Discussion
I took the car to Snetterton 300 yesterday to try it on the track. To be honest, I expected it to need a few set up adjustments but it had a lovely balance straight out of the box. I think that It needs a driving technique similar to a GT3 but the trail doesn't need to be anywhere as deep into apex. The 40% lockng factory diff set up was perfect. Where a deep trail was needed, I found the car would rotate nicely at tight apexes with a lift to unlock the diff. The cup 2's did not behave as i was expecting and screeched away in just about every corner. On saying that, the slip angles were small. Quite a different to the original cups which gave up grip much less progressively. Either way, they worked in terms of speed because the pace that the car had yesterday would have put it close to the top of the grid at last year's Future classic race. Not bad for a car with air con, electric windows and a standard engine and gearbox. All it needs is a little more camber. The heat spread on the tyres was a too outer biased. Maybe half a degree on the front and one degree on the rear.
Overall, an absolute delight to drive, lot's of fun, very rewarding and pacy. Also, would be very forgiving for a novice driver. you can take liberties with it that would spit you off instantly in a GT3.
The car is everything that I wanted it to be and more both on the road and track.
I will post up driving impressions in more detail and some in car footage when I have time.
Overall, an absolute delight to drive, lot's of fun, very rewarding and pacy. Also, would be very forgiving for a novice driver. you can take liberties with it that would spit you off instantly in a GT3.
The car is everything that I wanted it to be and more both on the road and track.
I will post up driving impressions in more detail and some in car footage when I have time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXzMkKmdUZY
Just a short clip from the day. turn up the volume and you can hear the cups squirming
Just a short clip from the day. turn up the volume and you can hear the cups squirming
Actually no understeer issues. The slow rack just makes it look like understeer. The tyre squeel was either rear or all 4 wheel drifting. As said, more camber will improve the footprint and things will probably quieten down.
Interestingly no bump steer issues under turn in at all. Very easy to drive at speed
Interestingly no bump steer issues under turn in at all. Very easy to drive at speed
Nice Guys, I had a chat with a few during lunch. They trotted off to crack a bottle of champers to toast someone sorely missed. A nice touch I thought.
Looking forward to some more BHP. The long back straight was a little too long for my taste on Friday but the little car redeemed itself through the complex, the bomb hole and Coram.
Will post up next time I'm out. Will be good to meet up
Looking forward to some more BHP. The long back straight was a little too long for my taste on Friday but the little car redeemed itself through the complex, the bomb hole and Coram.
Will post up next time I'm out. Will be good to meet up
It will be even more capable with more camber and a remap! I think that there is a second or two of pace to come yet.
Although there isnt enough camber there is still a nice balance. If you look carefully, the throttle has a aluminium cover which refects on full throttle. You can see that I am pretty much flat on the apex of most corners (some are very late apex's)unless traffic is in the way. Thats what you want from a well set up 911. If you can't pick up full throttle at the apex, you have either carried too much speed in, you have a bad balance in the car - or you arn't trying hard enough!
Although there isnt enough camber there is still a nice balance. If you look carefully, the throttle has a aluminium cover which refects on full throttle. You can see that I am pretty much flat on the apex of most corners (some are very late apex's)unless traffic is in the way. Thats what you want from a well set up 911. If you can't pick up full throttle at the apex, you have either carried too much speed in, you have a bad balance in the car - or you arn't trying hard enough!
Quick update. I took the car to Oulton without making any changes. It felt nicely balanced and I ran the cup 2's at 2.1 bar all round. A little less tyre squeal but it definitely needs more camber. The clubsport suspension is a nice addition to a 964. The brake set up is lovely. Would definitely recommend IT for chaps building a 964 hot rod. I was looking for a time under 2 minutes but only managed 2.02. There was no more in the car as it is. Only a few more things to complete the build to my preference. For the chassis, more camber. The current 2 degrees is not enough. Another degree front and rear. Rake angle, toe and caster are fine. This will help make the most of the Cup 2's. For the engine, a cat bypass and a Wayne Scholfield remap. This should liberate some useful extra power. Finally, some 6 point harnesses and that will be job done and a very lovely little car which should mince around Oulton in under 2 minutes which was my aim at the beginning of the build. Not shatteringly quick by today's standards but quick enough to be a lot of fun in a car that retains its electric windows and air con for the odd euro trip.
That RS looks like it's behaving itself nicely. Well driven. I had to work a little harder to get my time as the mechanic grip had run out and I was relying on the surplus of phyical grip in the tyres. Things will balance up with more camber. a Tidier Sub 2 mins should be on with a sharper geo and a map. I suppose if the C2 race cars were running 1.56 on cups a sub 2.0 min from a road car is reasonably decent.
Thread update. I added another degree of neg camber on the rear and 1.75 on the front to sharpen the set up a bit to try and get the tyres working a little better. Now have -3 deg rear and -2.75 front. If I were running a slick tyre I'd have more front camber than rear but on Cup2's and with more forward brake bias that would compromise the ABS system.
This set up is definitely an improvement. The car is more predictable, works it's tyres better and has more pace. I will pop over to Snetterton on a dry day and get some data for some comparisons but from feel the pace difference is quite substantial. A little more trail is needed to work the front in as the grip bias has passed a little more to the rear but the car doesn't need anywhere bear as much work on the nose as say a 996 or 7 GT3. Still a very easy car to drive..
And even more fun :-)
This set up is definitely an improvement. The car is more predictable, works it's tyres better and has more pace. I will pop over to Snetterton on a dry day and get some data for some comparisons but from feel the pace difference is quite substantial. A little more trail is needed to work the front in as the grip bias has passed a little more to the rear but the car doesn't need anywhere bear as much work on the nose as say a 996 or 7 GT3. Still a very easy car to drive..
And even more fun :-)
Just a thread update. Had the 964 remapped by Wayne Scholfied yesterday after fitting a Dansk Cat bypass. Very impressed with Wayne who spent hours smoothing out any small dips in power delivery. I told him what i wanted and he delivered it with no bullSh*t, which in the world of mapping is quite refreshing.
A few minor odds to do but the car is basically there now so i'll take it along to the RS day at Oulton and see how the package works now as a whole.
A few minor odds to do but the car is basically there now so i'll take it along to the RS day at Oulton and see how the package works now as a whole.
Quick update. The car has been running beautifully all year - Still my default hooner. A few upgrades for the winter that I'll report back on. All that's been needed during the year is to sort the aircon which cost about £250
So; I'm having the front control arm and rear trailing arm bushes replaced with Elephant racing sport items. The car is pretty tight already but a little of the sharpness in the geometry is lost with the extra compliance of the standard bushing. Whilst the suspension is stripped I'm having some brembo/Alcon groved floating discs made up as the standard items need replacing and I prefer running a set up which is a little more heavy duty. Pretty straight forward as the front discs are 993RS and the rears are 964RS. Alcon and Brembo make all sizes between them so it's just a matter of who makes those particular sizes. Once the suspension is all back together, I'll have the geo checked as the chances are it would have moved a little. Finally I am replacing the factory LSD with a Guards GT transmissions Pro LSD unit with either a 40/40 or 50/80 ramp set (undecided) with a custom preload. These final upgrades will give me the perfect platform for my requirements -which I accept wont be to most people's tastes. To counter the extra stiffness I will either run 17 inch road wheels and a tyre with a thicker/more compliant side wall or just put a little extra foam under the seat pads of the recaros and take it out when the car is tracked - which Sounds a far better to me.
Also starting on the 997 GT3 gen 1 project - Will update
So; I'm having the front control arm and rear trailing arm bushes replaced with Elephant racing sport items. The car is pretty tight already but a little of the sharpness in the geometry is lost with the extra compliance of the standard bushing. Whilst the suspension is stripped I'm having some brembo/Alcon groved floating discs made up as the standard items need replacing and I prefer running a set up which is a little more heavy duty. Pretty straight forward as the front discs are 993RS and the rears are 964RS. Alcon and Brembo make all sizes between them so it's just a matter of who makes those particular sizes. Once the suspension is all back together, I'll have the geo checked as the chances are it would have moved a little. Finally I am replacing the factory LSD with a Guards GT transmissions Pro LSD unit with either a 40/40 or 50/80 ramp set (undecided) with a custom preload. These final upgrades will give me the perfect platform for my requirements -which I accept wont be to most people's tastes. To counter the extra stiffness I will either run 17 inch road wheels and a tyre with a thicker/more compliant side wall or just put a little extra foam under the seat pads of the recaros and take it out when the car is tracked - which Sounds a far better to me.
Also starting on the 997 GT3 gen 1 project - Will update
Wayne is very good. The map is smooth, no holes/flat spots.
Not much difference up to 4000 rpm but from then on it's noticeable. My engine showed 248bhp before the map - once he had sorted a few minor electrical issues - and 302 bhp when he's finished. To be fair, conditions on the day were perfect. The air was dense and cold. I'd expect it to be 10bhp less on a hot dry day.
Well worth the time, effort and money. Interesting watching him work. Very thorough. The exhaust mod is only a Dansk cat bypass pipe. In real terms the engine was a small hair dryer before the map and a bigger one afterwards, but the car isn't really about power.
Not much difference up to 4000 rpm but from then on it's noticeable. My engine showed 248bhp before the map - once he had sorted a few minor electrical issues - and 302 bhp when he's finished. To be fair, conditions on the day were perfect. The air was dense and cold. I'd expect it to be 10bhp less on a hot dry day.
Well worth the time, effort and money. Interesting watching him work. Very thorough. The exhaust mod is only a Dansk cat bypass pipe. In real terms the engine was a small hair dryer before the map and a bigger one afterwards, but the car isn't really about power.
Hi Graham. The engine is completely standard except for a Dansk cat bypass pipe. I was sceptical on power gain but the pre and post map dyno show a 50bhp gain. It's a very useful gain. As I said, no flat spots at all. It does pop and bang on over run a bit but with the extra feeling but it's generally quite civilised. Also now mapped for the light weight flywheel which makes it a lot nicer to drive. You would be welcome to a ride if I bring it to Oulton Park
Edited by Steve Rance on Sunday 11th December 12:28
Elephant Sport bushes have arrived along with the tarret Rose jointed spring plates so the car will go in for build in the next Week or so. I've also had the speedo refurbed and bought some upgraded head lamp and side light bulbs. I've desciddd against floating discs on the rear as I don't think they are worth the hastle of sorting the hand brake. So it's 964RS discs on the rear (not bad at £150 each) and floating 993 RS discs on the front.
Much written about bumpsteer problems related to the standard 964 front geometry. This maintly effects toe, which is relatively easy to drive around if you are running max caster. For me, this makes the cost/ hustle V benefit of fitting 993 evo uprights questionable. I am finding that the Elephant in the room - well medium sized dog anyway - is the movement of the rear axle. It can make the car feel a little vaigue at 10/10ths. It's relatively easily fixed by fitting rose jointed spring plates and stiffer bushes. Of course with the rear end tied down, it may transfer a problem to the front of the car as it asks for more apex speed, and with it perhaps the 993 Evo upgrade. I don't think it will as the car already has a lot of pace (relatively) and I don't think that there is a lot more to come. Based on that, I don't see a major balance disparity looming.
Will post up pics of the bushes and spring plates when I get time.
Much written about bumpsteer problems related to the standard 964 front geometry. This maintly effects toe, which is relatively easy to drive around if you are running max caster. For me, this makes the cost/ hustle V benefit of fitting 993 evo uprights questionable. I am finding that the Elephant in the room - well medium sized dog anyway - is the movement of the rear axle. It can make the car feel a little vaigue at 10/10ths. It's relatively easily fixed by fitting rose jointed spring plates and stiffer bushes. Of course with the rear end tied down, it may transfer a problem to the front of the car as it asks for more apex speed, and with it perhaps the 993 Evo upgrade. I don't think it will as the car already has a lot of pace (relatively) and I don't think that there is a lot more to come. Based on that, I don't see a major balance disparity looming.
Will post up pics of the bushes and spring plates when I get time.
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