-restoration condition. In many cases it will also be superior to it's condition when new.
The mileage of a car becomes irrelevant once it's been rebuilt, in fact it's seldom mentioned in other cars, why should Porsche be any different ?
Your point may be valid on relatively modern "classic" while there are a enough low-owner low-mileage cars available. When that scenario passes, then a properly restored car is preferable to a 200k mile original that's riddled with rust and tired mechanically IMHO.
I understand where you're coming from but mileage does still count as it's wear and tear on the car rather than just the engine. You have to look at all the elements when looking at value.Most of the early Porsches are now reaching that point and a well restored car will eventually command a high price.
Why should a car that's been restored down to the last nut and bolt be judged on it's mileage before restoration ? It's clearly superior in every way to it's pre-restoration condition. In many cases it will also be superior to it's condition when new.
The mileage of a car becomes irrelevant once it's been rebuilt, in fact it's seldom mentioned in other cars, why should Porsche be any different ?
Your point may be valid on relatively modern "classic" while there are a enough low-owner low-mileage cars available. When that scenario passes, then a properly restored car is preferable to a 200k mile original that's riddled with rust and tired mechanically IMHO.
In this case the Paul Stephens car on 102k miles but rebuilt engine is asking £80k, but a mint original with better colour silver/black car with original 41k mile engine went for circa £50k. Which would you have chosen?
Rather than re-trim the seats I'd have sourced another pair of front seats in the right colour as this would have ensured they were factory spec. I'm sure there are a few sets of blue sport seats gathering dust which have been swapped for buckets.
Mileage, originality still plays a massive part in determining which cars command the premium prices in rare classic car circles (whether we think that is right or not).
Personally I'd have bought the original 41k mile car as an investment, but I see the appeal of the Jon Miller's car if I wanted to drive it (but not at the price).
But low mileage is also a problem.
I have re-commissioned two "unused" cars this year --- and both have been a problem.
Not in cost terms, the supposedly expensive SCoM have more than delivered in every respect, but it is inconvenient and that heart-in-the mouth "will she get me home" is definitely a factor.
Give me a car that has done a regular 2000 miles per annum anytime --- with a good service history, fab fab.
In compensation for the inconvenience, SCoM have ensured that I have ended up with two cars that are better than I ever dared hope, and with no financial risk whatsoever. Accepted i've agreed to sell them though SCoM, but why wouldn't I ?
They sell cars for me so that I get more, than I can sell cars for me !
I know, I've tried.
I have re-commissioned two "unused" cars this year --- and both have been a problem.
Not in cost terms, the supposedly expensive SCoM have more than delivered in every respect, but it is inconvenient and that heart-in-the mouth "will she get me home" is definitely a factor.
Give me a car that has done a regular 2000 miles per annum anytime --- with a good service history, fab fab.
In compensation for the inconvenience, SCoM have ensured that I have ended up with two cars that are better than I ever dared hope, and with no financial risk whatsoever. Accepted i've agreed to sell them though SCoM, but why wouldn't I ?
They sell cars for me so that I get more, than I can sell cars for me !
I know, I've tried.
Talking of low mileage, this car looks great, rare as well. These impact bumper cars are really coming of age, and rightly so.
http://www.artcurial.com/en/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?...
http://www.artcurial.com/en/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?...
Why is low mileage a problem ? Re-commission the car correctly, do a few proving miles and you're in business.
No matter how well maintained a high-mileage car is, there are literally hundreds of items that aren't covered by maintenance that will contribute to making the car lose it sharpness.
Engines, gearboxes and all the myriad mechanical parts may well be serviceable but they won't be as sharp as they were.
There's nothing wrong with a well-maintained high mileage car but it's not preferable to a properly re-commissioned low-mileage example in my opinion.
No matter how well maintained a high-mileage car is, there are literally hundreds of items that aren't covered by maintenance that will contribute to making the car lose it sharpness.
Engines, gearboxes and all the myriad mechanical parts may well be serviceable but they won't be as sharp as they were.
There's nothing wrong with a well-maintained high mileage car but it's not preferable to a properly re-commissioned low-mileage example in my opinion.
Edited by mph on Sunday 12th October 11:08
thegoose said:
david hockney said:
OK- so £79995 is a large sum of money for a 3.2 Carrera....but as a testimonial to how good Paul Stephens think it is they are giving a 12 month warranty.
I'd give a 12 month warranty on anything if I've got a big enough margin across it 
IMI A said:
Err Indoors said:
Just ridiculous going to be some serious shirt losing, anybody who would buy a 3.2 for 80k is just plain stupid, and there's nothing more dangerous than a fool with money.
Good luck to them i'll put my mortgage on a serious implosion very soon.
You said that when they were changing hands for £30k Good luck to them i'll put my mortgage on a serious implosion very soon.
I'd pay £50k for this day night long. http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p... In fact if there were 10 in this condition I'd buy them all and tuck them away.
Edited by IMI A on Saturday 11th October 10:00
Compared to my 993, they have in common that they both have full OPC history, Certificate of Authenticity and low ownership. What they don't share is mileage, mines over double of this 3.2. I can see the condition will be better on the 3.2, but it can't be 2 or 3x better.
Is a 3.2 really worth two or three times the price of a 993? I've owned both, and IMO not a chance. I really do think this is madness, well either that or the 993 is seriously under priced.
Edited by Wozy68 on Monday 13th October 10:50
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