911 (964) Potential Purchase - What to look for??

[andyman_2006]

I'm considering the possibility of 911 (964) ownership, and wondered what i should be looking out for when test driving, inspecting these cars.

I'm pretty familiar with BMW M cars, classics like my E-Type, and have a 981 Boxster, but is there anything (like major know issues) the current owners would advise i watch out for on Air cooled 964 series cars.

I'm hoping for a Manual, Targa, Carrera 4.

Any advice much appreciated..

Andy

[Wozy68]

andyman_2006 said:

I'm looking at the possibility of 911 (964) ownership, and wondered what i should be looking out for when test driving, inspecting these cars.

I'm pretty familiar with BMW M cars, classics like my E-Type, and have a 981 Boxster, but is there anything (like major know issues) the current owners would advise i watch out for on Air cooled 964 series cars.

Any advice much appreciated..

Andy

Rot rot and more rot. Not as bad as earlier cars in many ways, but front wheels off, rear arch liners off, carefully inspect bulkhead, push hard against the bulkhead and see if there is any give. This is the hidden area of rot on a 964 and few realise it.
Below the headlamps check for rust bubbles, open the doors and check btm of the B pillars for rust bubbles ....
Check engine for major leaks and generally the back end underneath for oversteer ditch activity.
Pull front carpet and check for crash damage here and around the battery box.

Dont worry (if fitted) the air con doesnt work, they generally dont and could cost over 1K to fix anyways.

If you wanna know if its clocked, a good indication is by runing your hand around the speedo housing. To remove it you have to clasp the housing and pull. This housing is quite soft so quite often when the speedo has been pulled out, it gets slightly damaged and can be felt if not seen.

If history is your thing, check the service book print date is before the registration date, and make sure the sticker on the underside of the bonnet matches the sticker at the begining of the service book.

Many many 964s were unloved for many years, and values were in the pits because of it. So do tread carefully as at one point a lot were not looked after for a large part of their lives, Targas especially so I'm afraid.



HTH

[Porsche911R]

andyman_2006 said:

I'm considering the possibility of 911 (964) ownership, and wondered what i should be looking out for when test driving, inspecting these cars.

I'm pretty familiar with BMW M cars, classics like my E-Type, and have a 981 Boxster, but is there anything (like major know issues) the current owners would advise i watch out for on Air cooled 964 series cars.

I'm hoping for a Manual, Targa, Carrera 4.

Any advice much appreciated..

Andy

as above rot, with added rot.

the cars are old, most have had brush over paint(ie on the cheap) and top ends done, but now a load look tired, and at £50k seem bad value if you need to spend £50k on it !

I would love one but not at todays money with the money it might take to do a bare metal rebuild.

[WallyCarrera]

I can only echo the above comments re rust, based on my 8 years of ownership. I chased rot from one end of the car to the other, including: rear wings (around arches and where they meet rear lights), inner rear wings (inside engine bay), front wings (where they meet bumper and around lights), scuttle panel, windscreen surround, bottom of b-pillars / sills, floor around jacking points, rear bumper mounting brackets.

In all cases either new panels/parts or metal fabrication and welding was required. Many thousands spent on bodywork alone.

I loved that car, wanted it to be a keeper, but couldn't use it in the wet for fear of yet more rust developing. Cars are for driving and life is short, so moved it on.

That all sounds a bit negative, but I would still want to have owned one. Good luck.

[r4_rick]

to echo others comments, rust is the issue. if it has not been done properly, you could be looking at repairs to the boot floor, the rear bumper supports, scuttle, and windscreen surround, kidney bowls, wings, doors !!! easily £10k probably more. Then there is the engine, again a top end rebuild if it is at around 100k miles will benefit the car greatly, again £10k there by the time all the other bits like tin wear have bone done. People are saying that 964s for £40-£50k are starting to look too expensive, but if you buy one that is already largely sorted, my guess is it would be cheaper than buying a £20k project car. Also 10 years ago there was quite a lot to choose from, now I think you are best buying a good one of any spec, rather than chasing a particular car. Personally I think they are going to carry on upwards in value, maybe not as steep as they have done over last 5 years. Good luck, I hope you find a nice car.

[boxsey]

To add a bit of love to this negative thread they can be absolute fabulous cars. Rust is certainly an issue but there are lot of owners out there that bought their 964s when they weren't silly prices and will have lavished love and money on them. I certainly did my bit over the 9 years that I owned mine. The maintenance costs were large but were easy to stomach because of being spread over a long period of time (body work, full engine rebuild and too many other things to mention). However, I bought it when they were going for peanuts. The problem now is that when you are spending £40K+ that you need find one that an owner has already spent big bucks on.

[andyman_2006]

Hi All,

Many thanks for the feedback, and the pointers...

Well i wish i'd not asked now...to be honest had little idea these were that bad on Rot - this info is very much of value to me now i know!

Surely they cant be as bad as a 70's Jaguar!

Maybe i should re-check my 'want' list and turn my attention to another Marque...

The car i was considering viewing at the weekend was £39999. A 1990 G plate, 78K miles. Carrera 4 Targa. 5 owners, lots of history etc.

Still think i'll go look, but bit nervous now about the Rust comments...and the potential engine re-builds needed at 100K.

Must say that i really cant justify £40K and then having to rebuild the motor, and do the bodywork....would not make it worth the money.

Again thanks for the pointers, very much appreciated.

Andy

[g7jhp]

The 964 is a great looking car, but the asking prices for shabby cars which need work are hard to justify compared with alternative Porsche which are dynamically better, can be used year round without rusting and needing a large pile of cash to keep them running.

Nice if you picked one up when they were under £20k, but £40k+ for 100k mile + with refresh coming is hard to justify.

All IMO.

[ras62]

The 964 is certainly not unique where rust is concerned, all the old Porsche models suffer, the 964 is actually much better than the previous generation 911's in this regard! As with the purchase of any old car a thourough inspection should highlight any pitfalls. Buying without an inspection is a fools errand. Get a good one and they are up there as one of the most rewarding 911's ever built.
BTW Kidney bowls never rust on the 964. They dont have them!

[Solarized]

Maybe you could consider a 993 instead.
Nowhere near the same rust or engine issues.
Sllightly softer looking front wings. Much nicer arse. Overall a very pretty and reliable aircooled 911
Buy a 100k miler that's had money spent on suspension etc and you'll not look back.

[tdiquattro]

I think the big question is are you going to get stuck in and work on it yourself? If not then the Labour charges can be large. But if you do much of it yourself you can complete fixes and refreshes for reasonable money.

Yes it will need welding and painting if not done already but I don't agree with the mileage related engine work. Not the case, they are very strong, fix the leaks or slow them down and drive it.

Best car in the world. (Has to be the Targa as well obviously)

[g7jhp]

Solarized said:

Maybe you could consider a 993 instead.
Nowhere near the same rust or engine issues.
Sllightly softer looking front wings. Much nicer arse. Overall a very pretty and reliable aircooled 911
Buy a 100k miler that's had money spent on suspension etc and you'll not look back.

Or a manual 996/997 C2 coupe.

Even less rust issues, starting to get retro and dynamically better than earlier cars and won't break the bank.
Refreshing an engine is easier than chasing rust out of an old 911 and probably cheaper too!

[Solarized]

g7jhp said:

Or a manual 996/997 C2 coupe.

Even less rust issues, starting to get retro and dynamically better than earlier cars and won't break the bank.
Refreshing an engine is easier than chasing rust out of an old 911 and probably cheaper too!

Good call.
Less rust sure but other 'potential issues' which could be safeguarded against of course.
Depends on whether or not OP wants the aircooled experience.

[Slippydiff]

Solarized said:

Maybe you could consider a 993 instead.
Nowhere near the same rust or engine issues.
Sllightly softer looking front wings. Much nicer arse. Overall a very pretty and reliable aircooled 911
Buy a 100k miler that's had money spent on suspension etc and you'll not look back.

Engines not the paragons of reliability many would have you believe. Easier and cheaper to maintain, granted, but more oiltight or less likely to wear their top end, urban myth.

[Solarized]

[quote=Slippydiff]

Engines not the paragons of reliability many would have you believe. Easier and cheaper to maintain, granted, but more oiltight or less likely to wear their top end, urban myth.
[/quote

Agree on the oil tightness bit. Cam covers and chain covers are a known area. 993 engines however very rarely need a rebuild whereas most post 100K 964s or 3.2s etc likely will do.

[NAS90]

What an incredible amount of negativity!

For me the 964 was the best of the classic shape 911s, the 993 is indeed beautiful in its own way and is a little more refined in engineering terms but for me the 964 has the correct balance of classic silhouette and creature comforts. The RHD driving position is compromised and for many the LHD is more desirable, the Targa is often viewed by new buyers as the best compromise between coupe and cabriolet, which isn't always true in reality as you have the additional weight of a cabriolet without either the full open air experience and without the chassis stiffness of a coupe. So there is an argument to say instead of having the best of both worlds with a Targa, you actually have the drawbacks of both Cabrio and Coupe without the advantages; on the positive, the Targa is less desirable amongst many buyers than the coupe and is often a good bit cheaper because of it. The wide body cars are arguably the most beautiful of the lot, either in cabrio or coupe form they look fantastic and are well worth seeking out, all be at they come at premium money.

Like any 20+ year old classic rust can be an issue, but in my experience it is nowhere near as much of an issue as the above posts make out; badly repaired accident damage and unattended to paintwork damage lead to rust but straight cars that have been looked after don't suffer significantly more than any other comparable car of their era. Engines can be expensive to rebuild but if they are correctly maintained and used regularly they can do 200,000+ kms between rebuilds, they don't like to be parked for months at a time as the seals/ gaskets go dry and leak oil prematurely; in my experience the ones that are used regularly are less likely to leak significantly than the ones used little. Don't worry about oil sweat on the engines, most do sweat oil to some extent especially from tappet and timing covers and it isn't an issue but if it is dripping on the garage floor that is an issue that needs addressing.

When you are looking at any potential purchase it should feel like a car that someone loved with the body looking like it was polished regularly, the interior should be complete with no holes in the leather or switches/ trim missing or broken; I find cars that someone took the time to look after ascetically are often looked after as well mechanically. There is always a focus on full service history from new with these cars, but in reality if it has a load of stamps in the service book for the first 10 years it doesn't tell you much about it right now, so i'd be far more interested in how it's been maintained over the last few years with some receipts and documentation on what was done rather than just a stamped service book. A good 964 drives like a go-kart, it feels precise in the steering, pulls well in every gear and is surprisingly rapid for the (only) 250bhp, brakes should feel strong and pull it up square with no drama. Carrera 2s are the one people are going mad for, but I find a well set up Carrera 4 drives just as well if not better on normal roads rather than a track.

If the car you are looking at meets all of the above you probably have a good prospect, that now needs to have a specialist look it over during a pre-purchase inspection.

Don't be put off by the negativity above, I've had several 964s over the past decade, used many as daily drivers and they remain one of my favourite Porsches. Buy a good one, use it often and it'll be a very rewarding purchase that will probably be worth more in 5 years than you will have spent to buy it and maintain it so it'll be a rewarding toy and cost you nothing to own....

[ras62]

Solarized said:

Slippydiff said:

Engines not the paragons of reliability many would have you believe. Easier and cheaper to maintain, granted, but more oiltight or less likely to wear their top end, urban myth.
[/quote

Agree on the oil tightness bit. Cam covers and chain covers are a known area. 993 engines however very rarely need a rebuild whereas most post 100K 964s or 3.2s etc likely will do.

Incorrect, and as Slippy says its a myth. 993 having hydraulic valves simply disguise top end ware better but the exhaust valve guides will be toast just like the 964. The older they get the more they will leak and the more owners will choose to rebuild.
Rust is still an issue in most of the same places and the rear suspension is very expensive to replace in comparison to the 964.

[Wozy68]

ras62 said:

Solarized said:

Slippydiff said:

Engines not the paragons of reliability many would have you believe. Easier and cheaper to maintain, granted, but more oiltight or less likely to wear their top end, urban myth.
[/quote

Agree on the oil tightness bit. Cam covers and chain covers are a known area. 993 engines however very rarely need a rebuild whereas most post 100K 964s or 3.2s etc likely will do.

Incorrect, and as Slippy says its a myth. 993 having hydraulic valves simply disguise top end ware better but the exhaust valve guides will be toast just like the 964. The older they get the more they will leak and the more owners will choose to rebuild.
Rust is still an issue in most of the same places and the rear suspension is very expensive to replace in comparison to the 964.

I'm confused by this. Back in the day 964s were well talked about requiring rebuilds at around 100k and leaking like a sieve at basically any mileage. My C2 had covered only 50k miles and well remember the sweet smell of hot oil in the cabin from oil dripping onto the heat exchangers. They were a cheap 911 for a reason once (thankfully back then for me) and engine issues was a large part of it. I've personally never heard of a 993 need a rebuild at 100k miles.

Yes a 993 leaks but mainly from the lower cam covers which are a cheap DIY remedy. You also hear of many a 150-250k mileage 993s still running strong without a rebuild. I read an article somewhere not long back where an un-rebuilt 160k mile 993 registered a mere few HP drop in power compared to factory new specs.
Lastly my (it seems) running perfectly un rebuilt 138k mile 993 uses around 1 litre of oil every 3000 miles and is even still on her orginal clutch, No emission problems, no smoke, still seems to have plenty of power, no major oil leaks or faulty DMF here.

[Slippydiff]

ras62 said:

Incorrect, and as Slippy says its a myth. 993 having hydraulic valves simply disguise top end ware better but the exhaust valve guides will be toast just like the 964. The older they get the more they will leak and the more owners will choose to rebuild.
Rust is still an issue in most of the same places and the rear suspension is very expensive to replace in comparison to the 964.

Evening ras Did you get my PM ? Seems I missed you at Oulton

Back on topic. My 993 RS engine required re-sealing at 60k miles, cylinder base oil leaks, cylinder head to barrel joints leaks, crankcase through bolt seal leaks, valve guides and stems worn.

Gave me an excuse to make it look pretty again mind

[Slippydiff]

Wozy68 said:

I'm confused by this. Back in the day 964s were well talked about requiring rebuilds at around 100k and leaking like a sieve at basically any mileage. My C2 had covered only 50k miles and well remember the sweet smell of hot oil in the cabin from oil dripping onto the heat exchangers. They were a cheap 911 for a reason once (thankfully back then for me) and engine issues was a large part of it. I've personally never heard of a 993 need a rebuild at 100k miles.

Yes a 993 leaks but mainly from the lower cam covers which are a cheap DIY remedy. You also hear of many a 150-250k mileage 993s still running strong without a rebuild. I read an article somewhere not long back where an un-rebuilt 160k mile 993 registered a mere few HP drop in power compared to factory new specs.
Lastly my (it seems) running perfectly un rebuilt 138k mile 993 uses around 1 litre of oil every 3000 miles and is even still on her orginal clutch, No emission problems, no smoke, still seems to have plenty of power, no major oil leaks or faulty DMF here.

The one 964 C2 I bought (all the rest were RS's) had leak down figures on 2 cylinders that were down 12 & 15% respectively. It didn't leak oil and pulled like a train. Steve Bull told me it was lovely example and to buy it and enjoy it.
964's have the issue with ceramic exhaust port liners (not present on the 993 engine) that can cause issues, but on the whole you'll be rebuilding a 964 engine because it's doing an impression of the Torrey canyon, smoking like bh, has lost so much compression is goes like a stunned slug (the latter rare in my experience) or has numerous sheared head studs.
The 993 had improved crankcase through bolt seals, decent head gaskets (as did the 964 engines after they abandoned the gasketless arrangement) and diffrent cylinder base O rings too IIRC.