Can't afford a 964 then buy a 993
Discussion
Long term I agree 964 C2 will outperform both 3.2 Carrera and 993 C2. World wide there was only 18000 964s made and about 10% of them were RHD. UK supplied RHD 964 C2 manual have become relatively rare and sought after. Having said that I don't think 993 C2 will be far behind and I'd love to own a nice one. Saw a slate grey 993 C2 yesterday and to my eye it looked stunning.
The plastic bumpers on the 964 were inspired by the 959 and maybe even the Ruf Yellowbird. Driving a 964 C2 back to back regularly with a 3.2 Carrera it feels as though the two cars are virtually 40 years apart in terms of the driving experience. I actually prefer the 3.2 Carrera as it's control weights are far more precise and the whole driving experience is pure and raw compared to a 964. Build quality on 964 is fabulous though and many people say the 993 not quite as robust due to drastic cost cutting due to the poor financial state of Porsche back in the early 90s.
The plastic bumpers on the 964 were inspired by the 959 and maybe even the Ruf Yellowbird. Driving a 964 C2 back to back regularly with a 3.2 Carrera it feels as though the two cars are virtually 40 years apart in terms of the driving experience. I actually prefer the 3.2 Carrera as it's control weights are far more precise and the whole driving experience is pure and raw compared to a 964. Build quality on 964 is fabulous though and many people say the 993 not quite as robust due to drastic cost cutting due to the poor financial state of Porsche back in the early 90s.
Edited by IMI A on Wednesday 12th October 15:56
IMI A said:
Long term I agree 964 C2 will outperform both 3.2 Carrera and 993 C2. World wide there was only 18000 964s made and about 10% of them were RHD. UK supplied RHD 964 C2 manual have become relatively rare and sought after.
Is that 964 C2 numbers? Because it's allegedly 62,000 total 964 worldwide vs 68,000 total 993.857 RHD 993 C2 were made for the UK market.
IMI A said:
Build quality on 964 is fabulous though and many people say the 993 not quite as robust due to drastic cost cutting due to the poor financial state of Porsche back in the early 90s.
Can you point out any of these people... who don't own a 964? 
Mid to late 80's and Porsche was flush with cash, there was no scrimping when the 964 was developed. The recession of the early 90's is what changed the company which was by then making huge losses. By 1994 the Japanese were tasked with helping transform how Porsche built its cars..
http://evop.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/ex-toyota-manag...
http://evop.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/ex-toyota-manag...
Wozy68 said:
Sorry matey only just seen this thread, mainly because I've spent the last few days laid up with a rather attractive female Pathologist (You wanna pull intelligent women, become a woodworker 
).
Do you mean Physiotherapist, because you put your back out, or Pathologist because you make coffins?). hondansx said:
The 993 has always held its money well. The 964 you could pick up for £15k easy a few years ago.
Has the world really woken up, or just been manipulated?
I was one of those (I actually paid less than that). I actually wanted a 993 at the time but couldn't afford one because they were at least £10K more (but don't tell Wozy that Has the world really woken up, or just been manipulated?
). It's shocking to think that good 993s could be bought for around £25K back then too! 
To be honest the 964C2 on it's original, old and tired, suspension was rubbish to drive but being just about the cheapest 911 you could buy at the time, it gave me an almost blank canvas to drip money in to and upgrade. Changing the suspension and a proper geo turned it into an entirely different car to drive on both road and tracks. Further upgrades like replacing the sagging fluid filled engine mounts, fitting the four pot brake calipers from the C4 to the rear, swapping to a light weight flywheel and doing some 964RS style lightening (carpets, door cards, seats, etc) made it more enjoyable and more capable to drive. Many others did the same while they were cheap to buy.
So I guess it's part manipulation by some that turned 964s into great cars to drive and then others woke up when they heard about the fun that 964 owners were having.
I'd like to say that I saw the future of the 964 back then but the reality is that I was just lucky that I couldn't afford any other 911 at the time!
They spent an absolute fortune on developing the 964, the most of any car in Porsche's history. People quickly forget how technologically advanced it was in the last 80's.
If they had put head gaskets in from the start, a better flywheel and not put all the cars multiple electronic ECU wiring through the heating control unit in the dash, it would have been one of the best Porsche's ever made... Which people are starting to realise now...
If they had put head gaskets in from the start, a better flywheel and not put all the cars multiple electronic ECU wiring through the heating control unit in the dash, it would have been one of the best Porsche's ever made... Which people are starting to realise now...
IMI A said:
Long term I agree 964 C2 will outperform both 3.2 Carrera and 993 C2. World wide there was only 18000 964s made and about 10% of them were RHD. UK supplied RHD 964 C2 manual have become relatively rare and sought after. Having said that I don't think 993 C2 will be far behind and I'd love to own a nice one. Saw a slate grey 993 C2 yesterday and to my eye it looked stunning...
Isn't the 18,000 produced the figure for the 964 C2 Coupe only? Corresponding number for 993 C2 Coupe is approx 23,000 (14,500 NVR plus 8,500 VR).The UK numbers for the RHD 993 C2 Coupe is 857. If 10% of 964 were RHD that would equate to 1,800 RHD 964 Carrera 2 which seems high. Never seen accurate UK numbers for the 964. Anybody know them?
Both 993 and 964 were over 60,000 produced in total.
cmoose the reason Porsche didn't try a new car is really very simple. The 928 experience. It didn't sell like anticipated because it didn't look like a Porsche. The company didn't want to risk killing the model that defined the company and paid the bills. It had nothing to do with a shortage of money. As stated, those woes came later. Convinced yet?
Orangecurry said:
IMI A said:
Long term I agree 964 C2 will outperform both 3.2 Carrera and 993 C2. World wide there was only 18000 964s made and about 10% of them were RHD. UK supplied RHD 964 C2 manual have become relatively rare and sought after.
Is that 964 C2 numbers? Because it's allegedly 62,000 total 964 worldwide vs 68,000 total 993.857 RHD 993 C2 were made for the UK market.
IMI A said:
Build quality on 964 is fabulous though and many people say the 993 not quite as robust due to drastic cost cutting due to the poor financial state of Porsche back in the early 90s.
Can you point out any of these people... who don't own a 964? On the 993 build quality I heard it from Hairpin Co - for example quality of leather, later hard back sports seats etc all anecdotal no empirical evidence hence I have no idea whether true or not but I can say the way a 964 is built is special and lost in todays cars. Still want a 993. I think they're amazing.
ras62 said:
The 964 was the biggest change to the 911 platform until the 996 came along. It was not a shoe string budget, far from it. All new suspension, new engines, new HVAC....80% changed from the 3.2 so real money items, not just plastic bumpers.
Edit...I forgot the new ABS braking and 959 derived 4wd system!
The '80% new' was pure Porsche marketing bullocks. Porsche were starting to struggle at the time and the 964 was an update on a budget. However, they still made a sweet car that for many is the sweet spot!Edit...I forgot the new ABS braking and 959 derived 4wd system!
Edited by ras62 on Wednesday 12th October 14:06
The 993 was also done on a budget. They developed a totally new dash and interior which never made it to production due to cost restraints.
And for those that dont know, the Japanese lean methods were implemented during the 993's production, before the 996.
Just looking at 3.2 numbers.
Total production of the 911 3.2 Carrera series was 76,473 cars (35,670 coupé, 19,987 cabrio, 18,468 targa).
So 35,670 coupe.
Then add in some requirements:
- RHD only
- Coupe only
- G50 (87-89) cars
Consider how many have been lost to:
- Crashed
- Forward dated (remember that)
- Back dated
- Exported
- RUST
Suddenly a large potential pool of cars becomes significantly smaller. Even then you have to be very careful what you buy and either pay a premium upfront or face spending later to put a car right.
So you can see why good cars be it 3.2, 964 or 993 in the right spec (ideally manual, 2wd, coupe) will always command a premium.
Total production of the 911 3.2 Carrera series was 76,473 cars (35,670 coupé, 19,987 cabrio, 18,468 targa).
So 35,670 coupe.
Then add in some requirements:
- RHD only
- Coupe only
- G50 (87-89) cars
Consider how many have been lost to:
- Crashed
- Forward dated (remember that)
- Back dated
- Exported
- RUST
Suddenly a large potential pool of cars becomes significantly smaller. Even then you have to be very careful what you buy and either pay a premium upfront or face spending later to put a car right.
So you can see why good cars be it 3.2, 964 or 993 in the right spec (ideally manual, 2wd, coupe) will always command a premium.
mollytherocker said:
The '80% new' was pure Porsche marketing bullocks. Porsche were starting to struggle at the time and the 964 was an update on a budget. However, they still made a sweet car that for many is the sweet spot!
The 993 was also done on a budget. They developed a totally new dash and interior which never made it to production due to cost restraints.
And for those that dont know, the Japanese lean methods were implemented during the 993's production, before the 996.
Molly there is always a budget and the 964 was a particularly large one done on the back of record mid 80's sales. The changes made could simply not be done cheaply, they were too complex and far too wide ranging. I would be very surprised if more than 15% of parts were carried over to the 964. The 993 was also done on a budget. They developed a totally new dash and interior which never made it to production due to cost restraints.
And for those that dont know, the Japanese lean methods were implemented during the 993's production, before the 996.
boxsey said:
I was one of those (I actually paid less than that). I actually wanted a 993 at the time but couldn't afford one because they were at least £10K more (but don't tell Wozy that ). It's shocking to think that good 993s could be bought for around £25K back then too!
To be honest the 964C2 on it's original, old and tired, suspension was rubbish to drive but being just about the cheapest 911 you could buy at the time, it gave me an almost blank canvas to drip money in to and upgrade. Changing the suspension and a proper geo turned it into an entirely different car to drive on both road and tracks. Further upgrades like replacing the sagging fluid filled engine mounts, fitting the four pot brake calipers from the C4 to the rear, swapping to a light weight flywheel and doing some 964RS style lightening (carpets, door cards, seats, etc) made it more enjoyable and more capable to drive. Many others did the same while they were cheap to buy.
So I guess it's part manipulation by some that turned 964s into great cars to drive and then others woke up when they heard about the fun that 964 owners were having.
I'd like to say that I saw the future of the 964 back then but the reality is that I was just lucky that I couldn't afford any other 911 at the time!
). It's shocking to think that good 993s could be bought for around £25K back then too! To be honest the 964C2 on it's original, old and tired, suspension was rubbish to drive but being just about the cheapest 911 you could buy at the time, it gave me an almost blank canvas to drip money in to and upgrade. Changing the suspension and a proper geo turned it into an entirely different car to drive on both road and tracks. Further upgrades like replacing the sagging fluid filled engine mounts, fitting the four pot brake calipers from the C4 to the rear, swapping to a light weight flywheel and doing some 964RS style lightening (carpets, door cards, seats, etc) made it more enjoyable and more capable to drive. Many others did the same while they were cheap to buy.
So I guess it's part manipulation by some that turned 964s into great cars to drive and then others woke up when they heard about the fun that 964 owners were having.
I'd like to say that I saw the future of the 964 back then but the reality is that I was just lucky that I couldn't afford any other 911 at the time!
PS. I paid a tad under 13K for my 964 from Adrian Crawford ...... Black, C2 manual, sports seat with less than 40k miles back in 2005. A 964 RS could be bought for around 25K, the cheapest I saw was 23K. What would that be worth now
Edited by Wozy68 on Wednesday 12th October 23:59
davek_964 said:
ras62 said:
Not really where the two Porsche are concerned. They both command equally strong money now but 5 years ago the 964 was the cheaper car.
It's funny how much it's changed. I bought my 964 in 2000 I think - it was one of the early 1989 C4s and was coming up to 12 years old. Bought from a dealer for £17,500.Back then, they were not popular cars and were still trying to shake off the reputation of exploding DMFs and oil leaks.
At the time, I couldn't afford a 993 although I much preferred the looks. A year or so later I could - but was disappointed to find that the 993 interior was just as dated as the 964 one and I wasn't willing to spend the difference - which was still pretty significant.
Towards the end of my ownership, I began to prefer the classic lines of the 964 to the 993. I think it deserves to be similarly priced - but as others have said, I'm not convinced it will ever overtake the 993.
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