Discussion
Jevvy said:
Nice list, should be a nice setup once its done. Couple-u thoughts:
Big reds etc - this gets quite expensive to do correctly and adds a chunk of weight, with a lightweight C2 and experienced racer that doesnt need to over brake you will be able to get the standard setup to work just fine with good discs, pads and fluid.
Have you seen the Rennline adjustable motor mounts? They seem a good compromise between RS and Wevo and allow a bit of tweaking. Also there is a semi solid gearbox mount insert if you want to firm up the front of the engine a bit too, the original one is probably a bit baggy by now. http://www.rennline.com/Tuneable-Semi-Solid-Engine...
Fuchs - I assume you mean these: http://www.fuchsfelge.de/index.php?id=190&L=1 if so good call, they are proper light
Couple of other ideas: Single pulley conversion(simpler, lighter and reversible), Electric power steering (removes PS pump drag from engine and moves some weight to the other end and easily reversible if you leave the lines in place). These 2 coupled with the lightweight flywheel you mention should make things rev a bit quicker. Heater blower motor bypass cleans up the engine bay and saves a bit of weight. Lightweight bonnet and store the original one.
Good luck with the build and keep us posted.
Thanks for the advice. Much appreciated. To be honest, most of the mechanical build is now completed. I already had the big reds and adapters so there was no real cost implications. I'll look at the pulley conversaion though - good call Big reds etc - this gets quite expensive to do correctly and adds a chunk of weight, with a lightweight C2 and experienced racer that doesnt need to over brake you will be able to get the standard setup to work just fine with good discs, pads and fluid.
Have you seen the Rennline adjustable motor mounts? They seem a good compromise between RS and Wevo and allow a bit of tweaking. Also there is a semi solid gearbox mount insert if you want to firm up the front of the engine a bit too, the original one is probably a bit baggy by now. http://www.rennline.com/Tuneable-Semi-Solid-Engine...
Fuchs - I assume you mean these: http://www.fuchsfelge.de/index.php?id=190&L=1 if so good call, they are proper light
Couple of other ideas: Single pulley conversion(simpler, lighter and reversible), Electric power steering (removes PS pump drag from engine and moves some weight to the other end and easily reversible if you leave the lines in place). These 2 coupled with the lightweight flywheel you mention should make things rev a bit quicker. Heater blower motor bypass cleans up the engine bay and saves a bit of weight. Lightweight bonnet and store the original one.
Good luck with the build and keep us posted.
Steve Rance said:
Might I ask where you sourced your wing mirrors?, I'm trying to source exactly those but for LHD
Something like these? http://ruf-automobile.de/en/shop/carrera-de-6-en-e...IMI A said:
When I see threads like this makes me want to mod the hell out of my bog standard 964 C2!!! That 3.8? looks fabulous
When I bought my stock, 1990, C4 targa last June, I vowed to keep it in its original state. Well, I have broken that vow and I'm now on the 'slippery slope' mentioned earlier on this thread.New Bilstein/H&R Suspension, 18 inch Eta Beta Krone wheels, g-pipe, cup mirrors, Steve Wong chip, new rear and front lights. To come, front fogs delete, custom dial bezels, cup steering wheel.......and on and on.
Good fun!
OP, I'm really looking forward to seeing how your car turns out. Enjoy!
Steve Rance said:
Thanks for the advice. Much appreciated. To be honest, most of the mechanical build is now completed. I already had the big reds and adapters so there was no real cost implications. I'll look at the pulley conversaion though - good call
Good to hear, I assume you did the 993 master cylinder too otherwise you will have a very long soft brake pedal.This thread reminds me of how great it is to be around genuine enthusiasts who are happy to share their knowledge and experiences. The 964 really is a peach of a little car. I can see now why it has such a passionate following. the level of detail and quality of some of the builds that you Chaps have painstakingly put together is just lovely. Almost each car seems individual to its owner - an extension of his/her character. I am really looking forward to meeting some of you during the year if you happen to be at any of the track days that I'll be wobbling around at.
Steve Rance said:
Very very nice. 3.8? Might I ask where you sourced your wing mirrors?, I'm trying to source exactly those but for LHD
Wing mirrors IIRC are from FVD... be warned, visibility is very poor.IMI A said:
When I see threads like this makes me want to mod the hell out of my bog standard 964 C2!!! That 3.8? looks fabulous
Cheers, yup 3.8Steve Rance said:
This thread reminds me of how great it is to be around genuine enthusiasts who are happy to share their knowledge and experiences. The 964 really is a peach of a little car. I can see now why it has such a passionate following. the level of detail and quality of some of the builds that you Chaps have painstakingly put together is just lovely. Almost each car seems individual to its owner - an extension of his/her character. I am really looking forward to meeting some of you during the year if you happen to be at any of the track days that I'll be wobbling around at.
Nothing more to add, you hit the nail on the head. Kind words. Oh and to boot the camaraderie over the years is awesome fun.A load of the 'World 964 Owners' will be at Goodwood on October 3rd for a track day and meet. If not October 3rd - all events are open, free and posted on the Facebook page.
Cheers,
Edited by BLACK-BETTY on Tuesday 7th July 00:04
Steve,
Sounds like it will be fun ! It's going to be very close in spec to my old Slate Gray 964 C2, which you may remember. Can't remember if you ever drove it, though.....?
A couple of other thoughts. You could change to a manual steering rack and lose some more weight, but having had both power steering in the C2 and manual in the RS, I don't think there's actually much in it in terms of feel.
Not sure if it's been mentioned elsewhere, but with the Big Reds you should remove the brake bias valve altogether in order to get some more work out of the rears, otherwise it's a very front-biased set-up. Pagid RS-29 are the way to go, but you probably guessed that !
Taking some old rubber out of the bushings and replacing with PU really tightens things up, especially as you will be leaning pretty hard on it. Wishbones and the rear swing arms are the priority.
As suggested above, removing the rear heater blower motor saves a good chunk of weight high up in the engine bay without sacrificing much cabin heat. There is a trick to bypassing the relay to fool the heater control unit into thinking the blower is still there - otherwise you end up with the cabin fans not running as they should. There are several good threads on this on the Rennlist 964 forum.
Remove the brake disc dust shields to help cooling (they may be rusting to bits anyway).
993 master cylinder is not essential, but will give a firmer, more consistent pedal. 993 master cylinder requires a bit of bodging as the fittings are 10mm vs 12mm on the 964 one (or the other way round - can't remember).
Most track 964s seem to run with front strut-braces. Never been sure how much these really do, but they're not expensive and easy to fit / remove.
Rear wiper (if you have one) is easy to remove and saves a couple of kg high up - plug hole in screen with a rubber bung.
It really is worth chucking out the cat and exhaust primary in favour of a decat pipe and Cup-pipe - there's a big weight saving, and potential to gain some extra power with the remap. You won't have a problem with noise anywhere other than Bedford - should be around 104db on the noise test. It's not antisocial on the road (certainly nothing like your 993 !)
All of these things are easily reversible, so you are not destroying originality or future value, but they enhance the track ability overall.
I look forward to seeing it in action.........
Jamie
Sounds like it will be fun ! It's going to be very close in spec to my old Slate Gray 964 C2, which you may remember. Can't remember if you ever drove it, though.....?
A couple of other thoughts. You could change to a manual steering rack and lose some more weight, but having had both power steering in the C2 and manual in the RS, I don't think there's actually much in it in terms of feel.
Not sure if it's been mentioned elsewhere, but with the Big Reds you should remove the brake bias valve altogether in order to get some more work out of the rears, otherwise it's a very front-biased set-up. Pagid RS-29 are the way to go, but you probably guessed that !
Taking some old rubber out of the bushings and replacing with PU really tightens things up, especially as you will be leaning pretty hard on it. Wishbones and the rear swing arms are the priority.
As suggested above, removing the rear heater blower motor saves a good chunk of weight high up in the engine bay without sacrificing much cabin heat. There is a trick to bypassing the relay to fool the heater control unit into thinking the blower is still there - otherwise you end up with the cabin fans not running as they should. There are several good threads on this on the Rennlist 964 forum.
Remove the brake disc dust shields to help cooling (they may be rusting to bits anyway).
993 master cylinder is not essential, but will give a firmer, more consistent pedal. 993 master cylinder requires a bit of bodging as the fittings are 10mm vs 12mm on the 964 one (or the other way round - can't remember).
Most track 964s seem to run with front strut-braces. Never been sure how much these really do, but they're not expensive and easy to fit / remove.
Rear wiper (if you have one) is easy to remove and saves a couple of kg high up - plug hole in screen with a rubber bung.
It really is worth chucking out the cat and exhaust primary in favour of a decat pipe and Cup-pipe - there's a big weight saving, and potential to gain some extra power with the remap. You won't have a problem with noise anywhere other than Bedford - should be around 104db on the noise test. It's not antisocial on the road (certainly nothing like your 993 !)
All of these things are easily reversible, so you are not destroying originality or future value, but they enhance the track ability overall.
I look forward to seeing it in action.........
Jamie
Jamie
Thank you. More good advice. When i'm running a Slip diff, i like a lot of forward brake bias as - when it's set up right - I use the diff to help settle the rear of car and trim the nose on he brakes. I'll try the brake set up without removing the bias valve and see how it feels. If It's difficult, i'll remove it. As long as the ABS doesnt lock the fronts it may be ideal for me.
I remember your slate grey car. Not sure that I ever drove it though. Those days, I always seemed to be driving other people's GT3's!
Thank you. More good advice. When i'm running a Slip diff, i like a lot of forward brake bias as - when it's set up right - I use the diff to help settle the rear of car and trim the nose on he brakes. I'll try the brake set up without removing the bias valve and see how it feels. If It's difficult, i'll remove it. As long as the ABS doesnt lock the fronts it may be ideal for me.
I remember your slate grey car. Not sure that I ever drove it though. Those days, I always seemed to be driving other people's GT3's!
Steve Rance said:
Jamie
Thank you. More good advice. When i'm running a Slip diff, i like a lot of forward brake bias as - when it's set up right - I use the diff to help settle the rear of car and trim the nose on he brakes. I'll try the brake set up without removing the bias valve and see how it feels. If It's difficult, i'll remove it. As long as the ABS doesnt lock the fronts it may be ideal for me.
I remember your slate grey car. Not sure that I ever drove it though. Those days, I always seemed to be driving other people's GT3's!
Unless you have the front-end set up insanely stiff you shouldn't have a problem with the ABS triggering. It is worth noting, however, that the RS ABS was calibrated differently to the C2, and the Cup Racer different still (I think). Most of the Cup Racers had an ABS kill-switch on the dash, so drivers could over-ride it if it was intervening too much. Wouldn't be a difficult thing to wire in if it proved necessary for you. Thank you. More good advice. When i'm running a Slip diff, i like a lot of forward brake bias as - when it's set up right - I use the diff to help settle the rear of car and trim the nose on he brakes. I'll try the brake set up without removing the bias valve and see how it feels. If It's difficult, i'll remove it. As long as the ABS doesnt lock the fronts it may be ideal for me.
I remember your slate grey car. Not sure that I ever drove it though. Those days, I always seemed to be driving other people's GT3's!
It's a fairly basic 3-channel ABS system - I know Colin Belton always favours upgrading to the 993 4-channel system on his car builds, so that could be a consideration?
All of the different variations of 964 ran with different ratio bias valves, so chances are you will be able to find one to suit, or remove altogether and replace with a variable one. I ended up running with the valve from the 964 3.3 Turbo (70 bar ???), but I was using 993 calipers front and rear with standard MC, not Big Reds. Those were plenty strong and consistent enough, but if you have the Big Reds sitting there, then it gives you the opportunity to run a larger disc and get more life out of your brakes.
Jamie
Hi Jamie
We had a lot of problems balancing spring rates at the front to camber adjustment on the GT3 as the governing factor was the abs. To be honest, I am a little worries about this issue with my 964 because I think that the front spring rate on the KW clubsport is 340lbs which is twice what the V3 is. I want to run at least 2.25-2.5 deg of neg camber on the front so I could have problems with abs if the front bias is too high.
it will be interesting to see what happens. As you say, I can change the proportioning valve but I still need a strong forward bias.
It's all fun..
We had a lot of problems balancing spring rates at the front to camber adjustment on the GT3 as the governing factor was the abs. To be honest, I am a little worries about this issue with my 964 because I think that the front spring rate on the KW clubsport is 340lbs which is twice what the V3 is. I want to run at least 2.25-2.5 deg of neg camber on the front so I could have problems with abs if the front bias is too high.
it will be interesting to see what happens. As you say, I can change the proportioning valve but I still need a strong forward bias.
It's all fun..
BertBert said:
Jamie Summers said:
Most of the Cup Racers had an ABS kill-switch on the dash, so drivers could over-ride it if it was intervening too much. Wouldn't be a difficult thing to wire in if it proved necessary for you.
Hope the MoT man is friendly, otherwise he won't approve!
Project sounds great Steve, any pictures of the car so far? Reading all this is making me want to go find a nice clean 964C2 and strip it to within an inch of its life then tart-up with a few shiny bits and pieces.
Are you touching the engine at all?
Lots of information on different brake setups and bias valves http://rennlist.com/forums/964-forum/616217-brake-...
Great thread. Thank you for positng it up. What's interesting is that there seems to be a general preference to add more rear bias to a car for high perfrmance/track work. I would be always looking to keep my bias as far to the front as possible only winding to the rear when it's damp or wet relying of my diff to keep the rear end stable
Steve,
I'm not sure it's really a case of wanting to shift bias rearwards, it's more wanting to correct the extra forward bias you introduce by going with substantially bigger front calipers. It's merely trying to recreate the factory front / rear balance, which is thought to be pretty good, but using different sized calipers.
I agree that the last thing you want is too much rear bias, but you do want the rears to do some of the work. Interestingly my race Clio may as well not have rear brakes at all for all the work they do. Even after a 45 minute race they're barely hot. It doesn't seem to be a detriment to the handling of the car, and the big Wilwood calipers on the front make it stand on its nose all day long. Clearly a different game though with a very light front engine / front driver.
Jamie
I'm not sure it's really a case of wanting to shift bias rearwards, it's more wanting to correct the extra forward bias you introduce by going with substantially bigger front calipers. It's merely trying to recreate the factory front / rear balance, which is thought to be pretty good, but using different sized calipers.
I agree that the last thing you want is too much rear bias, but you do want the rears to do some of the work. Interestingly my race Clio may as well not have rear brakes at all for all the work they do. Even after a 45 minute race they're barely hot. It doesn't seem to be a detriment to the handling of the car, and the big Wilwood calipers on the front make it stand on its nose all day long. Clearly a different game though with a very light front engine / front driver.
Jamie
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