Can't afford a 964 then buy a 993
Discussion
Reading the 306GTI front article today (Peugeot 309 GTI: Spotted) and it was discussing how the values of certain models get pulled up by their more desirable siblings. In this case the 306GTI getting dragged up by the rise of the 205GTI. To illustrate the point the following was written
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Because in 2016, another three-door 309 GTI - with a much lower mileage, granted - is for sale at £10,000. Sure, it's a nicer example, but not that much so. What's happened then?
The 205 GTI, essentially. As values for that have skyrocketed, so the mechanically similar 309 has been brought up by association. It's happened elsewhere too: E28 M5s appreciated to a crazy level, drawing attention to the E34 M5 with which its engine was shared. As 964s became out of reach, so buyers moved to 993s to get their air-cooled 911 fix. And as Ferrari 355s continue to head towards six figures, the 360 Modena becomes more desirable as the next (and slightly more attainable) V8 berlinetta down the Ferrari line.
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Reality ?
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Because in 2016, another three-door 309 GTI - with a much lower mileage, granted - is for sale at £10,000. Sure, it's a nicer example, but not that much so. What's happened then?
The 205 GTI, essentially. As values for that have skyrocketed, so the mechanically similar 309 has been brought up by association. It's happened elsewhere too: E28 M5s appreciated to a crazy level, drawing attention to the E34 M5 with which its engine was shared. As 964s became out of reach, so buyers moved to 993s to get their air-cooled 911 fix. And as Ferrari 355s continue to head towards six figures, the 360 Modena becomes more desirable as the next (and slightly more attainable) V8 berlinetta down the Ferrari line.
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Reality ?
Edited by C4ME on Tuesday 11th October 10:42
Not really where the two Porsche are concerned. They both command equally strong money now but 5 years ago the 964 was the cheaper car. These days many prefer both the look and the more connected drive of the earlier cars but there are some on here like Wozy who maintains they are the devils work and ready to throw you into a ditch at the first opportunity;)
ras62 said:
Not really where the two Porsche are concerned. They both command equally strong money now but 5 years ago the 964 was the cheaper car. These days many prefer both the look and the more connected drive of the earlier cars but there are some on here like Wozy who maintains they are the devils work and ready to throw you into a ditch at the first opportunity;)
Much the same as 3.2 Carrera prices as well.3.2 Carrera, 964 and 993 are all in the same ball park model, spec and condition dependant.
ras62 said:
Not really where the two Porsche are concerned. They both command equally strong money now but 5 years ago the 964 was the cheaper car.
It's funny how much it's changed. I bought my 964 in 2000 I think - it was one of the early 1989 C4s and was coming up to 12 years old. Bought from a dealer for £17,500.Back then, they were not popular cars and were still trying to shake off the reputation of exploding DMFs and oil leaks.
At the time, I couldn't afford a 993 although I much preferred the looks. A year or so later I could - but was disappointed to find that the 993 interior was just as dated as the 964 one and I wasn't willing to spend the difference - which was still pretty significant.
Towards the end of my ownership, I began to prefer the classic lines of the 964 to the 993. I think it deserves to be similarly priced - but as others have said, I'm not convinced it will ever overtake the 993.
RDMcG said:
I think the 993 series is aesthetically the peak of 911 design.
That's what I thought when I swapped my first 3.2 Carrera....
....for a manual 993 C4 with varioram.
But I love 3.2's more and was soon back in another one.
Still to sample a 964 and a GT3 is also on the bucket list.
A few years ago the early SWB 911's were unwanted, the 70-73 models were more expensive. Over time the earlier cars overtook the later cars, they now command more money. The 993 and the 964 will follow the same path in my opinion. A few years ago the 993 was more expensive, they are now like for like when you find a good example. In time the 964 will be more valuable. They made less of them, they are far prettier, the faults they had were minor and generally have been fixed by now, and in my opinion they are the pinnacle in terms of looks, time will determine that the 993's lines are not pure enough and are watered down...
JamesBrown123 said:
A few years ago the early SWB 911's were unwanted, the 70-73 models were more expensive. Over time the earlier cars overtook the later cars, they now command more money. The 993 and the 964 will follow the same path in my opinion. A few years ago the 993 was more expensive, they are now like for like when you find a good example. In time the 964 will be more valuable. They made less of them, they are far prettier, the faults they had were minor and generally have been fixed by now, and in my opinion they are the pinnacle in terms of looks, time will determine that the 993's lines are not pure enough and are watered down...
Production volumes 993 vs 964 very similar. C4ME said:
JamesBrown123 said:
A few years ago the early SWB 911's were unwanted, the 70-73 models were more expensive. Over time the earlier cars overtook the later cars, they now command more money. The 993 and the 964 will follow the same path in my opinion. A few years ago the 993 was more expensive, they are now like for like when you find a good example. In time the 964 will be more valuable. They made less of them, they are far prettier, the faults they had were minor and generally have been fixed by now, and in my opinion they are the pinnacle in terms of looks, time will determine that the 993's lines are not pure enough and are watered down...
Production volumes 993 vs 964 very similar. have had both, love them equally! 964 bit more hardcore. made my missus' hair smell more oily than the 993, her biggest complaint. ha. Although the 993 has no torpedo headlights which its a joy to look out over, it does retain that beautiful rear sweep which became kind of bulbous-looking 996 onwards, apparently due to new crash regulations.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
The 964 was the biggest change to the 911 platform until the 996 came along. It was not a shoe string budget, far from it. All new suspension, new engines, new HVAC....80% changed from the 3.2 so real money items, not just plastic bumpers.Edit...I forgot the new ABS braking and 959 derived 4wd system!
Edited by ras62 on Wednesday 12th October 14:06
They do say that is was 85% new compared to the 3.2.
I would go with 15% the same and the rest very similar...but new
Either way, rightly or wrongly, I think 964 prices will overtake 993 prices. It's just what happens when cars go from 'the old model, rather have the newer one' to 'proper classic'. Generally around 30 years old plus.
I would go with 15% the same and the rest very similar...but new
Either way, rightly or wrongly, I think 964 prices will overtake 993 prices. It's just what happens when cars go from 'the old model, rather have the newer one' to 'proper classic'. Generally around 30 years old plus.
So we've gone from a shoe string budget to a very heavy face lift eh cmoose! Progress I guess, but seriously go and look under a 3.2 and a 964 and you will see what I'm talking about. The design and development cost nearly bankrupted Porsche when recession hit. New wiring systems...control units for spoiler, ABS, PDAS the list goes on. The silhouette may look familiar but little under the skin was the same.
Porsche philosophy was always to evolve. The 928 had not as predicted replaced the 911 which was still the top selling car so the objective of the 964 model was never about building a new car but again evolving to address the shortcomings of the long lived 3.2 cars relative to the competition. To achieve this Porsche had to completely re engineer the car to give better nvh, performance, safely and emissions. Only years later when it became clear the air cooled cars wouldn't be able to meet ever stricter emission legislation was the company forced to radically change the car which was aided in large part by CAD being available for the first time.
ras62 said:
Not really where the two Porsche are concerned. They both command equally strong money now but 5 years ago the 964 was the cheaper car. These days many prefer both the look and the more connected drive of the earlier cars but there are some on here like Wozy who maintains they are the devils work and ready to throw you into a ditch at the first opportunity;)
My opinion has always been based on straight from the factory supplied cars, I have seen first hand what a great positive difference modern suspension can do to a 964.Out of the box IMO 993 is a far more enjoyable drive and especially on unknown roads than a 964. I dont agree with this much verbatim pre 993 'last of the analogue 911s' b
ks. Pure journo speak. I think however it doesnt matter what is the better car these days, that kind of thinking disapears as they all get older and values rise.
Orangecurry said:
Wozzer is a violent man?
Sorry matey only just seen this thread, mainly because I've spent the last few days laid up with a rather attractive female Pathologist (You wanna pull intelligent women, become a woodworker 
). Anyway back on track. Its ok, your on my buddy list, you'll see no trouble from me, RAS however, well, I'm checking out ditches over the weekend. It would be a whole lot easier to do though, if I still owned the 964. 
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