Can't afford a 964 then buy a 993
Discussion
Doubt they built a wind tunnel just for the 964... that would be some business case!
I'd invite you to take a look one of my NSXs. During development, a new factory was built just for them. A number of technological advances were made too, and it was launched just a year later than the 964. Take a look underneath an NSX compared to an 964 and you may redefine your idea of 'big budget'!
You see a lot of advertising for facelifts talk about the amount of changes they have made. I think you have to accept that a lot of it is marketing. I'd wager the 85% figure - noted on Wikipedia - is likely taken from a brochure of some kind.
I suppose the right person to ask is someone who works on the older cars all day every day.
I'd invite you to take a look one of my NSXs. During development, a new factory was built just for them. A number of technological advances were made too, and it was launched just a year later than the 964. Take a look underneath an NSX compared to an 964 and you may redefine your idea of 'big budget'!
You see a lot of advertising for facelifts talk about the amount of changes they have made. I think you have to accept that a lot of it is marketing. I'd wager the 85% figure - noted on Wikipedia - is likely taken from a brochure of some kind.
I suppose the right person to ask is someone who works on the older cars all day every day.
...Porsche still enjoyed a favorable exchange rate of around DM3 to $1. Bott took some of this profit and installed a wind tunnel at Weissach. Based on financial strength and the look of the 959, Porsche's board approved Bott's new utilized body...
Taken from Porsche: A history of excellence.
One only needs to look through a parts list to understand where changes were made. Trust me, the list is enormous. The 85% figure is entirely believable. Agree on the NSX btw. It really shook the established players when it came to market.
Taken from Porsche: A history of excellence.
One only needs to look through a parts list to understand where changes were made. Trust me, the list is enormous. The 85% figure is entirely believable. Agree on the NSX btw. It really shook the established players when it came to market.
Funny to read a Porsche thread where Cmoose is plain wrong. Is that a PH first? :-)
I own both a 3,2 and a 964. Putting them side by side on a lift will very convincingly show how big a change it was. The correct analysis in my opinion is: Porsche had the cash, Porsche did their homework spending that cash and transfered the tech it could from its flagship development at the time, the 959, whilst staying true to the basic 911 shape, indeed not wanting to risk einen zweiten 928.
I own both a 3,2 and a 964. Putting them side by side on a lift will very convincingly show how big a change it was. The correct analysis in my opinion is: Porsche had the cash, Porsche did their homework spending that cash and transfered the tech it could from its flagship development at the time, the 959, whilst staying true to the basic 911 shape, indeed not wanting to risk einen zweiten 928.
FreudeamFahren said:
Funny to read a Porsche thread where Cmoose is plain wrong. Is that a PH first? :-)
I own both a 3,2 and a 964. Putting them side by side on a lift will very convincingly show how big a change it was. The correct analysis in my opinion is: Porsche had the cash, Porsche did their homework spending that cash and transfered the tech it could from its flagship development at the time, the 959, whilst staying true to the basic 911 shape, indeed not wanting to risk einen zweiten 928.
Which do you prefer : )I own both a 3,2 and a 964. Putting them side by side on a lift will very convincingly show how big a change it was. The correct analysis in my opinion is: Porsche had the cash, Porsche did their homework spending that cash and transfered the tech it could from its flagship development at the time, the 959, whilst staying true to the basic 911 shape, indeed not wanting to risk einen zweiten 928.
The 964 does have the classic front end which I like. However the rear of the 993 looks more appealing to me. The 993 was also penned by Englishman Toni Hatter and so is the classic BREXIT 911 
.
The other point I'd add, is try speaking to a Porsche specialist who's main bread and butter is repairs and I can tell you that I've known one particular such specialist based in Berkshire for 15+ years now and I've had numerous conversations when I was considering a 964/993 and he was not very flattering about the amount of work and issues surrounding 964's. That comes from somebody who's focus is mostly repairs, so worth a thought I reckon. The handling on the 993 is also superb thanks to that heavily revised suspension and the engine internal were strengthened - conrods etc. I believe from memory.
. The other point I'd add, is try speaking to a Porsche specialist who's main bread and butter is repairs and I can tell you that I've known one particular such specialist based in Berkshire for 15+ years now and I've had numerous conversations when I was considering a 964/993 and he was not very flattering about the amount of work and issues surrounding 964's. That comes from somebody who's focus is mostly repairs, so worth a thought I reckon. The handling on the 993 is also superb thanks to that heavily revised suspension and the engine internal were strengthened - conrods etc. I believe from memory.
FreudeamFahren said:
Funny to read a Porsche thread where Cmoose is plain wrong. Is that a PH first? :-)
I own both a 3,2 and a 964. Putting them side by side on a lift will very convincingly show how big a change it was. The correct analysis in my opinion is: Porsche had the cash, Porsche did their homework spending that cash and transfered the tech it could from its flagship development at the time, the 959, whilst staying true to the basic 911 shape, indeed not wanting to risk einen zweiten 928.
I'm slightly puzzled - the AWD 964 had three diffs, all mechanical, whereas the AWD 993 has two, with the central diff being replaced by a viscous coupling.I own both a 3,2 and a 964. Putting them side by side on a lift will very convincingly show how big a change it was. The correct analysis in my opinion is: Porsche had the cash, Porsche did their homework spending that cash and transfered the tech it could from its flagship development at the time, the 959, whilst staying true to the basic 911 shape, indeed not wanting to risk einen zweiten 928.
The 959 didn't have a center diff either - it was a viscous coupling - so what was taken from the 959 for the 964?
internet about the 959 said:
Drive forward was by a tube-encased shaft to a differential using a multi-plate clutch in an oil-filled chamber. Varying clutch-oil pressure determined the amount of front torque delivered, so no center differential was needed, though a locking rear diff was provided.
Torque apportioning was selectable via a steering-column stalk controlling four computer programs and a full-automatic mode. "Traction" locked the front clutch and rear diff for maximum pull in mud and snow. "Ice" split torque 50/50 front/rear, while "Wet" provided a 40/60 division that progressively increased to the rear on acceleration. "Dry" also offered a static 40/60, but could vary that up to 20/80 in all-out acceleration.
All this was accomplished via the Bosch Motronic engine computer used in conjunction with the wheel-mounted speed sensors of the new antilock braking system (developed with WABCO-Westinghouse) -- a first for a rear-engine Porsche. This apart, the brakes were stock 911 Turbo, albeit with larger front discs.
The suspension departed sharply from the 911 by employing double wishbones all around, plus twin shocks and concentric coil springs at each wheel. The shocks in each pair had separate damping roles; both were computer-controlled according to vehicle speed, with a choice of "soft," "firm," and "automatic" settings.
Torque apportioning was selectable via a steering-column stalk controlling four computer programs and a full-automatic mode. "Traction" locked the front clutch and rear diff for maximum pull in mud and snow. "Ice" split torque 50/50 front/rear, while "Wet" provided a 40/60 division that progressively increased to the rear on acceleration. "Dry" also offered a static 40/60, but could vary that up to 20/80 in all-out acceleration.
All this was accomplished via the Bosch Motronic engine computer used in conjunction with the wheel-mounted speed sensors of the new antilock braking system (developed with WABCO-Westinghouse) -- a first for a rear-engine Porsche. This apart, the brakes were stock 911 Turbo, albeit with larger front discs.
The suspension departed sharply from the 911 by employing double wishbones all around, plus twin shocks and concentric coil springs at each wheel. The shocks in each pair had separate damping roles; both were computer-controlled according to vehicle speed, with a choice of "soft," "firm," and "automatic" settings.
Edited by Orangecurry on Thursday 13th October 23:08
Porsche made a similar percentage claim about the 968 compared to the 944 S2. No one has ever really believed them even though the two cars have almost completely different body shells. They had an odd approach to things back then, spend a lot of time and money to come up with a new car that has tiny incremental improvements but is heavier, more complicated yet still straggled with the same flaws and almost identical packaging so it ends up looking like a facelift rather than a new car. Trailing arm rear suspension for example across all these cars or the tiny narrow cabin and interior of the 911 variants.
NJH said:
Porsche made a similar percentage claim about the 968 compared to the 944 S2. No one has ever really believed them even though the two cars have almost completely different body shells. They had an odd approach to things back then, spend a lot of time and money to come up with a new car that has tiny incremental improvements but is heavier, more complicated yet still straggled with the same flaws and almost identical packaging so it ends up looking like a facelift rather than a new car. Trailing arm rear suspension for example across all these cars or the tiny narrow cabin and interior of the 911 variants.
True, but with going from 964 to 993 there was a big improvement by removing/stopping all of the rust areas except screen surrounds (same central upper bodyshell) but instead introduced the rear chassis-leg dirt-trap 
Also there was a big step-up by getting rid of the rear trailing arms and using the rear of the 989 instead, which you only know is there as the rear of the 993 is fatter.
OC...The 964 used a 4wd system derived from the 959 but using the elecrtonic tech then available.
The 4WD system used by the 964 Carrera 4 of 1989 was one of the most advanced designs for the time being. It was derived from the 911 Carrera 4x4 racer which won Paris-Dakar rally in 1984, but the experienced learned from the 959 supercar also helped. In fact, Porsche described it as a simplified version of 959’s PSK system.
The system employed 3 differentials plus a multi-plate clutch. The epicyclic gear centre differential normally sent 31% to the front axle and 69% to the rear. Although it didn’t have 959-style variable torque split, the torque split is not fixed either. A multi-plate clutch incorporated with the centre differential would intervene whenever ABS sensors detected wheelspin at the rear wheels, hence sending more torque to the front wheels. This made the Carrera 4 more sophisticated than the contemporary pure-mechanical Audi quattro system.
The rear differential also incorporated a similar clutch acting as a limited slip differential. Again, the clutch is controlled by computer which got information from ABS sensors in individual wheels. Therefore the rear end of the Carrera 4 could hardly loose grip.
The 4WD system used by the 964 Carrera 4 of 1989 was one of the most advanced designs for the time being. It was derived from the 911 Carrera 4x4 racer which won Paris-Dakar rally in 1984, but the experienced learned from the 959 supercar also helped. In fact, Porsche described it as a simplified version of 959’s PSK system.
The system employed 3 differentials plus a multi-plate clutch. The epicyclic gear centre differential normally sent 31% to the front axle and 69% to the rear. Although it didn’t have 959-style variable torque split, the torque split is not fixed either. A multi-plate clutch incorporated with the centre differential would intervene whenever ABS sensors detected wheelspin at the rear wheels, hence sending more torque to the front wheels. This made the Carrera 4 more sophisticated than the contemporary pure-mechanical Audi quattro system.
The rear differential also incorporated a similar clutch acting as a limited slip differential. Again, the clutch is controlled by computer which got information from ABS sensors in individual wheels. Therefore the rear end of the Carrera 4 could hardly loose grip.
Thanks - I find all this stuff fascinating.
So they simplified it all for the 993, and reduced weight at the same time.
I still lie awake at night trying to figure out how 5% is transferred to the front wheels of the 993 in normal (no slip at the rear) operation.
Is this achieved by the density of the fluid in the VC? (Internet opinions vary.)
So they simplified it all for the 993, and reduced weight at the same time.
I still lie awake at night trying to figure out how 5% is transferred to the front wheels of the 993 in normal (no slip at the rear) operation.
Is this achieved by the density of the fluid in the VC? (Internet opinions vary.)
Orangecurry said:
True, but with going from 964 to 993 there was a big improvement by removing/stopping all of the rust areas except screen surrounds (same central upper bodyshell) but instead introduced the rear chassis-leg dirt-trap
Also there was a big step-up by getting rid of the rear trailing arms and using the rear of the 989 instead, which you only know is there as the rear of the 993 is fatter.
I'm not convinced they removed/stopped all rust areas on the 993, I'm just starting to get some bubbling around the sill that needs to be dealt with over the winter, classic 911 weakness area. Also have a tiny bubble appearing in one of the roof gutters. It's only because they're newer that they're not suffering as much corrosion as the 964 and earlierAlso there was a big step-up by getting rid of the rear trailing arms and using the rear of the 989 instead, which you only know is there as the rear of the 993 is fatter.
You might be unlucky, but I've never heard/seen any sill/upper body rust on a 993. The only one was Boo's (RIP) car, and that was because of previous accident damage which had damaged the galvanising/etc process layer.
Has yours had any accident damage?
ETA obviously I'm talking about rust from inside-to-out - any stone-chips through the protective layers (like around the wheelarches) if left untreated on any car will lead to outside-to-in rusting.
Has yours had any accident damage?
ETA obviously I'm talking about rust from inside-to-out - any stone-chips through the protective layers (like around the wheelarches) if left untreated on any car will lead to outside-to-in rusting.
Edited by Orangecurry on Friday 14th October 10:36
Not that I'm aware of, no cat status and all the gaps look perfect. Guess we'll see if there's anything suspicious when the bodyshop strip down the paint? It's only on the thin outer edge of the sill. Quote is £750 inc VAT to sort. Is on driver side, for some reason the photo has flipped
That's the flash, to the naked eye you can hardly make out the bubbles and it all looks great. Passenger side is perfect.
Personally think the car may just have been used through (salty road) winters in its past and/or stored outside & this is catching up with it a bit, hence the slight bubble I mentioned on the roof gutter....
Personally think the car may just have been used through (salty road) winters in its past and/or stored outside & this is catching up with it a bit, hence the slight bubble I mentioned on the roof gutter....
Mine is embarrassingly clean, and silver (which may reflect differently) but shows no line on that boundary.
(ETA doh! that obviously can't be caused by the rubber door seal leaving a mark, as that's not on the outer/door boundary)
But I would be very interested in what they think/find - good luck
(ETA doh! that obviously can't be caused by the rubber door seal leaving a mark, as that's not on the outer/door boundary)
But I would be very interested in what they think/find - good luck
Edited by Orangecurry on Friday 14th October 11:43
Gassing Station | Porsche Classics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff