458 values now that the 488GTB is here - only way is down!?
Discussion
TP321 said:
GRBF430F1 said:
Your argument loses ALL credibility when you suggest the 650S is a compromise and worse than a 12C.
As regards looks and prestige the 650S also mullers the 458 IMHO. Far better looks and not as common as mcuk
The DESIGN of the 650S is the compromise - not the car.As regards looks and prestige the 650S also mullers the 458 IMHO. Far better looks and not as common as mcuk
McLaren does not have the prestige of Ferrari. Only F1 fans know what a McLaren is (same problem Lotus has). Ferrari is an iconic brand - like Apple. You might design a better smartphone, but you cant touch it for desirability or residuals. Proof of the pudding:
Show me a RHD 2011 458, with 12k miles that is as cheap as this: http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/m...
Edited by TP321 on Friday 6th February 19:37
baypond said:
TP321 said:
GRBF430F1 said:
Your argument loses ALL credibility when you suggest the 650S is a compromise and worse than a 12C.
As regards looks and prestige the 650S also mullers the 458 IMHO. Far better looks and not as common as mcuk
The DESIGN of the 650S is the compromise - not the car.As regards looks and prestige the 650S also mullers the 458 IMHO. Far better looks and not as common as mcuk
McLaren does not have the prestige of Ferrari. Only F1 fans know what a McLaren is (same problem Lotus has). Ferrari is an iconic brand - like Apple. You might design a better smartphone, but you cant touch it for desirability or residuals. Proof of the pudding:
Show me a RHD 2011 458, with 12k miles that is as cheap as this: http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/m...
Edited by TP321 on Friday 6th February 19:37
Ignore TP321, he has a pathological hatred of Mclaren and takes every opportunity to slag them off, it's very predictable and infantile.
Frankly, who the f
k cares about brand prestige? Reading this crap just makes me cringe. Buy the best car out there, the one you enjoy the most. Never buy on badge, it's a fking betrayal of all the hard work you've put in to afford the bloody thing in the first place. You wouldn't preference any supplier to your business solely on them being fashionable.I've owned Ferrari, Lambo and Mclaren and will probably own all of them again if I live long enough. But I will base my purchasing decision on how alive the car makes me feel, not on how many people on the internet "like" the brand.
The 650S is about as good a car as money can buy right now, enjoy your time with it.
br d said:
baypond said:
TP321 said:
GRBF430F1 said:
Your argument loses ALL credibility when you suggest the 650S is a compromise and worse than a 12C.
As regards looks and prestige the 650S also mullers the 458 IMHO. Far better looks and not as common as mcuk
The DESIGN of the 650S is the compromise - not the car.As regards looks and prestige the 650S also mullers the 458 IMHO. Far better looks and not as common as mcuk
McLaren does not have the prestige of Ferrari. Only F1 fans know what a McLaren is (same problem Lotus has). Ferrari is an iconic brand - like Apple. You might design a better smartphone, but you cant touch it for desirability or residuals. Proof of the pudding:
Show me a RHD 2011 458, with 12k miles that is as cheap as this: http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/m...
Edited by TP321 on Friday 6th February 19:37
Ignore TP321, he has a pathological hatred of Mclaren and takes every opportunity to slag them off, it's very predictable and infantile.
Frankly, who the f
k cares about brand prestige? Reading this crap just makes me cringe. Buy the best car out there, the one you enjoy the most. Never buy on badge, it's a fking betrayal of all the hard work you've put in to afford the bloody thing in the first place. You wouldn't preference any supplier to your business solely on them being fashionable.I've owned Ferrari, Lambo and Mclaren and will probably own all of them again if I live long enough. But I will base my purchasing decision on how alive the car makes me feel, not on how many people on the internet "like" the brand.
The 650S is about as good a car as money can buy right now, enjoy your time with it.
br d said:
I shouldn't bite on this but I've had a few beers.
Ignore TP321, he has a pathological hatred of Mclaren and takes every opportunity to slag them off, it's very predictable and infantile.
Frankly, who the fk cares about brand prestige? Reading this crap just makes me cringe. Buy the best car out there, the one you enjoy the most. Never buy on badge, it's a fking betrayal of all the hard work you've put in to afford the bloody thing in the first place. You wouldn't preference any supplier to your business solely on them being fashionable.
I've owned Ferrari, Lambo and Mclaren and will probably own all of them again if I live long enough. But I will base my purchasing decision on how alive the car makes me feel, not on how many people on the internet "like" the brand.
The 650S is about as good a car as money can buy right now, enjoy your time with it.
Hi br d, I'm afraid to say I think you are way off on this one Ignore TP321, he has a pathological hatred of Mclaren and takes every opportunity to slag them off, it's very predictable and infantile.
Frankly, who the f
k cares about brand prestige? Reading this crap just makes me cringe. Buy the best car out there, the one you enjoy the most. Never buy on badge, it's a fking betrayal of all the hard work you've put in to afford the bloody thing in the first place. You wouldn't preference any supplier to your business solely on them being fashionable.I've owned Ferrari, Lambo and Mclaren and will probably own all of them again if I live long enough. But I will base my purchasing decision on how alive the car makes me feel, not on how many people on the internet "like" the brand.
The 650S is about as good a car as money can buy right now, enjoy your time with it.
Branding is at the very core of a successful free market, the same free market mechanism that allows the production of beautiful vehicles such as the one you enjoy! Also the same free market which allows people to freely go and spend their money however they like - and not how you or I think they should, such prescribed purchasing decisions would in fact be the true betrayal of spending money earned in a free market!
It is a natural human trait to identify with certain brands - their values, reputation, public image, etc. Would you honestly have bought your McLaren if it was the exact same car, but made by Peugeot or Skoda? What about if I had developed it myself and branded it as a Seal 1000? Have you honestly never purchased things because of the brand influencing you - are all your groceries generic store brands? Are you sure Coke tastes better than Tesco Cola - if not then surely you are purchasing a branded product because of the brand and perceived brand prestige / values. If you genuinely do not care about brand whatsoever then you are truly in the extreme minority of the global population.
Identifying with a brand and wanting to purchase that brand's products is what most people do, and it is all part of the consumer experience in a free market economy where we have the ability to choose what we spend our money on based on our own personal evaluations. If someone chooses to buy a Ferrari 458 over a McLaren 650s because he thinks it will sound better to say to his colleagues that he has a Ferrari than to say he has a McLaren then so what? Maybe you don't like that and think it's a stupid reason (fair enough!), but ultimately if he gets a kick out of it & that's what he really wants then it's no less stupid than any other reasoning for buying a pure luxury product! The purchaser needs to go out there and get the best return for himself from his purchase based on what matters to him, for many people that will include the brand to some extent even if it is only a small influencer in making their decision.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that brand prestige is very alive, very real and in my opinion an absolutely valid factor to consider as part of making your car purchase decision.
I think most people will associate Mclaren just as prestigious as Ferrari and Lamborghini. In fact most people will probably associate Mclaren as more prestigious than Porsche.
As others here have already mentioned, when it comes to Ferrari, Lambo and Mclaren buy the best car of the three as all badges will have the same prestige (if that is important to people).
IMO the best available to date of the three is the Speciale and therefore most likely the 488 too. However, the 675LT looks very interesting but too expensive.
My previously favourite car the Performante has been replaced by the ever so ugly Huracan and with the Aventador being too big to be sensible, Lamborghini for the next generation are out of the supercar race. (Lamborghini are my overall favourite brand)
As others here have already mentioned, when it comes to Ferrari, Lambo and Mclaren buy the best car of the three as all badges will have the same prestige (if that is important to people).
IMO the best available to date of the three is the Speciale and therefore most likely the 488 too. However, the 675LT looks very interesting but too expensive.
My previously favourite car the Performante has been replaced by the ever so ugly Huracan and with the Aventador being too big to be sensible, Lamborghini for the next generation are out of the supercar race. (Lamborghini are my overall favourite brand)
Edited by Creditcrunch on Monday 15th June 17:30
What are people's thoughts on imminent 458 depreciation? Sorry, it's a "values" post.
I know it's a can of worms and owners vs watchers is likely to result in polarised agenda based views, but I keep hearing conflicting info...
On the one hand you have people saying that early cars are already near the bottom of the curve, main dealers seem to still be listing for £140k+, etc. People say "the last of the NA" is a strong selling point but is it really enough to overcome the latest and greatest factor?
On the other hand the 488 is coming, it replaces the 458 and one would presume will follow the same depreciation curve, which will surely compress the 458 market with it?
Am really keen to get into a 458 sooner rather than later, but don't want to lose my shirt - relatively speaking of course. I likely won't be owning for long enough to see a potential uptick ala current 360 & F430 markets. Having very limited exposure to the market I don't know what my expectations should be based on historical data.
I know there's no definitive answer, but would really like input if anyone is happy to provide it. Currently fighting head (short/mid term depreciation could be savage, wait man wait!) and heart (you only live once, can't take it with you, the experience is worth the monetary loss)...
I know it's a can of worms and owners vs watchers is likely to result in polarised agenda based views, but I keep hearing conflicting info...
On the one hand you have people saying that early cars are already near the bottom of the curve, main dealers seem to still be listing for £140k+, etc. People say "the last of the NA" is a strong selling point but is it really enough to overcome the latest and greatest factor?
On the other hand the 488 is coming, it replaces the 458 and one would presume will follow the same depreciation curve, which will surely compress the 458 market with it?
Am really keen to get into a 458 sooner rather than later, but don't want to lose my shirt - relatively speaking of course. I likely won't be owning for long enough to see a potential uptick ala current 360 & F430 markets. Having very limited exposure to the market I don't know what my expectations should be based on historical data.
I know there's no definitive answer, but would really like input if anyone is happy to provide it. Currently fighting head (short/mid term depreciation could be savage, wait man wait!) and heart (you only live once, can't take it with you, the experience is worth the monetary loss)...
Durzel said:
What are people's thoughts on imminent 458 depreciation? Sorry, it's a "values" post.
I know it's a can of worms and owners vs watchers is likely to result in polarised agenda based views, but I keep hearing conflicting info...
On the one hand you have people saying that early cars are already near the bottom of the curve, main dealers seem to still be listing for £140k+, etc. People say "the last of the NA" is a strong selling point but is it really enough to overcome the latest and greatest factor?
On the other hand the 488 is coming, it replaces the 458 and one would presume will follow the same depreciation curve, which will surely compress the 458 market with it?
Am really keen to get into a 458 sooner rather than later, but don't want to lose my shirt - relatively speaking of course. I likely won't be owning for long enough to see a potential uptick ala current 360 & F430 markets. Having very limited exposure to the market I don't know what my expectations should be based on historical data.
I know there's no definitive answer, but would really like input if anyone is happy to provide it. Currently fighting head (short/mid term depreciation could be savage, wait man wait!) and heart (you only live once, can't take it with you, the experience is worth the monetary loss)...
The good - (or bad) thing with the 488 is, that the UK dealer RHD cars won't be arriving until late 2015, and customer cars Spring 16. Ferrari will be pegging back supply and keep the lead times & availability tight to protect values. The last of the NA Ferrari's will always be sought after - well spec'd cars in the dealers don't seem to hang around for long and despite the knowledge of the new model, there doesn't appear to be massive dip in prices. I know it's a can of worms and owners vs watchers is likely to result in polarised agenda based views, but I keep hearing conflicting info...
On the one hand you have people saying that early cars are already near the bottom of the curve, main dealers seem to still be listing for £140k+, etc. People say "the last of the NA" is a strong selling point but is it really enough to overcome the latest and greatest factor?
On the other hand the 488 is coming, it replaces the 458 and one would presume will follow the same depreciation curve, which will surely compress the 458 market with it?
Am really keen to get into a 458 sooner rather than later, but don't want to lose my shirt - relatively speaking of course. I likely won't be owning for long enough to see a potential uptick ala current 360 & F430 markets. Having very limited exposure to the market I don't know what my expectations should be based on historical data.
I know there's no definitive answer, but would really like input if anyone is happy to provide it. Currently fighting head (short/mid term depreciation could be savage, wait man wait!) and heart (you only live once, can't take it with you, the experience is worth the monetary loss)...
You only live once....GFI
Graham
The problem I have on the 458 pricing side of things is that a 2010 458 which is now a good 5 years old, is still at £140k+, maybe £150k for a decent spec. However, a nicely spec'd 458 from '12 '13 can be had for a relatively modest £20k premium - modest given future value, car half the age, etc.
But a £170k car makes no sense with the brand new 488 list at less than £20k (12%) away! Last of the NAs or not, with such a relatively small price differential I'd rather have the whole experience of buying a brand new Ferrari, having the brand new model, to my spec, etc - than simply buying an 'old' model preowned.
For me the 458s make sense with a 2010 Italia @ £120k or a 2012 Spider @ £140k. Maybe I'm being too aggressive on the spider since the 488 spider has not even been launched, but I really think £120k for a '10 458 is a fair level.
But a £170k car makes no sense with the brand new 488 list at less than £20k (12%) away! Last of the NAs or not, with such a relatively small price differential I'd rather have the whole experience of buying a brand new Ferrari, having the brand new model, to my spec, etc - than simply buying an 'old' model preowned.
For me the 458s make sense with a 2010 Italia @ £120k or a 2012 Spider @ £140k. Maybe I'm being too aggressive on the spider since the 488 spider has not even been launched, but I really think £120k for a '10 458 is a fair level.
Thanks.
I've not seen a £120k Italia anywhere, nor a £140k Spider, if we're talking RHD at least. Main dealers seem to be pegging the prices pretty well, and it seems to be a car that has almost non-existent private market (guess finance is a big issue at this level).
That being said I've seen a couple of £145k 2010 458 Italias that are just hanging around now, so *shrug*.
I get the impression that main dealers at least are very seasoned pros when it comes to market "maintenence", assuming pricing doesn't come from Maranello direct.
I am leaning towards the "it's only money" camp though, I need to stop watching 458 walkabout videos on YouTube.
edit: I somewhat agree with you sealtt except I don't imagine anyone is going to get a base spec 488 for some time with others speccing them to the nines in the meantime, and the argument that "it's only £20k more for the next best thing" applies to a lot of things in life. F430s aren't *that* far off 458 prices at the moment, and are moving quickly.
I've not seen a £120k Italia anywhere, nor a £140k Spider, if we're talking RHD at least. Main dealers seem to be pegging the prices pretty well, and it seems to be a car that has almost non-existent private market (guess finance is a big issue at this level).
That being said I've seen a couple of £145k 2010 458 Italias that are just hanging around now, so *shrug*.
I get the impression that main dealers at least are very seasoned pros when it comes to market "maintenence", assuming pricing doesn't come from Maranello direct.
I am leaning towards the "it's only money" camp though, I need to stop watching 458 walkabout videos on YouTube.
edit: I somewhat agree with you sealtt except I don't imagine anyone is going to get a base spec 488 for some time with others speccing them to the nines in the meantime, and the argument that "it's only £20k more for the next best thing" applies to a lot of things in life. F430s aren't *that* far off 458 prices at the moment, and are moving quickly.
Edited by Durzel on Monday 22 June 23:25
Durzel said:
My post looks stupid out of context now 
Gave it a little context, very funny. That's what I get for trusting my important PH comments to a BT home hub .... !As to the actual discussion. Yes, I think your points are most likely to be how it plays out in real life. Even independent dealers don't seem to get involved much or put much pressure on prices so I don't see that they are likely to drop hugely. A notable price differential does make sense between the 458 and F430, so given where the F430s have risen to, a good £120k 458 doesn't look too likely anytime soon.
I had a look at the 488s on the configurator, surprisingly with only a modest few options it is possible to get it to a nice level. It's a pretty great car even in base spec. Bet a good one which looks the part could easily be done for £200k. Hence why I find it difficult to justify £170k-£180k on a 458 Spider, despite all the obvious points, it's just a mental block!
There is no doubt about it, the 458 is superb, just such a great car. I think you should just make a few low bids and see what you can get! If you have a PX might be worth trying to get them to bid high on that. That way you should get a fairly decent deal, won't lose your shirt anyway. Just look where the older gen models are - 360, 430 - and the 458 is in a different league to those cars performance and desirability, so it should be a good premium always.
Edited by sealtt on Tuesday 23 June 10:31
Cheers, reassuring words.
It doesn't help that I have no practical experience of the market, so haven't been through the loop of buying for X and selling for Y. In that respect I don't really have a bead on where I should pitch my expectations, and I don't want to waste too much time worrying over losses that are "par for the course" - e.g. buying from a main dealer for X, immediately buy back would be X-£15k or something.
I've probably been a bit obsessive for too long now over getting a good price above all else, and missed out on at least a couple of lovely 430 Spiders as a consequence, hence why I'm leaning towards thinking "what will be, will be" regards however much I lose in the spread on a 458.
In summary - I'm probably talking far too much about it when I could just be JFDI'ing it
It doesn't help that I have no practical experience of the market, so haven't been through the loop of buying for X and selling for Y. In that respect I don't really have a bead on where I should pitch my expectations, and I don't want to waste too much time worrying over losses that are "par for the course" - e.g. buying from a main dealer for X, immediately buy back would be X-£15k or something.
I've probably been a bit obsessive for too long now over getting a good price above all else, and missed out on at least a couple of lovely 430 Spiders as a consequence, hence why I'm leaning towards thinking "what will be, will be" regards however much I lose in the spread on a 458.
In summary - I'm probably talking far too much about it when I could just be JFDI'ing it
Edited by Durzel on Tuesday 23 June 10:52
The old Ferris Bueller quote comes to mind Mr D, Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around for a while, you could miss it.
Also, perhaps look at it in a different way, ALL cars depreciate V8 Ferraris slower than most. Regarding your expected 'lack off' difference in pricing most 488's in the first year will be very highly specced my guess would be easy £200K probably £220K Spiders when they arrive will probably run upto £250K or more fully specced, so dont worry too much about your shirt just go buy one, the sun is coming out in July!!
IMHO of course.
Also, perhaps look at it in a different way, ALL cars depreciate V8 Ferraris slower than most. Regarding your expected 'lack off' difference in pricing most 488's in the first year will be very highly specced my guess would be easy £200K probably £220K Spiders when they arrive will probably run upto £250K or more fully specced, so dont worry too much about your shirt just go buy one, the sun is coming out in July!!
IMHO of course.Gassing Station | Ferrari V8 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff