Next Toy 458 Way To Go ?
Discussion
icebite78 said:
Slarti430 do you really think the 12c is on par with the 458? Because if you do the world's motoring journalists all disagree with you.
It's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other when comparing the two. They're actually very different cars. I don't listen to journos that much. They're like film critics, lots of opinion, looking to get a rise out of their audience and also - in many cases - unable to afford and run the supercars they review thus never really get a chance to get under the skin of the motors. I'd prefer to form my own opinion having lived with the car, or through close friends / family who allow me to get close to theirs. It's also worth adding that for every crap review, I can easily point you to a bunch of blow out fantastic reviews (look up the chris Harris and xcar reviews of the 12c for example). Also note that those negative review were of the original 2011 car - a lot changed in a year. I could easily have bought a 458, but frankly it was too obvious and as I started to research and test drive friends cars, I was pretty much decided. To me the 12c isn't just on par with a 458, it's better, but that's just my opinion and I put my money on it. icebite78 said:
Slarti430 do you really think the 12c is on par with the 458? Because if you do the world's motoring journalists all disagree with you.
. With the exception of the sound, the 12C is better than a 458 in every conceivable way.
The early journo reviews were of the very first MP4 12C cars back in 2011 which following feedback McLaren fixed with 3 FOC upgrades.
Yes it was a mistake to bring the car to market like that in the first place but I'm guessing sales & Marketing department got the upper hand over the R & D and engineering department and pressure to get the car out there and sold led to a bad mistake.
However having made that error McLaren was quick to respond and correct matters.
A very unfortunate and costly mistake and one that great reviews of the subsequent 12C could not entirely save the reputation of 12C at the time.
People have forgotten the early journo reviews now and having driven the upgraded cars are forming their own opinions are voting with their cash.
Thankfully McLaren hit the nail on the head first time with the massively better 650S which now even the 488 will struggle to compete with despite being 2 years newer. As Steve Sutcliffe said " the 650S chews up and spits out a 458"
This is a 2011 review by Chris Harris (one of the few journos I respect)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mKB-8WUB5k
This is a 2012 review
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc_y9jVkcCk
But as I alluded to above, drive them - it's the only real way of knowing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mKB-8WUB5k
This is a 2012 review
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc_y9jVkcCk
But as I alluded to above, drive them - it's the only real way of knowing.
RamboLambo said:
With the exception of the sound, the 12C is better than a 458 in every conceivable way.
People should drive and make up their own mind but a quick list comes to mind (some subjective):
Looks
Carbon brake operation
DCT operation (this might of improved with software updates)
Throttle response
Edited by Russell996 on Monday 15th February 12:04
I disgaree with Rambo. I have the sport exhaust and the sounds is just fabulous. Very different to the 458 but spine tingling nevertheless.
Not sure about brake operation comment - mine manages to stops when I put the brakes on.
Looks - subjective and there are people that will prefer one over the other. 458 is unquestionably a pretty car, I love the way the 458 looks. 12C has a different look, less pretty more brutish with the overall width, very low stance, the huge side intakes and the dyhedral doors. I wouldn't say no to a 458 for one second, unless the alternative was a Mac.
Not sure about brake operation comment - mine manages to stops when I put the brakes on.
Looks - subjective and there are people that will prefer one over the other. 458 is unquestionably a pretty car, I love the way the 458 looks. 12C has a different look, less pretty more brutish with the overall width, very low stance, the huge side intakes and the dyhedral doors. I wouldn't say no to a 458 for one second, unless the alternative was a Mac.
I love them both but they are quite different cars. The McLaren has a carbon tub which makes quite a unique contribution to the feel and poise of the car and the difference this makes cannot be underestimated, prior to the MP4 you would have to spend nearly half a mil at least to get a car with similar construction.
Personally I like the 458 interior more (it really shows how dated the 430 is now) and of course the sound, but the McLaren in pure performance terms feels to me like it has quite an advantage. But how often do we drive at 10/10ths on the public road, I certainly don't and for feel the 458 is exceptional. It's only when you press on or use the car on a trackday it really becomes apparent. I spent some time with the McLaren at Silverstone and was very impressed by it.
Another big difference is that McLarens owners appear not to be mileage obsessed and the cars are very usable in everyday situations. Whether this is because Ferraris inevitably depreciate heavily and can occasionally develop expensive faults when mileages creep up or simply the owners being reluctant to drive them, I know a few guys who are into the 30k mile range on their McLarens with no issues whatsoever.
In years to come it will be interesting to see if McLarens doing normal mileages that would be considered high for Ferraris will impact their values significantly or not. I think maybe not if people realise they are usable and easily capable of miles and everyday use.
Personally I like the 458 interior more (it really shows how dated the 430 is now) and of course the sound, but the McLaren in pure performance terms feels to me like it has quite an advantage. But how often do we drive at 10/10ths on the public road, I certainly don't and for feel the 458 is exceptional. It's only when you press on or use the car on a trackday it really becomes apparent. I spent some time with the McLaren at Silverstone and was very impressed by it.
Another big difference is that McLarens owners appear not to be mileage obsessed and the cars are very usable in everyday situations. Whether this is because Ferraris inevitably depreciate heavily and can occasionally develop expensive faults when mileages creep up or simply the owners being reluctant to drive them, I know a few guys who are into the 30k mile range on their McLarens with no issues whatsoever.
In years to come it will be interesting to see if McLarens doing normal mileages that would be considered high for Ferraris will impact their values significantly or not. I think maybe not if people realise they are usable and easily capable of miles and everyday use.
SlartiF430 said:
I disgaree with Rambo. I have the sport exhaust and the sounds is just fabulous. Very different to the 458 but spine tingling nevertheless.
Not sure about brake operation comment - mine manages to stops when I put the brakes on.
Looks - subjective and there are people that will prefer one over the other. 458 is unquestionably a pretty car, I love the way the 458 looks. 12C has a different look, less pretty more brutish with the overall width, very low stance, the huge side intakes and the dyhedral doors. I wouldn't say no to a 458 for one second, unless the alternative was a Mac.
Brake comment is referring to the problems McLaren had with getting the modulation of their carbon's correct - carbons were optional on the 12C and to my understanding the fix was introduced with the 650s - I'm sure they stop the car with ease.Not sure about brake operation comment - mine manages to stops when I put the brakes on.
Looks - subjective and there are people that will prefer one over the other. 458 is unquestionably a pretty car, I love the way the 458 looks. 12C has a different look, less pretty more brutish with the overall width, very low stance, the huge side intakes and the dyhedral doors. I wouldn't say no to a 458 for one second, unless the alternative was a Mac.
Russell996 said:
Brake comment is referring to the problems McLaren had with getting the modulation of their carbon's correct - carbons were optional on the 12C and to my understanding the fix was introduced with the 650s - I'm sure they stop the car with ease.
Aha. Sorry, gotcha. Mine has steels. Don't like CCM brakes and stay away from them - expensive to buy, expensive to replace if you score or otherwise damage them and only really useful for long track runs (I do track runs but never for long enough to warrant CCMs). My brother and neighbour both have 458s, fantastic car - my comments above read like I'm saying otherwise. I guess what I'm trying to say is that i get slightly annoyed by the journo following masses that form opinions off the back of youtube videos and magazine articles without every having any real first hand experience themselves. Reminds me of my uncle the armchair general, left to him, every incursion into the middle east would have ended quickly and successfully.
Ok might aswell chime in here so I don't get labelled an armchair journalist.
I have a 458 italia and have driven a 12c and it bored me the same way my previous nissan gtr bored me..quick but that was it.
Granted the 12c sounds better than a gtr but to me very comparable to one.
Not saying it's a bad car in no way but the 458 even at 30mph feels special.
Just because a 12c has a carbon tub it doesn't make it comparable to a 458 but all this is just my opinion
Enjoy your 12c and to the original poster 458 is definitely the way to go the buzz is truly brilliant
I have a 458 italia and have driven a 12c and it bored me the same way my previous nissan gtr bored me..quick but that was it.
Granted the 12c sounds better than a gtr but to me very comparable to one.
Not saying it's a bad car in no way but the 458 even at 30mph feels special.
Just because a 12c has a carbon tub it doesn't make it comparable to a 458 but all this is just my opinion
Enjoy your 12c and to the original poster 458 is definitely the way to go the buzz is truly brilliant
The whole 12C / 458 debate is a bit like do you prefer chilli or curry? They are both awesome and we should be grateful they both exist and we have a choice.
I went for a 12C, I also drove a 458 before I made my mind up. There is no doubt the 458 is a stunning car and it does sound a little better and has slightly better throttle response. But It doesn't suit what I need it for, day trips with my wife, holidays to the continent and some daily use. The 12C is an animal but if you want it to be it's a very comfortable cruiser that can do 30 mpg. I would also feel slightly worried that the Ferrari might break down, probably an ill founded comment these days but still niggling away in the back of my mind. Also is the 458 at the bottom of its depreciation curve yet? I think (hope) the12C is and that was another deciding factor to minimise financial risk. If the 458 had have been 'that much' better I would have got one despite all the concerns, but it wasn't, it was different but no better or worse.
Also I prefer my cars to look subtle and restrained, I could never have a Lamborghini, the 12C just pips the 458 in looks for me as it does the 650 (using your logo for lights seems very un McLaren, form follows function is the name of their game). Also I very much love my interiors and for me the 12C is a lot nicer place to be than the 458 which is a trifle over the top.
I would have a 458 in a heartbeat if I had 5 other cars, a large garage and it was a summer weekend toy, but I use my McLaren in the rain to visit clients on a Tuesday.
Both are outstanding, there is no wrong choice only personal preference, buy either and enjoy to your hearts content.
I went for a 12C, I also drove a 458 before I made my mind up. There is no doubt the 458 is a stunning car and it does sound a little better and has slightly better throttle response. But It doesn't suit what I need it for, day trips with my wife, holidays to the continent and some daily use. The 12C is an animal but if you want it to be it's a very comfortable cruiser that can do 30 mpg. I would also feel slightly worried that the Ferrari might break down, probably an ill founded comment these days but still niggling away in the back of my mind. Also is the 458 at the bottom of its depreciation curve yet? I think (hope) the12C is and that was another deciding factor to minimise financial risk. If the 458 had have been 'that much' better I would have got one despite all the concerns, but it wasn't, it was different but no better or worse.
Also I prefer my cars to look subtle and restrained, I could never have a Lamborghini, the 12C just pips the 458 in looks for me as it does the 650 (using your logo for lights seems very un McLaren, form follows function is the name of their game). Also I very much love my interiors and for me the 12C is a lot nicer place to be than the 458 which is a trifle over the top.
I would have a 458 in a heartbeat if I had 5 other cars, a large garage and it was a summer weekend toy, but I use my McLaren in the rain to visit clients on a Tuesday.
Both are outstanding, there is no wrong choice only personal preference, buy either and enjoy to your hearts content.
Bispal said:
I would have a 458 in a heartbeat if I had 5 other cars, a large garage and it was a summer weekend toy, but I use my McLaren in the rain to visit clients on a Tuesday.
Both are outstanding, there is no wrong choice only personal preference, buy either and enjoy to your hearts content.
If you worked more than one day a week, you could probably afford both. Both are outstanding, there is no wrong choice only personal preference, buy either and enjoy to your hearts content.
Before I went with my 650 - I drove pretty much everything in the £200k - £350k price bracket. The 458 came bottom - it has the noise, but goes downhill after that, suspension and handling on any kind of undulating British road and you lose all confidence given lack of composure, it is not 'daily usable' and lastly it is the slowest by a mile. I never did get to drive a Speciale but I don't think it would have changed my mind.
For the money the 650S was so many leagues ahead in handling and general road holding, unless you have actually driven a McLaren and experienced how f
king smooth they are over the bumps you won't actually believe it. The turn-in under power when it 'assists' you is bonkers, (only try this on very safe sharp corners - getting these cars 'to the limit' is not possible at speed on public roads!) - and the car is just so damn usable, yes the doors get in the way in parking spaces (not as bad I first feared) - but you can literally use it as a daily drive. And lastly - nothing is as fast in the price bracket, 650S, faster than Huracan, 458 Speciale, and yes even an Aventador. Buy the 458 if you just want the badge, buy the McLaren if you want the best car for the money.
NickOrangeCars said:
Before I went with my 650 - I drove pretty much everything in the £200k - £350k price bracket. The 458 came bottom - it has the noise, but goes downhill after that, suspension and handling on any kind of undulating British road and you lose all confidence given lack of composure, it is not 'daily usable' and lastly it is the slowest by a mile. I never did get to drive a Speciale but I don't think it would have changed my mind.
For the money the 650S was so many leagues ahead in handling and general road holding, unless you have actually driven a McLaren and experienced how fking smooth they are over the bumps you won't actually believe it. The turn-in under power when it 'assists' you is bonkers, (only try this on very safe sharp corners - getting these cars 'to the limit' is not possible at speed on public roads!) - and the car is just so damn usable, yes the doors get in the way in parking spaces (not as bad I first feared) - but you can literally use it as a daily drive. And lastly - nothing is as fast in the price bracket, 650S, faster than Huracan, 458 Speciale, and yes even an Aventador.
Buy the 458 if you just want the badge, buy the McLaren if you want the best car for the money.
Re handling over bumps I watched a you tube review that said the same thing. Just chopped in my 458 Spider, it just didn't do it for me. Im obviously not a Ferrari guy, I had it 2 weeks and sold it. The interior is too complicated and not very user friendly, stupid buttons everywhere. The noise was decent, but hardly got to hear it in London traffic. Sounds like the ride of the McLaren is what I would prefer. And it sounds good too! For the money the 650S was so many leagues ahead in handling and general road holding, unless you have actually driven a McLaren and experienced how f
king smooth they are over the bumps you won't actually believe it. The turn-in under power when it 'assists' you is bonkers, (only try this on very safe sharp corners - getting these cars 'to the limit' is not possible at speed on public roads!) - and the car is just so damn usable, yes the doors get in the way in parking spaces (not as bad I first feared) - but you can literally use it as a daily drive. And lastly - nothing is as fast in the price bracket, 650S, faster than Huracan, 458 Speciale, and yes even an Aventador. Buy the 458 if you just want the badge, buy the McLaren if you want the best car for the money.
NickOrangeCars said:
Before I went with my 650 - I drove pretty much everything in the £200k - £350k price bracket. The 458 came bottom - it has the noise, but goes downhill after that, suspension and handling on any kind of undulating British road and you lose all confidence given lack of composure, it is not 'daily usable' and lastly it is the slowest by a mile. I never did get to drive a Speciale but I don't think it would have changed my mind.
For the money the 650S was so many leagues ahead in handling and general road holding, unless you have actually driven a McLaren and experienced how fking smooth they are over the bumps you won't actually believe it. The turn-in under power when it 'assists' you is bonkers, (only try this on very safe sharp corners - getting these cars 'to the limit' is not possible at speed on public roads!) - and the car is just so damn usable, yes the doors get in the way in parking spaces (not as bad I first feared) - but you can literally use it as a daily drive. And lastly - nothing is as fast in the price bracket, 650S, faster than Huracan, 458 Speciale, and yes even an Aventador.
Buy the 458 if you just want the badge, buy the McLaren if you want the best car for the money.
I totally get why people would choose the McLaren over a comparably priced Italian. A friend of mine has a 12C and it's amazing. Therefore I can kind of imagine how mind-blowing the 650S is. But to suggest one buys a Ferrari 'just for the badge' is ridiculous. They are great cars and let's be honest, there are many other intangible and aspirational factors that come into play. There's no such thing as the right or wrong choice when you're lucky enough, as we are, to go car shopping at this level. For the money the 650S was so many leagues ahead in handling and general road holding, unless you have actually driven a McLaren and experienced how f
king smooth they are over the bumps you won't actually believe it. The turn-in under power when it 'assists' you is bonkers, (only try this on very safe sharp corners - getting these cars 'to the limit' is not possible at speed on public roads!) - and the car is just so damn usable, yes the doors get in the way in parking spaces (not as bad I first feared) - but you can literally use it as a daily drive. And lastly - nothing is as fast in the price bracket, 650S, faster than Huracan, 458 Speciale, and yes even an Aventador. Buy the 458 if you just want the badge, buy the McLaren if you want the best car for the money.
Really love both cars however .............................
I only have a single size garage how the hell are you supposed to open the doors.
Guess Mclaren designers must assume anyone who can afford one must have a double garage.
How do you Mclaren owners manage, or is there something I dont know ?
I only have a single size garage how the hell are you supposed to open the doors.
Guess Mclaren designers must assume anyone who can afford one must have a double garage.
How do you Mclaren owners manage, or is there something I dont know ?
After watching the videos linked above these 2 are also worth a watch.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vRy1zHAB2N8
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gc_y9jVkcCk
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vRy1zHAB2N8
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gc_y9jVkcCk
TISPKJ said:
After watching the videos linked above these 2 are also worth a watch.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vRy1zHAB2N8
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gc_y9jVkcCk
That first video confirms why I've just bought a 458....https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vRy1zHAB2N8
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gc_y9jVkcCk
The second makes me wonder if I've done the right thing
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