Discussion
Steve Rance said:
Finally, the shoulder of the cup 2 tyre is very square and with the low set up of the car can lead to them not fitting unless the correct wheel offsets are chosen since they sit well under the wheel arches. I was very lucky - There is a 2mm gap between my rear arches and the tyres that sit under them. Very close! I will post up the offsets after Ive checked them. You can use these as the max offset possible to use. Another option would be to use 255 section rear tyres. I could not find a 255/18 in the Cup 2 but they may be available.
Yeah I noticed this too albeit I'm running 295/30 on an 11J rim at the rear. Much less breathing room when switching from R888 to Cups 2's although the Cups look much better from an aesthetics point of view 
Aside from ride height are you running RS geo ? Your spec is very similar to mine although I have a few extra bits and pieces and wider rubber as it's a widebody - if we're ever at the same track day I would be interested to get your thoughts on how mine drives in comparison.Steve Rance said:
All in all, I am absolutely delighted with this little car. I wanted to create something that would be comfortable to drive on the road, be an interactive event at low as well as high speeds and quick enough to be fun on the circuit. Some of the the modifications were a bit of a gamble but in the event are soft enough to be comfortable on the road yet offer serious potetial for track performance.
Sounds like you've discovered the 964s party piece. We had almost as much fun on the winding roads at legal speeds that surround the Spa Francorchamps circuit on our day off, as we did when driving the track. As you say, it's the modern bolt on suspension, tyre advances and the zing of the single mass flywheel that turns it into a fun and agile little piglet that snuffles its way through the twists and turns. While it's not master of the track or road it makes a fine jack of all trades in my opinion. What I find fascinating reading about this project are the parallels with another car of the same era, the Lancia Delta integrale. Apart from the obvious flex in the shell (which can be negated to some degree), the chassis was inherently so brilliant that adding the latest suspension tech, modern rubber, slotted brake discs and a mild chip upgrade reveals a car with modern levels of performance but much more feel and feedback.
In fact I seem to recall an old CAR head-to-head feature on the 964 vs the integrale, or is that my imagination?
In fact I seem to recall an old CAR head-to-head feature on the 964 vs the integrale, or is that my imagination?
Steve Rance said:
A quick update.
Have now driven the car on the road on both bumpy suffolk lanes and smoother tarmac. No scuttle shake at all, it feels good and the chassis has no problems at all dealing with the much stiffer spring and damping combo - although i'm expecting flex some flex when it's loaded up on circuit. I was worried that the spring rates would result in an uncomfortable ride but absolutely no probelm at all. The damping is well judged with decent control. Damping has come a long way over the past 10 years. The very low ride height is fine to live with no major issues with front axle bump steer that I was fearing. I think the gamble of running KW Clubsports with the Higher spiring rates has paid off.
The brakes are very strong. On road biased tyres - currently running crappy old carlos fandango rubber - i'd say it's over braked. Very easy to snatch the fronts unless the nose is loaded first. The level of dry grip in the chassis is so great - even on low grip rubber - that there is no need at all to trail on the road. With a set of cups fitted, the car should come to life and allow much later braking points and then the brakes will come into thier own. On saying that, I tend to mince about on the road and leave driving quickly exculsively to the circuit.
All in all, I am absolutely delighted with this little car. I wanted to create something that would be comfortable to drive on the road, be an interactive event at low as well as high speeds and quick enough to be fun on the circuit. Some of the the modifications were a bit of a gamble but in the event are soft enough to be comfortable on the road yet offer serious potetial for track performance.
The only downside so far have been the fuchs - which when fitted with 265 cup 2's refused to fit under the rear arches. The car is just too low. Paul told me to fit 255's and he was right. Luckily they will it on the speedline reps that the car came with. I am really looking forward to driving the car on the cups. If it can be this good on crappy rubber, it will be lovely on cups. I am sure that the set up will need fettling a little to optimise track performance but alreadly I can tell that this will be a very fast little car.
ras62 said:
That is a nice summary Steve and it sounds like you are 90% there with what you set out to achieve. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on spending some time in a 964 with a setup slightly less extreme, especially the ride height and on more road friendly dampers/springs.
I'd love to drive a car with a mild set up. The car I drove at Siverstone was reasonably mildly damped with stock bars but it had a pretty extreme diff and brake set up.Edited by Steve Rance on Monday 3rd August 20:19
SignalGruen said:
Yeah I noticed this too albeit I'm running 295/30 on an 11J rim at the rear. Much less breathing room when switching from R888 to Cups 2's although the Cups look much better from an aesthetics point of view Aside from ride height are you running RS geo ? Your spec is very similar to mine although I have a few extra bits and pieces and wider rubber as it's a widebody - if we're ever at the same track day I would be interested to get your thoughts on how mine drives in comparison.
Basically we took the RS geo and added to it. Ie more camber and caster and less ride height. I would love to drive your car. It sounds an intreging vehicle Aside from ride height are you running RS geo ? Your spec is very similar to mine although I have a few extra bits and pieces and wider rubber as it's a widebody - if we're ever at the same track day I would be interested to get your thoughts on how mine drives in comparison.anonymous said:
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I cant really answer that one for you. It may be worth setting a low budget and seeing what you get at the end of it. 964 and 993 C2's in coupe and manual are difficult to find and not cheap these days so I'd definately consider working some magic into the cayman. If it were me, I'd change the spring/damper combo, add some adjustable top mounts and lower control arms, increase the roll resistance and fit a single mass flywheel. Get a sharper geo and drop the ride height. go as sharp or as blunt as you like on set up. An airbag free steering wheel will give you a lot more steering feel and along with the sharper damping and geo, the car will definately feel more alive. I'd leave the engine alone, although i'd consider a Slippy diff - they arn't that expensive. If you fit Cup 2's and you want to track regularly, a baffled sump would be worth considering. If you still have a hankering for an air cooled, You are welcome to drive my 964 to see where a standard C2 can be taken with a few bolt on bits. You may find it interesting to compare it's character to the lovely original C2 that you drove recently. The spectrum that these cars can be created to cover is very broard. I think that is the main joy of the aircooled cars, you can change the character of them very easily by bolting on bits from the tried and tested Porsche motor sport parts bin and turn just about anything into a track weapon. That is the unique nature of early 911s. They've all been raced extensively and parts and tuning routes are so readily available that It's realively easy to turn them into something that gives most of the feel and experience of a an RS or even a full on historic racer.
The cayman has a lovely chasis and a lot of car for its current money. All the basics are already there. My only advice is to be very clear on exactly what you want from the car and stick to that - or it's a very slippery slide. The first thing to do would be to make sure that as much of the chasis is adjustable as possible. Then set the spring rates and make sure that they marry to the damping rate. That will give you the all of the freedom that you need to set the geo that suits you and control the wheel movement the way you want it. It is amaing how much a geo makes to the feel of a car and the feed back that it gives you. The valving of many modern dampers will give you almost the best of both worlds with high speed and low speed control.
Hi Neil
Apologies. Just spotted your post. Your data project sounds very interesting. I will give you some feedback as soon as I can. The softer helper springs are always tempting. I'm a big fan of using them - especially on road/track cars. With the 964 I am mindful of the /bump steer issue across the font axle so don't want to encourage any more movement than necessary. To be honest, the Clubsport kit is very well judged and does not feel stiff at all. On the current valving set up, id say it needs a tad more fast bump for track work but the proof of the pudding and all that. Off the top of my head, the spring rates are 300-350 front and 700 rear which is cup territory. Feels absolutely spot on. I'd have been dissapointed going B10 as that is substantially softer and would definitely bring the bump steer factor more into play.
Apologies. Just spotted your post. Your data project sounds very interesting. I will give you some feedback as soon as I can. The softer helper springs are always tempting. I'm a big fan of using them - especially on road/track cars. With the 964 I am mindful of the /bump steer issue across the font axle so don't want to encourage any more movement than necessary. To be honest, the Clubsport kit is very well judged and does not feel stiff at all. On the current valving set up, id say it needs a tad more fast bump for track work but the proof of the pudding and all that. Off the top of my head, the spring rates are 300-350 front and 700 rear which is cup territory. Feels absolutely spot on. I'd have been dissapointed going B10 as that is substantially softer and would definitely bring the bump steer factor more into play.
Steve Rance said:
An airbag free steering wheel will give you a lot more steering feel
Gentlemen would anyone care to elaborate why this is? Also what are thoughts on driving a car where you have actually removed a safety device like the airbag, my concern is where im running normal 3 point belts my very pretty face becomes the airbag in the event of a prang? anonymous said:
[redacted]
You mean thinner rim, right? Thinner harder rim means you get more info from the contact patch. The modern trend for fat squashy rims means we can't feel anything any more. BMW M cars are the worst offenders.Just to be contrarian for a moment, the modern trend towards small diameter steering wheels means each unit of input at the steering wheel gives a larger input at the contact patch. Personally I want greater adjustability and maximum smoothness. In other words, a larger diameter steering wheel means each unit of input gives me a more precise (smaller) output at the contact patch.
There seems to be a fashionable trend towards tiny steering wheels which doesn't make logical sense to me: not only do we have new cars with dartier turn in characteristics but we amplify this characteristic by ramping up the input.
<Topol> On the other hand, it probably makes sense on older cars with slower racks...
Dodgey_Rog said:
I'm in the process of changing mine from airbag to non airbag, went for the Momo Mod 07.
Love that wheel, fitted one in my race car which whilst only sharing a badge (in theory) with its contemporary 964 shares the Porsche trait that to get the wheel in the right place requires either a spacer or in my case fitting the 07. Tall guys I guess will need the spacer as well.The Momo wheel is over 40% lighter than the standard 964 wheel and has a similar effect on the steering as a light weight flywheel has on throttle reponse. There is far less inertia to overcome so it is a lot more sensitive -but it also gives more kickback (sepecially on cup 2's). some drivers like that, some don't. I prefer to have as much as feedback possible and just filter out the kickback. Secondly, it is 10cm closer to the driver which is important to me as I prefer to sit close to the steering wheel. Most racing drivers do. Again, some drivers like to sit further back from the wheel - relative to the pedals - so may prefer the normal wheel location. Thirdly, the Momo has a smaller diameter than the original wheel which again I prefer as I find the rack a little slow - often a driver needs to take more lock after crossing his arms - and this helps speed it a little so that in most situations, crossed arms is adiquate. To a large extent, it also negates the effect of the powered steering - which is quite subtle on the 964 - and almost gives the feel of an unassisted rack. Which again I prefer.
The airbag issue is a bit of a red herring as 964's - at least the cars that i've driven - dont have them.
The airbag issue is a bit of a red herring as 964's - at least the cars that i've driven - dont have them.
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