Asking Prices for Manuals still climbing!!

[Russell996]

mwstewart said:

Yes,I think that's pretty obvious. The point I was responding to was what's quickest on track doesn't necessarily translate to a better, more fulfilling experience on the road.

Like all these things there is no hard and fast rule regarding gearboxes, some manuals are great whilst others are poor, same with automated manuals - some are wonderful while others are terrible.

[cgt2]

Russell996 said:

Like all these things there is no hard and fast rule regarding gearboxes, some manuals are great whilst others are poor, same with automated manuals - some are wonderful while others are terrible.

There is quite a distinction between F1 and DCT. I remember the first time I drove a 355 F1 in 1998 I could not believe how s*** it was. Later cars were better, but even very late 430's from 2009 still had that inconsistency, sometimes smooth, other times jerky and often requiring a lot of concentration to be consistent. I thought the same of the 'holy grail' 360CS too. Some F1 equipped cars are better than others for no obvious reason.

Compare with a 458 and it is night and day, and personally the 458 gives me far more satisfaction than the manual 430.

[Kyodo]

mwstewart said:

Formula one is concerned with quickest consistent lap time for a given set of regulations, hence driver pleasure and involvement are items that are nowhere near the top of their requirements list, if on it at all.

I agree but like you, I've driven our car on many superb European roads, not just the traffic laden UK. When it came to driving involvement the F1 box came into its own, an absolute pleasure to drive. It's a manual box, what's not to love?!

[mwstewart]

Kyodo said:

I agree but like you, I've driven our car on many superb European roads, not just the traffic laden UK. When it came to driving involvement the F1 box came into its own, an absolute pleasure to drive. It's a manual box, what's not to love?!

Sure, sounds good. I certainly wouldn't have a problem owning a post 355 era F1.

[allister]

_Leg_ said:

allister said:

That confirms it then - This is the second Manual F430 that I know to have sold this month for over £100k (both of similar mileage / age)..... This one being the slightly higher priced of the two at £130k

Edited by allister on Thursday 21st January 06:07

Advertised price and sold price are typically very, very different.

This car sold in just 3 days!!! - The car dealers you've dealt with must be very different to any I've ever experienced..... I doubt you'll find many who are going to slash the price after just 2 or 3 days of advertising. In fact, I suspect the complete opposite, they will have been standing very firm.

The second car I refer too, was bought by someone I know and they've told me that the main dealer wouldn't budge at all on the price..... The general opinion among dealers who have these cars is, "If you don't want to pay it, someone else certainly will"

[Russell996]

cgt2 said:

There is quite a distinction between F1 and DCT. I remember the first time I drove a 355 F1 in 1998 I could not believe how s*** it was. Later cars were better, but even very late 430's from 2009 still had that inconsistency, sometimes smooth, other times jerky and often requiring a lot of concentration to be consistent. I thought the same of the 'holy grail' 360CS too. Some F1 equipped cars are better than others for no obvious reason.

Compare with a 458 and it is night and day, and personally the 458 gives me far more satisfaction than the manual 430.

I was thinking GTO and Scud F1 versions as being extremely exciting to drive and as defining to the driving experience as any manual - personally I now try to avoid DCT at all cost because of the lack of involvement (458 included).

[PHOENIXUK]

allister said:

_Leg_ said:

allister said:

That confirms it then - This is the second Manual F430 that I know to have sold this month for over £100k (both of similar mileage / age)..... This one being the slightly higher priced of the two at £130k

Edited by allister on Thursday 21st January 06:07

Advertised price and sold price are typically very, very different.

This car sold in just 3 days!!! - The car dealers you've dealt with must be very different to any I've ever experienced..... I doubt you'll find many who are going to slash the price after just 2 or 3 days of advertising. In fact, I suspect the complete opposite, they will have been standing very firm.

The second car I refer too, was bought by someone I know and they've told me that the main dealer wouldn't budge at all on the price..... The general opinion among dealers who have these cars is, "If you don't want to pay it, someone else certainly will"

Are people really paying these crazy prices? If yes good for them they must be able to afford it so I hope they drive them and enjoy them...
I wonder if the people who purchased before this madness and at a realistic price will still enjoy driving them......
If the fact they are selling at such crazy prices excites you best sell it or forget about it and just drive it because sure as eggs are eggs
fads change and a whilst the F430 isnt bad it isnt all that to drive, whatever the gearbox..All my own work all my own opinion..

[roygarth]

jtremlett said:

but there is no mystery in this. Ferrari stopped making manuals because people stopped buying them. You only have to look at the split between manual and F1 cars over time (and bearing in mind it was a £7k option to start with) to see manual sales rapidly diminishing.

If people really wanted manual Ferraris to continue they should have been buying them new and they weren't.

Jonathan

This is all true. Its interesting that there is more demand from 'used' buyers for manual than 'new'. I'm not sure I know for sure why this is? Are they older? More 'enthusiast'?

[Nano2nd]

roygarth said:

This is all true. Its interesting that there is more demand from 'used' buyers for manual than 'new'. I'm not sure I know for sure why this is? Are they older? More 'enthusiast'?

i would say so, i'm guessing a lot of new ferraris are bought by rich people because they can and not because they care so much about the thrill of driving i'm looking at buying a new m235i for my daily commute, it'll be an auto because its nicer and easy to drive, if you in the same situation where a new ferrari can be considered as a daily most people would do the same i guess... my MD certainly falls into this category, whilst he can certainly afford to buy and use and F40 as a daily, he chooses a new FF instead

[Pork]

roygarth said:

jtremlett said:

but there is no mystery in this. Ferrari stopped making manuals because people stopped buying them. You only have to look at the split between manual and F1 cars over time (and bearing in mind it was a £7k option to start with) to see manual sales rapidly diminishing.

If people really wanted manual Ferraris to continue they should have been buying them new and they weren't.

Jonathan

This is all true. Its interesting that there is more demand from 'used' buyers for manual than 'new'. I'm not sure I know for sure why this is? Are they older? More 'enthusiast'?

Does that mean that Ferrari will make manuals again, if demand is there?

[johnwilliams77]

Pork said:

Does that mean that Ferrari will make manuals again, if demand is there?

No

[sparta6]

Frank Scafidi, director of public affairs for the National Insurance Crime Bureau which tracks car theft trends said,

"Some thieves might be thwarted in their attempt to steal a car with a manual transmission, since many thieves possess varying levels of intellect."

[jtremlett]

Pork said:

Does that mean that Ferrari will make manuals again, if demand is there?

Personally I think they would - they're a business after all. But I think they'd take a lot of convincing that the market is there and I don't think it is. If I were buying a new Ferrari and they still made manuals, I'd be going for the F1 anyway. I know some time ago when one of the dealers had a manual 599 in for sale that several of them drove it and none liked it. They all agreed it just didn't suit the car.

Jonathan

[kbooker]

Russell996 said:

I was thinking GTO and Scud F1 versions as being extremely exciting to drive and as defining to the driving experience as any manual - personally I now try to avoid DCT at all cost because of the lack of involvement (458 included).

I agree, I loved my Scud' gearbox, extremely exciting it certainly was. I find the 458 DCT too smooth and refined, I'd welcome more of a kick in the back on up-shifts...

[SlartiF430]

Makes no sense. Sold my 430 to buy a mclaren (after thinking I wanted a 458). Having owned the Mac for a couple of weeks, there's no way I'd go back to the 430. I loved the 430, I love my 12c much more and it's a couple of leagues ahead of the 430 in every respect (feel, handling, performance, shift speeds, multimedia, breadth of capability etc). Calling it an unloved technofest (as someone did above) is disingenuous.

[mike01606]

These threads and particularly the ones on the dedicated forums are particularly interesting to read.

There are loads of threads started on how great manuals are, how rare manuals and how valuable manuals are. Probably all started by manual owners and as soon as they fall off the page, another starts......
Semi-auto owners don't seem to start similar threads and I'm pretty sure they're not all sat there wishing they had a manual and thinking bks, I bought the wrong car (well obviously value aside ).....

As others have said it is a recent phenomena. I'd say for F car V8's particularly in the last 12 - 18 months according to say Voicey's data. The current market is strange. It is seeing value and rarity where it didn't before and it won't take much for it to change.
The F430 is the 'last normally aspirated Ferrari V8' manual, but then the 360 is the 'last 40 valve normally aspirated' manual and the 355 is the 'last truly pretty V8' manual....etc

If people truly believe a 430 manual will be worth £300k in x years, whereas a 430 F1 will only be worth £80k then they are dreaming IMHO.
If you really have to have a manual buy one that was designed that way......For me a 550 or 355 would tick that box perfectly.
As would a new 'low powered' Dino type sports car (ala GT4) but a 488/F12 TDF type manual would probably eat it's gearbox and empty your wallet on the first missed change.

Basically we are not trusted to change gear manually anymore....

Edited by mike01606 on Saturday 23 January 20:50

[roygarth]

mike01606 said:

These threads and particularly the ones on the dedicated forums are particularly interesting to read.

There are loads of threads started on how great manuals are, how rare manuals and how valuable manuals are. Probably all started by manual owners and as soon as they fall off the page, another starts......
Semi-auto owners don't seem to start similar threads and I'm pretty sure they're not all sat there wishing they had a manual and thinking bks, I bought the wrong car (well obviously value aside ).....

As others have said it is a recent phenomena. I'd say for F car V8's particularly in the last 12 - 18 months according to say Voicey's data. The current market is strange. It is seeing value and rarity where it didn't before and it won't take much for it to change.
The F430 is the 'last normally aspirated Ferrari V8' manual, but then the 360 is the 'last 40 valve normally aspirated' manual and the 355 is the 'last truly pretty V8' manual....etc

If people truly believe a 430 manual will be worth £300k in x years, whereas a 430 F1 will only be worth £80k then they are dreaming IMHO.
If you really have to have a manual buy one that was designed that way......For me a 550 or 355 would tick that box perfectly.
As would a new 'low powered' Dino type sports car (ala GT4) but a 488/F12 TDF type manual would probably eat it's gearbox and empty your wallet on the first missed change.

Basically we are not trusted to change gear manually anymore….

Edited by mike01606 on Saturday 23 January 20:50

3 pedal manual gearbox cars have been with us for, what, 75 years, and that method of changing gears has not really changed in that time. OK there have been auto boxes also but these have never appealed to performance car owners. But very soon manual boxes will not be available on performance cars. So you could say its the end of an era and that the highest performance manual gearboxes cars are therefore very important, desirable and therefore collectable. Perhaps driving enthusiasts aged 30 plus will always want the best/fastest manual boxed cars as time goes by? The 430 is pretty much the last manual boxed Ferrari, they didn't make many of them and its an amazing car to boot. So I think its current pricing looks reasonable.

[keith jecks]

Having had a 360 F1 with upgraded (supposedly 430) software, I didn't really like it. It was very efficient and certainly better than the manual cars (e.g. 575 if had before - oh how I wish I had kept that one!!) The trouble was that I just didn't find the 360 F1 that much fun. So when I went looking for a new Fcar, I wanted a convertible and I wanted a proper manual gearbox. At the time I didn't really see it as an investment (Ferraris in my experience are expensive luxuries). I was just after the most fun. I can't say I am sorry though that the market seems to have put a big value on manuals and hope that view continues!

As to whether they will bring out more manuals, I doubt it myself. For two reasons. First, let us not forget that they offered a manual gearbox on the California and only sold 2 cars in the UK. I would like to know the engineering development cost attributed to each of those... Secondly, I think the focus on automatics was driven by emissions because with the automatic gear change maps they can control the emissions better and get more favourable CO2 ratings on the ridiculous Euro tests. I don't think that will change.

[ZeroH]

I

SlartiF430 said:

Makes no sense. Sold my 430 to buy a mclaren (after thinking I wanted a 458). Having owned the Mac for a couple of weeks, there's no way I'd go back to the 430. I loved the 430, I love my 12c much more and it's a couple of leagues ahead of the 430 in every respect (feel, handling, performance, shift speeds, multimedia, breadth of capability etc). Calling it an unloved technofest (as someone did above) is disingenuous.

I really don't get this perspective..... I get that you are comparing 430 and McLaren because you have just jumped from one to the other, and yes the more modern car drives better in your opinion..... but in terms of valuation, the market really doesn't care that much if one car from one brand is faster or handles better than another from another brand !! It's irrelevant ! Why should a boggo manual 2001 Ferrari 360 with lowish miles (10k odd) be worth more (£110k) than a similar miles 2014 991 turbo ?? - a car which no one would deny is anything other than leagues ahead in every respect !

Demand for manuals has changed simply because they are not being made anymore.... It's not unique to Ferrari.... When the 991 gt3 came out with no manual box option, older manual gt3s started to appreciate very rapidly.... This appreciation leads to more owners simply holding onto their cars as they become a store of value, creating even less supply into the market than otherwise.

DCT boxes are what the F1 semi auto boxes always wanted to be, just that the tech wasn't there in the 355/360/430 era.... Having experienced both.... If I want a flappy paddle box then I'd want the latest greatest that my budget could afford and it wouldn't be a tough task as there are zillions of modern/modern classic f1/dCT Ferraris for sale at any given time offering me that..... If on the other hand I want the most modern version of the gearbox that I've romanticised as a kid and honed the skills for as a young adult, as well as wanting to be greeted to the instantly recognisable, stylish and timeless chrome gated shifter every time I open the door, then I'd better get my cheque book out big time because the owners of those cars know what they have and my choices are very very limited

[ZeroH]

_Leg_ said:

Advertised price and sold price are typically very, very different.

Sometimes sure..... not for low mile Rosso manual 430s with full (and fully documented) service history tho.....This car sold for pretty much ALL the money (130k), fact.