964 - Project

[Slippydiff]

ras62 said:

IMIA said:

No apparently the 93 cars had an engine closer to the 993. Def not pre 93 and you have to be careful as some 90.91,92 cars that were sat at dealer forecourts were registered in 93 and aren't real 93 cars. 964 was a very expensive cars compared to its pier group at the time and wasn't a good seller.

No late 964 was fitted with the 993 crankshaft, rods or pistons or the self adjusting/lighter valve system. All 964 engines are essentially the same including the RS. Various trim parts on the early 993 cars can also be found on late build 964's but that's as far as it goes.

The 993's increase in horsepower (250 v's 272) was allegedly down to an improvement in the efficiency of 993's exhaust system. Apart from the previously mentioned hydraulic lifters there was little difference between the two engines mechanically.

Regarding cars sitting around unsold at dealers, in the case of C2's it's fairly easy to differentiate between early and and late model years by looking at the rear brake calipers, early cars had 2 pots, later (and all C4's ?) had 4 pots.

[ras62]

IMIA said:

Interesting fellow at JZM told me the 93 car had a substantially updated engine which does not leak. Pleased if you're correct!

Not a salesman about to give you a cheeky low bid on your unpopular leaky 90 model by chance?;) Lovely car btw!

[Scooty100]

Steve Rance said:

I was considering cup mirrors. Do the give a decent vision range? I was worried that they would be a little restricted.

Nope have had them on for two weeks now and all good.

Look so much nicer too

[IMIA]

ras62 said:

IMIA said:

Interesting fellow at JZM told me the 93 car had a substantially updated engine which does not leak. Pleased if you're correct!

Not a salesman about to give you a cheeky low bid on your unpopular leaky 90 model by chance?;) Lovely car btw!

hahaha I'd just bought it when i went to JZM and tbh Russ was bowled over by it. Said he'd not seen one like mine condition wise for a long time. I was there looking at a 7 GT2.

[Wozy68]

Slippydiff said:

ras62 said:

IMIA said:

No apparently the 93 cars had an engine closer to the 993. Def not pre 93 and you have to be careful as some 90.91,92 cars that were sat at dealer forecourts were registered in 93 and aren't real 93 cars. 964 was a very expensive cars compared to its pier group at the time and wasn't a good seller.

No late 964 was fitted with the 993 crankshaft, rods or pistons or the self adjusting/lighter valve system. All 964 engines are essentially the same including the RS. Various trim parts on the early 993 cars can also be found on late build 964's but that's as far as it goes.

The 993's increase in horsepower (250 v's 272) was allegedly down to an improvement in the efficiency of 993's exhaust system. Apart from the previously mentioned hydraulic lifters there was little difference between the two engines mechanically.

Regarding cars sitting around unsold at dealers, in the case of C2's it's fairly easy to differentiate between early and and late model years by looking at the rear brake calipers, early cars had 2 pots, later (and all C4's ?) had 4 pots.

I'm not so sure this is correct ref the engines, or maybe a comer is missing?. !!!

Def true that a lot of the 964 C2/4 sat around for ages before being registered. There were a lot of 1990 model cars still being registered as late as 1993.

I know it sounds all the time that I am anti 964, but for all the positives we hear today ref the 964, back in the day it wasn't that well appreciated, and that was partially why it didn't sell. It wasn't just down to the recession.

Edited by Wozy68 on Saturday 14th March 19:40

[thegoose]

Ok, I'm not an expert but I understood that the engine design changed slightly to deal with oil leaks around 1991. The plastic induction was later think and was meant to give better torque (Colin at Ninemeister explained a few things about the engines at their recent Club open evening, I forget the details but I think the resonance flap may have had an influence).

The rear spring mounts were definitely different on later cars. I found out when I had the suspension changed on my 1989 C2 race car (which I think was originally LHD, but that's irrelevant here) and Unit 11 told me that the springs we'd got wouldn't fit as the shell had been modified to the later design. I don't whether such a modification is easy though, as my car had been built up from a bare shell by Eurotech including a very impressive comprehensive cage, so I've no idea how involved it was but it will certainly have been considerably easier on a bare shell. I don't know what the benefits are of the later design but my guess would be that to change it on a road car would be prohibitive cost-wise anyway.

964's were unloved for dodgy flywheels as well as leaky engines. They weren't alone in hanging around unsold though, that applied to 928's too.

[ras62]

Wozy68 said:

I'm not so sure this is correct ref the engines, or maybe a comer is missing?. !!!

Def true that a lot of the 964 C2/4 sat around for ages before being registered. There were a lot of 1990 model cars still being registered as late as 1993.

I know it sounds all the time that I am anti 964, but for all the positives we hear today ref the 964, back in the day it wasn't that well appreciated, and that was partially why it didn't sell. It wasn't just down to the recession.

Edited by Wozy68 on Saturday 14th March 19:40

The only negatives I recall at the launch was that a C2 was not available as all cars were C4. All the other tests were hugely favorable as the car was a big leap forward over the 3.2 cars in so many ways. Actually, that's not all true either. The RS was roundly slated by UK magazines for having suspension so hard that it was considered borderline undrivable, while the new bumper design didn't sit well with some purists....how times do change!

[ray stobbs]

my car is a late 91 c2 and has plastic intakes but single piston rear brakes and having just pulled my engine apart found no head gaskets installed so it looks like it took a long time to swap over o and love it

[fioran0]

Steve Rance said:

it was too good to miss. It will be used regularly on road and track and is currently in build with Paul. These is so much fun at to be had in these little busses. Spec to follow.

Check you tommy two projects
Congrats on the addition. Look forward to seeing what you do to it. Hows the 997 trundling along?

[clinchy]

Red is fastest Steve ,nice looking car and very addictive





The one mistake was the RS logo on the carpet which I did not order !

[Wozy68]

clinchy said:

Red is fastest Steve ,nice looking car and very addictive





The one mistake was the RS logo on the carpet which I did not order !

I have to say, that's a lovely looking 964

[Steve Rance]

Just an update. The car is in build now. Paul has advised me that the car is a very original example and the mileage and provenance stacks up so we've decided not to do anything that may compromise that going forward. So things that I would have done - removing sound deadening etc - have been shelved. Spec will be;
Big red front brakes
993 C2 Rear
RS anti roll bars
Lightweight RS flywheel
RS engine mounts and mounting bracket strengthening plate
KW clubsport and andjustable top mounts
RS carpet set
RS door cards
Heigo cage
Pole positions
Momo removeable wheel
Radio blanking plate
Engine remap. Exhaust system unchanged.


Set up will be RS and a fair bit more.
Road Tyres to be decided. Road wheels Fuchs RSR
Track tyres to be decided.

Currently trying to source proper cup door mounted wing mirrors. Can anyone help

That's it - will update soon

Edited by Steve Rance on Saturday 11th July 11:33

[ras62]

A word to the wise Steve. If the RS carpet is as per original then it will not fit correctly/well if the sound deadening is left in place. Also a cat bypass is a real benefit if you are going to the expense of having Wayne work on the mapping...

Edited by ras62 on Sunday 5th July 22:17

[Steve Rance]

Thank you. We may have to find another solution then!

[BLACK-BETTY]

Morning,

Congrats on the purchase. Lots of modifying fun to be had with 964s, welcome to the slippery slope.

Check out the World 964 Owners, they're all (enthusiasts and industry pros) mod crazy with a wealth of knowledge from around the world. Check them out on Facebook and online www.world964owners.com They're a very friendly bunch and always happy to help.

Your mod list sounds lovely. Here's my example which I'm still modifying.

Edited by BLACK-BETTY on Monday 6th July 08:12

[Steve Rance]

Very very nice. 3.8? Might I ask where you sourced your wing mirrors?, I'm trying to source exactly those but for LHD

[IMI A]

When I see threads like this makes me want to mod the hell out of my bog standard 964 C2!!! That 3.8? looks fabulous

[Steve Rance]

ras62 said:

A word to the wise Steve. If the RS carpet is as per original then it will not fit correctly/well if the sound deadening is left in place. Also a cat bypass is a real benefit if you are going to the expense of having Wayne work on the mapping...

Edited by ras62 on Sunday 5th July 22:17

Just re read your post re the cat bypass. I know that i'm in the minority but years of racing has left me with Tinitus which gets worse if im not careful so I prefer a quieter life inside my cars these days!

[ras62]

You can get a cat bypass muffler that is slightly louder than standard but tbh running with the other two silencers in place the car will not be that noisy, especially from the drivers seat.

[Jevvy]

Steve Rance said:

Spec will be;
Big red front brakes
993 C2 Rear
RS anti roll bars
Lightweight RS flywheel
RS engine mounts and mounting bracket strengthening plate
KW clubsport and andjustable top mounts
RS carpet set
RS door cards
Heigo cage
Pole positions
Momo removeable wheel
Radio blanking plate
Wayne Scholfield remap. Exhaust system unchanged.

Set up will be RS and a fair bit more.
Road Tyres to be decided. Road wheels Fuchs RSR
Track tyres to be decided.

Nice list, should be a nice setup once its done. Couple-u thoughts:

Big reds etc - this gets quite expensive to do correctly and adds a chunk of weight, with a lightweight C2 and experienced racer that doesnt need to over brake you will be able to get the standard setup to work just fine with good discs, pads and fluid.

Have you seen the Rennline adjustable motor mounts? They seem a good compromise between RS and Wevo and allow a bit of tweaking. Also there is a semi solid gearbox mount insert if you want to firm up the front of the engine a bit too, the original one is probably a bit baggy by now. http://www.rennline.com/Tuneable-Semi-Solid-Engine...

Fuchs - I assume you mean these: http://www.fuchsfelge.de/index.php?id=190&L=1 if so good call, they are proper light

Couple of other ideas: Single pulley conversion(simpler, lighter and reversible), Electric power steering (removes PS pump drag from engine and moves some weight to the other end and easily reversible if you leave the lines in place). These 2 coupled with the lightweight flywheel you mention should make things rev a bit quicker. Heater blower motor bypass cleans up the engine bay and saves a bit of weight. Lightweight bonnet and store the original one.

Good luck with the build and keep us posted.