355 vs 360 vs 430 spider

355 vs 360 vs 430 spider

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Discussion

FunkyMunky71

Original Poster:

38 posts

105 months

Saturday 30th April 2016
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Towels on seats is really getting back to the Elise S1 experience. Sorry, got them to drop price to match the difference of trade in on the Boxster plus the discount they'd offered. I won't be on a track much, but there's a lovely car similar to this with CCB at Meridian Modena. What do you reckon? I've read the threads and as usual opinion is divided.

paulmnz

471 posts

173 months

Saturday 30th April 2016
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When I was first looking, I was dead set that I didn't want the CCM brakes due to the replacement cost, then I read a few pretty scathing reviews of the steel brake setup which apparently isn't up to the job on the track or challenging roads (ie the alps where I plan to take mine regularly!) so I went with CCM. bear in mind the steel has significantly smaller rotors - 330mm x 32mm with the CCM 380mm x 34mm - so the difference is not just the material. the CCM uses a 6-piston caliper vs 4 on the steel ones.

If you don't use it on the track, you should find CCM brakes will last a very long time (my car is on it's original rotors with 40% wear after 10 years)

the market seems to be neutral price wise, so more about preference I guess. the CCM brakes are mighty though - obviously powerful and fade-free, but they also have a very good pedal feel.

cars with CCM brakes have wear estimation stored in the ECU - so if you look at a car with them, ask for a reading and then you can gauge when you might need to replace them. cars like the ones you linked to with 14k miles should probably only be 20-30% worn at most.

As you say - opinion is divided so either system is fine in terms of 'resale', but only you know if you 'need' the extra braking capability.

FunkyMunky71 said:
Towels on seats is really getting back to the Elise S1 experience. Sorry, got them to drop price to match the difference of trade in on the Boxster plus the discount they'd offered. I won't be on a track much, but there's a lovely car similar to this with CCB at Meridian Modena. What do you reckon? I've read the threads and as usual opinion is divided.

dvb247

270 posts

197 months

Tuesday 3rd May 2016
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I have steel on my f430 spider and I am happy to share my experience after 18 months of ownership, after a couple of months I joined other FOC members for an NW FOC track day, I wanted to experience the day as a box ticker and I had arranged for my eldest son to drive my F430 with an instructor for his 18th Birthday as a surprise, I have a National B race licence and very familiar with the Oulton Park race circuits having raced there many times (3 circuit configurations, Croft, shell, international) so whilst I'm capable as a circuit driver I was well aware I had not purchased my spider to thrash it at a track month in month out, however, I did exercise it for a hot lap and to my surprise my breaks cooked, I lost all ability to stop so I coasted at good pace to cool them for half a lap, tried again and the same again, Stratstone were the FOC sponsors and technical support so they quickly flushed out the break fluid and replaced with new, I then tried again and again, I cooked the breaks, therefore my experience is that steel breaks are not up to track use as standard, you may get better results with upgraded aftermarket pads and discs, I have no knowledge to share on those options.
For road use I have never ever experienced that same brake fade, they have been more than good enough and don't feel I would ever cook them again as a road user. Would I have CCM? Yes, they look gorgeous, would I ever notice for the rest of my driving days on the road? No.

FunkyMunky71

Original Poster:

38 posts

105 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
quotequote all
Thanks guys. Very informative. I'm about to put a deposit in the Graypaul car. As I'm unlikely to track the car would the steel brakes be OK? Too much choice and not much in it price wise. I guess I'd like CCBs but it it's not too much of an issue really and I really like the carboned up F430 at Graypaul.

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
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Steel brakes will be fine. Break fade is down to either the fluid boiling (pedal feels spongy) or the pads overheating and losing all friction against the rotor (pedal feels ok but no stopping power) - there's sure to be more to it but those are the basics IIRC. Both can be improved by using a race spec fluid with a higher boiling point and fitting performance pads. You can go even further by switching to braided brake lines or fitting heat shields to the pads. If you really want to push hard then the next step would be larger rotors - probably the fronts only. Lots of options, all relatively cheap. CCMs are fitted to road cars for aesthetic reasons and because the expectation is for supercars to have the latest and greatest. Properly set up steels are more than good enough for 99% of road users - and most track day cars too.

paulmnz

471 posts

173 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
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OP - the black car does look lovely and has all the carbon bits - beautiful car. as dvb247 says, steel brakes will probably be fine for 99% of road use and gentle track use.

I tracked my car at Silverstone with the CCM's - the brakes are indeed immense - tyres were the limiting factor - 5 laps and they were over heating and time to come in, brakes were fine. I race regularly but I don't really plan to track this car much (and it's actually far too loud for UK trackdays anyway)

One road-use caveat - I will be doing a 5,000km euro trip through the alps this summer and I know I will need the CCMs for that - I've done alpine trips for the last 5 years in a number of my road/track cars - they all have race pads and/or upgraded brake systems - on roads like the col de turini I've seen over 300 degree brake rotor surface temperature and I've had brake fade on a couple of occasions. The same cars have been on circuits all over the UK and the nurburgring without ever experiencing fade - alpine descents seem to be worse than tracks since the speed is relatively low, and on steeper sections your on the brakes a lot so they have no chance to recover and cool.

Of course there are ways around that - drive a bit slower and be more gentle on the brakes - but unfortunately the noise of the car at 8,500rpm bouncing off the hills is likely to convince you to put your toe down smile

dvb247 said:
I have steel on my f430 spider and I am happy to share my experience after 18 months of ownership, after a couple of months I joined other FOC members for an NW FOC track day, I wanted to experience the day as a box ticker and I had arranged for my eldest son to drive my F430 with an instructor for his 18th Birthday as a surprise, I have a National B race licence and very familiar with the Oulton Park race circuits having raced there many times (3 circuit configurations, Croft, shell, international) so whilst I'm capable as a circuit driver I was well aware I had not purchased my spider to thrash it at a track month in month out, however, I did exercise it for a hot lap and to my surprise my breaks cooked, I lost all ability to stop so I coasted at good pace to cool them for half a lap, tried again and the same again, Stratstone were the FOC sponsors and technical support so they quickly flushed out the break fluid and replaced with new, I then tried again and again, I cooked the breaks, therefore my experience is that steel breaks are not up to track use as standard, you may get better results with upgraded aftermarket pads and discs, I have no knowledge to share on those options.
For road use I have never ever experienced that same brake fade, they have been more than good enough and don't feel I would ever cook them again as a road user. Would I have CCM? Yes, they look gorgeous, would I ever notice for the rest of my driving days on the road? No.

mwstewart

7,554 posts

187 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
quotequote all
I've had one 430 with iron brakes and one with CCM. I found the iron brakes were atrocious when using the upper reaches of the cars performance; stops from deep into triple figures overwhelmed them and they were also a huge limiting factor on Euro trips in mountainous areas and meant I could not fully exploit the power. Having said this, should your driving consist of a few gentle trips and the occasional blast at moderate speeds then the iron brakes should be OK, but at least change the fluid for something better as another poster has suggested. Do also check the condition of the discs and ensure they aren't approaching minimum thickness (if a previous seller skimmed them to sell the car you won’t notice by a visual check) because that will further diminish their heat management capability.

With regards the CCMs, as well as increased power and heat management, they also reduce unsprung weight by quite a few kg. Like switching from the heavy standard wheels the difference is quite noticeable as the suspension is freed up to do its job. Remember the platform was originally designed with light weight 18” wheels in mind.

I’m sure you’ll enjoy the car, OP, but get to know the limitations of the brakes before you give it some welly!

N.B. the CCMs can be retrofitted without too much trouble. It was an official upgrade. There are brand new kits floating around now for as low as 8k.

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
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mwstewart said:
Iron brakes are atrocious if using the cars performance but when not they are just about OK! The reduced unsprung weight from the CCMs is another major factor for me; like switching from the heavy standard wheels the difference is noticeable.
frown Really, atrocious..? Differences of opinion are great but I would contest this. Rotors on the early 430's are an alloy specially developed by Brembo and correctly set up are certainly not atrocious. Yes, of course they are not CCMs but there are many race series that use steels exclusively including the new LMP3 series at Le Mans in which Martin Brundle will participate. Making statements like this that can affect someone's buying decision is hardly helpful.

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
quotequote all
Ah - you updated your post smile Fair play.

paulmnz

471 posts

173 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
quotequote all
We are digressing a bit here as I think we are all agreeing for the OP's needs steel should be fine smile...

However...

Lots of race series do indeed use steel brakes including Indycar up until a few years back and some of the cheaper 911 cup cars (the supercup run PCCB) this is primarily to keep running costs lower - here is a quote from a Penske interview on why they used to run steel brakes on Indy CHAMP cars:

[i]Why do you run steel brakes, not carbon?

Carbon disks cost $1500 each, and you will need to change them at least four times over the course of a grand prix, so they are very expensive. Steel is much cheaper, but it is much heavier - this creates a noticeable moment of inertia when braking, which is why carbon brakes are used on superspeedways (this is also because steel has a tendency to expand and crack under such conditions).[/i]

But that's not the same thing as what we are talking about here. any road car based racing series that runs steel brakes will run a significantly upgraded steel setup - usually an increase in diameter and thickness of the rotor as well as a physically larger pad and calliper.

There are lots of people who track their F430s and Scuds running the CCM calliper setup with steel rotors and they work great on the track - but remember it's a larger 6-piston calliper and a much larger rotor. IMHO, it's the size of the steel setup that is the problem, not the rotor/pad material. FYI, ff corsa sell a kit for converting CCM cars to steel brake rotors to reduce cost for regular track day goers: http://ffcorse.com/store/

The F430 steel brake rotors are physically quite small - heat management in the brakes is all about the ability to absorb and remove heat - more material = more heat capacity = better fade resistance.

There is also another reason to run higher heat capacity brakes - it reduces the overheating of other components. My track cars used to wear out front wheel bearings more regularly when the brakes where marginal - more heat capacity in the brake systems means less heat is transferred to the hubs and suspension components.

Anyhow, the OP needs to get on and get that Graypaul car bought and start enjoying the sunshine!

thecook101 said:
frown Really, atrocious..? Differences of opinion are great but I would contest this. Rotors on the early 430's are an alloy specially developed by Brembo and correctly set up are certainly not atrocious. Yes, of course they are not CCMs but there are many race series that use steels exclusively including the new LMP3 series at Le Mans in which Martin Brundle will participate. Making statements like this that can affect someone's buying decision is hardly helpful.

mwstewart

7,554 posts

187 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
quotequote all
thecook101 said:
Ah - you updated your post smile Fair play.
Yeah. I thought it came across really badly.

I hope the OP has miles of enjoyment smile

cgt2

7,093 posts

187 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
quotequote all
I agree with the comments above. The reduced unsprung weight of CCM's gave much superior steering feel over the iron brakes, it was quite noticable in my opinion. Much the same applies to a lot of cars, a 911 GT3 on carbon brakes is so much sharper too.

And as mentioned, having the confidence in the CCM brakes on an Autobahn when slowing from 150+ gave me more confidence than any previous Ferrari braking setup.

I'll never forget the time I was on an Autobahn in a 355 and braking from a highish speed and the brakes turned to treacle. That was not very nice...

FunkyMunky71

Original Poster:

38 posts

105 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
quotequote all
So of a shortlist here's 3 to compare:

http://www.meridien.co.uk/ferrari/preowned/5569525...

http://www.meridien.co.uk/ferrari/preowned/5773095...

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2016...

I'm thinking either of the Meridien Cars might be preferable, but I do love the CF steering wheel and lower mileage in the Graypaul car!

Thoughts please?


Frrair

1,365 posts

133 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
quotequote all
I like the black one best.....

They all look great but to be more helpful I prefer the middle link.

I am sure all would be epic.

Good luck with your decision and I hope it's everything you hope it to be.


mwstewart

7,554 posts

187 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
quotequote all
For me the Graypaul car. I like the contrast stitching on the dash and the carbon wheel & cluster. I've found they make a nice difference when sat behind the wheel. I also like the leather interior sill panels which in a black car will serve to create some further contrast.

The 'race' seats in Meridien car #1 look very dated and don't suit the rest of the F430 styling, so I wouldn't go for that car.

Meridien car #2 doesn't have the rear upper segment in carbon.

The mileage is insignificant. You can add that in a couple of months use over the summer.

Check the assembly number against my build spreadsheet to rule out a late registered '07 build http://www.mwstewart.co.uk/misc/f430/F430%20assemb...

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
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How tall are you? I'm 6'4 and seats can make all the difference.

FunkyMunky71

Original Poster:

38 posts

105 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
quotequote all
Thanks mwstewart, so am I looking for AN from 74274 upward for a 2008 model year. The Graypaul car is a 57 plate 2008 car allegedly so I will ask such numbers by email. What exactly do I need to ask for to ascertain whether it's a proper 2008 car? I like the interior best on that car too.

I'm 6'1" thecook but have broad shoulders and found a Stratton car I drove with these seats really too narrow:

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...

The other car I sat in with Daytonas though was fine and comfy.

mwstewart

7,554 posts

187 months

Thursday 5th May 2016
quotequote all
The AN is likely to be in the 77xx range, though really the most import thing is that it has all the updates covered in the sheet: my rationale being that if you are paying the premium for a 2008 reg you may as well get all of the benefits of an MY08 car.

I'm starting to think that a reliable visual check is the absence of the key hole on the passenger door.

mwstewart

7,554 posts

187 months

Thursday 5th May 2016
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P.s. If you ask them for the assembly number they should get it for you. It's on a plate riveted to the rear cross member.

paulmnz

471 posts

173 months

Thursday 5th May 2016
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I like this one best:
http://www.meridien.co.uk/ferrari/preowned/5773095...

I'd have to have the race seats as they look better, are far more comfortable and of course they weigh less smile, has the rear carbon grill which is also very desirable. brakes of course we have discussed at length!

Although its personal opinion, black car with creme interior is about the highest maintenance combination you could get - keeping both the inside and outside looking good is going to keep you busy!

remember to get the clutch and brake readings and factor that into your thoughts around value. with 17,000 I'd expect both to be 25-35% worn.

FunkyMunky71 said:
So of a shortlist here's 3 to compare:

http://www.meridien.co.uk/ferrari/preowned/5569525...

http://www.meridien.co.uk/ferrari/preowned/5773095...

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2016...

I'm thinking either of the Meridien Cars might be preferable, but I do love the CF steering wheel and lower mileage in the Graypaul car!

Thoughts please?