996 C4S purchase

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Phil-68

Original Poster:

44 posts

95 months

Monday 18th April 2016
quotequote all
Hi all,
This is my first post, sort of! (I used to be on here a few years back but hadn't been on here for a while so have lost my log in details).

After having been without a Porsche for a couple of years due to serious illness, we are now in the market for a 996 C4S. I've been looking online mainly, but will start going to look at cars as they become available. I have actually seen one for sale at a small garage in Birmingham, but I didn't get a good "vibe" from the place. I'm thinking of going via one of the many Porsche Independent specialists. There is one car that looks interesting to us, but it's about 130 miles away. Now I certainly don't mind travelling, but after asking the dealer some questions, I'm a little put off by the fact that it's had 8 owners. It's a MY 2002. Should this concern me? It has full history, decent mileage and is in great condition apparently, but being the 9th owner doesn't sit comfortably with me. I'm not in a great rush to get one, but I'm also wondering how often they come on the market (I haven't been monitoring this as we've only just decided to go for the 996 - we were going to go for a 997 on a PCP from an OPC, but the deals are poor).

I'm trying to compile a list of reputable dealers to contact, I'm not fussed about location as I will happily travel if needed. I'm in the Midlands so nowhere is going to be a ridiculous distance!

I have some other questions regarding the vehicle itself if that's ok.
I am not sure about manual or tiptronic. Our Cayman had PDK which was fantastic, but I don't mind manual cars and I'm also thinking ahead a little regarding resale. I guess if the perfect C4S becomes available and it ticks all our boxes, but was tiptronic, I'd probably go for it, but I just wanted to get some opinion on this.

Colour I am sure about, it has to be silver or grey with black interior. Optional extras - again I'm not sure, but I appreciate I'm just going to have to go with whatever it has, when I find a suitable vehicle. (Condition, mileage, history are more important). However, are there any "must haves" on a car like this? I would prefer heated seats, park assist and sports exhaust, but I realise I may not get any of those.

The couple of salesmen I have spoken to so far have all been very dismissive of the IMS and other engine issues, and were keen to tell me that 996 C4S values are increasing rapidly!?

Thanks for reading and sorry for a long first post, but I just wanted to get a bit of advice and opinion off fellow enthusiasts.

Phil

INWB

896 posts

106 months

Monday 18th April 2016
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I bought my C4S last September after months of searching for a good one. I wasn't bothered with Bose (because it is rubbish) or many of the other options. I was just after a sold car with impeccable service history. It was tougher than I thought. Some real dogs on the market. Think those with decent ones are enjoying deflation proof cars so have little apetite to sell.

Pricing has firmed but they aren't going up at the rate of say the 996 turbo which was around £10-15K lower early last year. However in my experience you need to budget £22K to £26K for a decent one with around 50,000 miles.

Not sure where you are in the midlands but if you want to come and take a look at mine as a benchmark feel free. I'm just north of Leicester.

LordHaveMurci

12,034 posts

168 months

Monday 18th April 2016
quotequote all
A decent indie such as 911 Virgin would be a sensible idea, or get a potential putprchase inspected.

Seal grey looks great, PSE sounds sooooooo much better, it really is a must have unless you want to fit an aftermarket exhaust.

Manual will hold calue better & would be my personal choice but if you like tiptronic then it's your choice.

C4S are being talked about as a future classic so now would seem to be the time to buy a good one, IMS/bore score etc do seem to be over hyped but if it happens to you it's still gonna hurt!

Edited by LordHaveMurci on Tuesday 19th April 12:40

Phil-68

Original Poster:

44 posts

95 months

Monday 18th April 2016
quotequote all
Thanks for the reply INWB.

Interesting what you say about people not keen to sell them, never thought of that. One dealer I spoke to today said they get them in all the time, but I'm not so sure. Had to laugh about your comment about the Bose!! When we were discussing whether to travel to London to look at the car I mentioned, my wife said she liked that it'd got Bose, but I'm not as keen. I'd rather listen to the engine. If I could choose my options I'd have a sports exhaust first, but then again I've never heard a 996 so maybe it's good enough without it? We hired a 997 S Gen 2 a few years ago for a weekend (that's what converted us to the brand) and that sounded awesome, a lot better than our Cayman.

I would love to take you up on your offer to have a look, (and hopefully a listen!) to your car if that's still ok. That is very kind of you. I was thinking of going along to some club evenings, and I'm definitely going to Porsches on the Prom. Looking forward to actually seeing some in the flesh, without salesman hassle!

Our budget is approx £25,000, so you were spot on.

I'm in Tamworth, so not too far away.

Phil-68

Original Poster:

44 posts

95 months

Monday 18th April 2016
quotequote all
Thanks Lord....,

I've not seen a Seal Grey one yet but I've always liked that colour. I think if I go and look at one in that colour I'll be forgetting silver ones!

I've been googling exhausts incase I can't get one with PSE, and there seem to be a few options, so it's not imperative to get one with it on.

Is it still necessary to get an inspection done if buying from one of the bigger independents, as they do a load of checks and provide a warranty?

IMS - I can't live with that uncertainty so I'll either buy one with it done or get it done straight away after purchase. We intend to keep this car for a long time so it makes sense.

Thanks, Phil

LordHaveMurci

12,034 posts

168 months

Monday 18th April 2016
quotequote all
Somebody will suggest buying a car with a Hartech engine rebuild but try finding one!

Lots of people buy from 911V etc without even seeing the car, some are better than others though.

My 996 C2 had a Cargraphic exhaust fitted last year, really does transform the car.

INWB

896 posts

106 months

Tuesday 19th April 2016
quotequote all
Phil-68 said:
Thanks for the reply INWB.

Interesting what you say about people not keen to sell them, never thought of that. One dealer I spoke to today said they get them in all the time, but I'm not so sure. Had to laugh about your comment about the Bose!! When we were discussing whether to travel to London to look at the car I mentioned, my wife said she liked that it'd got Bose, but I'm not as keen. I'd rather listen to the engine. If I could choose my options I'd have a sports exhaust first, but then again I've never heard a 996 so maybe it's good enough without it? We hired a 997 S Gen 2 a few years ago for a weekend (that's what converted us to the brand) and that sounded awesome, a lot better than our Cayman.

I would love to take you up on your offer to have a look, (and hopefully a listen!) to your car if that's still ok. That is very kind of you. I was thinking of going along to some club evenings, and I'm definitely going to Porsches on the Prom. Looking forward to actually seeing some in the flesh, without salesman hassle!

Our budget is approx £25,000, so you were spot on.

I'm in Tamworth, so not too far away.
No problem. Re exhausts - i have sports exhaust with the gundo mod. Sounds incredible. Pm me with contact details and we will something out.

Phil-68

Original Poster:

44 posts

95 months

Tuesday 19th April 2016
quotequote all
Will do, it won't let me just yet though as I'm a "new" member and it won't let me email/PM for the first 24 hours!?
I've got a feeling I'm going to be looking for one with a sports exhaust now!!

griffter

3,981 posts

254 months

Tuesday 19th April 2016
quotequote all
The salesmen played down the known issues and emphasised the increasing value. That doesn't surprise me. Read up on the ims issue. There are no definitive answers but there is a school of thought that leaving well enough alone after 10-15 years is a viable option. Also beware that ims isn't the only potent problem on the 3.6.

But on to brighter things, you have a good idea of what you want and are realistic about the need to compromise on options so I'm sure you'll find plenty to look at. I was very spec specific ( I didn't want a C4S) and ended up with seal grey with a sports exhaust. Aftermarket options are available if that's your thing, but the pse does it well.

Good luck.

Shaoxter

4,048 posts

123 months

Tuesday 19th April 2016
quotequote all
If you like PDK you probably won't like Tiptronic...

I wouldn't bother with a PSE unless it's had a new one fitted recently. A 14 year old stock PSE will most likely be splitting at the seams or the vacuum pipes seized or both. I got a Carnewal GT exhaust for 1k euros fitted including all new clamps and bolts (had to drive to Belgium but made a trip of it). There are also stainless steel options and Gundo hack as mentioned.

Here's a vid of my exhaust noise (around 1:35 and 3:45) biggrin
https://youtu.be/-swIeiZKZO4

If the car you're interested in is at a well known specialist in Mill Hill then I'd be happy to have a nose around for you as I'm only 10-15 mins away...

Phil-68

Original Poster:

44 posts

95 months

Tuesday 19th April 2016
quotequote all
griffter said:
The salesmen played down the known issues and emphasised the increasing value. That doesn't surprise me. Read up on the ims issue. There are no definitive answers but there is a school of thought that leaving well enough alone after 10-15 years is a viable option. Also beware that ims isn't the only potent problem on the 3.6.

But on to brighter things, you have a good idea of what you want and are realistic about the need to compromise on options so I'm sure you'll find plenty to look at. I was very spec specific ( I didn't want a C4S) and ended up with seal grey with a sports exhaust. Aftermarket options are available if that's your thing, but the pse does it well.

Good luck.
Thanks Grifter. smile

Phil-68

Original Poster:

44 posts

95 months

Tuesday 19th April 2016
quotequote all
Shaoxter said:
If you like PDK you probably won't like Tiptronic...

I wouldn't bother with a PSE unless it's had a new one fitted recently. A 14 year old stock PSE will most likely be splitting at the seams or the vacuum pipes seized or both. I got a Carnewal GT exhaust for 1k euros fitted including all new clamps and bolts (had to drive to Belgium but made a trip of it). There are also stainless steel options and Gundo hack as mentioned.

Here's a vid of my exhaust noise (around 1:35 and 3:45) biggrin
https://youtu.be/-swIeiZKZO4

If the car you're interested in is at a well known specialist in Mill Hill then I'd be happy to have a nose around for you as I'm only 10-15 mins away...
Interesting! thanks for that. I see your point about an old exhaust.

just watched your video. All i can say is WOW cool. Seriously, that sounds awesome. Where was that filmed? I'll be off to Belgium me thinks! (Travelling doesn't bother me, I cycled to Belgium and then on to Switzerland last year, but that's another story, so I can easily manage it in a 911).


I think you're right about Tiptronic, I'll find it a bit lethargic after the PDK. Wife's company car is a 5 Series touring and that's got an 8 speed auto which is fantastic, so going back to a 5 speed auto would feel a bit strange. Think I'll stick (pun not intended!!) to manual.

The car we were interested in was near Guildford, but thank you so much for your very kind offer.


Shaoxter

4,048 posts

123 months

Wednesday 20th April 2016
quotequote all
Phil-68 said:
just watched your video. All i can say is WOW cool. Seriously, that sounds awesome. Where was that filmed?
At the Nurburgring smile

Here's another vid from inside the car. The great thing about the exhaust is that it doesn't drone, it only gets loud on high load and/or high revs so it's as good as a switchable PSE IMO.

You can also kind of see how the Tip gearbox behaves if you watch the gear lights on the instrument cluster, I was changing gear manually with the buttons.
https://youtu.be/BYak4S2JakY

Phil-68

Original Poster:

44 posts

95 months

Thursday 21st April 2016
quotequote all
Shaoxter said:
At the Nurburgring smile

Here's another vid from inside the car. The great thing about the exhaust is that it doesn't drone, it only gets loud on high load and/or high revs so it's as good as a switchable PSE IMO.

You can also kind of see how the Tip gearbox behaves if you watch the gear lights on the instrument cluster, I was changing gear manually with the buttons.
https://youtu.be/BYak4S2JakY
Excellent stuff! Sounds great. I like your interior colour, and the seat backs look ace, are they standard?

Rockster

1,508 posts

159 months

Saturday 23rd April 2016
quotequote all
Phil-68 said:
I have some other questions regarding the vehicle itself if that's ok.
I am not sure about manual or tiptronic. Our Cayman had PDK which was fantastic, but I don't mind manual cars and I'm also thinking ahead a little regarding resale. I guess if the perfect C4S becomes available and it ticks all our boxes, but was tiptronic, I'd probably go for it, but I just wanted to get some opinion on this.

Colour I am sure about, it has to be silver or grey with black interior. Optional extras - again I'm not sure, but I appreciate I'm just going to have to go with whatever it has, when I find a suitable vehicle. (Condition, mileage, history are more important). However, are there any "must haves" on a car like this? I would prefer heated seats, park assist and sports exhaust, but I realise I may not get any of those.

The couple of salesmen I have spoken to so far have all been very dismissive of the IMS and other engine issues, and were keen to tell me that 996 C4S values are increasing rapidly!?

Thanks for reading and sorry for a long first post, but I just wanted to get a bit of advice and opinion off fellow enthusiasts.

Phil
Tip vs. manual is a personal thing. You will just have to make up your mind which one you want. If I came upon an otherwise good used Porsche with a Tip I'd buy the car no hesitation.

Be sure you thoroughly road test the car and the Tip.

The salesmen being dismissve of the IMS and other engine issues is typical of car salesmen. The rule is everything a car salesman tells you is intended to get you to buy the car as soon as possible and to pay as much for it as possible.

My must haves are cruise control (OBC is nice), rain sensing intermittent wipers, bi-xenon headlights, auto climate control, auto dimming mirrors. My lady friends like heated seats but my current Porsches don't have heated seats. Ok, I have to admit a while back -- last winter -- I had a new Cayenne diesel loaner with heated seats and I found myself turning on my seat's heater and going "aaaahhhhh". I wouldn't reject a car because it had no heated seats but neither would I reject it if it did have heated seats. If they are there they are there, if they are not there, not a deal killer. However, your missus might have a different opinion and you have to respect that.

Phil-68

Original Poster:

44 posts

95 months

Sunday 24th April 2016
quotequote all
Thanks for the info.

I've looked at a couple of cars and they haven't been great to be honest, they were both non-specialist garages and both had 3+ years gaps in between services, as well as other questionable issues.

I'm off to look at a Private sale later. If I like the car, what is the best way forward with a private purchase? Is it customary to leave a small deposit "subject to satisfactory inspection"? If so, what sort of deposit would suffice and would I get this back if the inspection brings up a lot of issues?

Thanks, Phil

Phil-68

Original Poster:

44 posts

95 months

Sunday 24th April 2016
quotequote all
INWB said:
I ...Not sure where you are in the midlands but if you want to come and take a look at mine as a benchmark feel free. I'm just north of Leicester.
Great to meet you and your nice car today, has definitely made our minds up....we want a C4S manual! (We went to look at a 997.1 afterwards but it was well dodgy!)
Thanks again

INWB

896 posts

106 months

Sunday 24th April 2016
quotequote all
Phil-68 said:
Great to meet you and your nice car today, has definitely made our minds up....we want a C4S manual! (We went to look at a 997.1 afterwards but it was well dodgy!)
Thanks again
It was really great meeting you both - I hope you find something soon and when you do remember to contact me.

Glad you want a 996 over a 997. Sure the 997 front end is arguably better than the 996 but the later 996 lights look okay and most forget about the whole "it is the boxster front end" nonsense. But the main thing is the 996 c4s arse. It is way way better imo than the 997 which was a bit of a disappointment.

Once I have had the work done to mine it would be good to see it again. Perhaps at a porsche club meet.

All the best

Fl0pp3r

859 posts

202 months

Sunday 24th April 2016
quotequote all
I would recommend buying from specialist Indy's such as Paragon, RPM Technik, JZM or 911V as this will minimise your risk of encountering issues with the car. But if you do go private, ensure you get it inspected by a reputable body such as Peter Morgan or your nearest Indy as this will give you peace of mind and potentially save you a bundle if the engine exhibits signs of bore scoring or imminent IMS bearing failure - real but manageable risks on the M96 engine.

I wouldn't sweat the number of owners overly - Porsches are quite often owned by people as an aspirational thing and they may not be in a position to fund lomgterm, so ownership can be quite naturally short. 8 owners in 13 yrs (2002 model you quote) is not unusual imho.

I would defo want a manual over a tip if I were looking for the best C4S i could find, both for engagement and future value.

As far as colours go, whatever floats your boat! But do avoid the more dubious interior colours you may encounter - these will make future resale a nightmare!!

Best of luck with your search mate! driving

Phil-68

Original Poster:

44 posts

95 months

Monday 25th April 2016
quotequote all
Fl0pp3r said:
I would recommend buying from specialist Indy's such as Paragon, RPM Technik, JZM or 911V as this will minimise your risk of encountering issues with the car. But if you do go private, ensure you get it inspected by a reputable body such as Peter Morgan or your nearest Indy as this will give you peace of mind and potentially save you a bundle if the engine exhibits signs of bore scoring or imminent IMS bearing failure - real but manageable risks on the M96 engine.

I wouldn't sweat the number of owners overly - Porsches are quite often owned by people as an aspirational thing and they may not be in a position to fund lomgterm, so ownership can be quite naturally short. 8 owners in 13 yrs (2002 model you quote) is not unusual imho.

I would defo want a manual over a tip if I were looking for the best C4S i could find, both for engagement and future value.

As far as colours go, whatever floats your boat! But do avoid the more dubious interior colours you may encounter - these will make future resale a nightmare!!

Best of luck with your search mate! driving
Thanks!

We've not gone for the car we viewed as a private sale. Without going into any detail, to be fair to the seller who was a top bloke and has it advertised on here, it wasn't the one for us.

We are actually getting very frustrated with the whole thing now. We've seen a few dodgy cars (the private sale not one of them I must add).

I haven't actually viewed one at a Porsche Specialist yet, so I'm hoping when we do go to see the car we have our eye on, it will be a good one.

I asked the dealer some questions, which they have replied to. I also asked about bore scoring and whether they would check for this before purchase. This was the reply I got back....

The bore scoring isn’t an issue on the 996 C4S, it’s something we have only heard of on 997 3.8 engines specifically 2005-2008 models so I’m not sure where the scoring question comes from.

confused

Now I'm no expert, but I reckon a lot of you lot are!! So was I wrong to ask them this, and are they right? Seems a little disrespectful saying "not sure where the scoring question comes from" to me, if as I am led to believe the C4S is susceptible to bore scoring???