Are Speciale That Special

[isaldiri]

boxerTen said:

Ferrari have clearly spent a lot of effort perfecting its handling, and you won't find a better engine in any car (though perhaps a motorbike).

I'd probably be tempted to agree you wouldn't find a better V8 but better engines definitely do exist imo. The F12's for example and that's without going into stuff like the LFA or Mclaren F1.

[Camlet]

isaldiri said:

I'd probably be tempted to agree you wouldn't find a better V8 but better engines definitely do exist imo. The F12's for example and that's without going into stuff like the LFA or Mclaren F1.

Better defined objectively as bhp output per litre:

Speciale 133 bhp
F12 TDF 123 bhp
LFA 115 bhp
Macca 103 bhp

Different engines yes, but not better engines.

Cheers.

[s2000db]

Honda S2000 120bhp and 9K

[isaldiri]

Camlet said:

Better defined objectively as bhp output per litre:

Speciale 133 bhp
F12 TDF 123 bhp
LFA 115 bhp
Macca 103 bhp

Different engines yes, but not better engines.

Cheers.

So you really think that the E46 m3 engine is better than the Mclaren F1 v12 or the 991 gts (or even gt3) has a better engine than the CGT?

[Camlet]

isaldiri said:

Camlet said:

Better defined objectively as bhp output per litre:

Speciale 133 bhp
F12 TDF 123 bhp
LFA 115 bhp
Macca 103 bhp

Different engines yes, but not better engines.

Cheers.

So you really think that the E46 m3 engine is better than the Mclaren F1 v12 or the 991 gts (or even gt3) has a better engine than the CGT?

The only thing I think is the Speciale's NA V8 is a brilliant piece of engineering. You haven't stated how you define a "better" NA engine. For me it's something rational like bhp output per litre (that's usable in the real world). You may have a different criterion, that's absolutely fine. You just haven't defined what it is.

[isaldiri]

Camlet said:

The only thing I think is the Speciale's NA V8 is a brilliant piece of engineering. You haven't stated how you define a "better" NA engine. For me it's something rational like bhp output per litre (that's usable in the real world). You may have a different criterion, that's absolutely fine. You just haven't defined what it is.

I fully agree that the speciale's powertrain is absolutely brilliant. It's pretty amazing that Ferrari have made that engine more or less on par with that of the 918 spyder which is a total no expense spared unit that Porsche threw everything into for their car.

However I couldn't really define 'best' purely in numbers for an engine I have to admit, in the same way it would be doing the speciale a disservice to judge it purely by it's raw performance stats. I just know what I consider the better engine when I drive it

[dang2407]

Bhp per kg would be a better measure of the whole car...

[boxerTen]

I'd like to see the V12 worked a bit harder. In the F12, and the La Ferrari, it has the same bore (94 mm) as found in the Speciale. The V12 has the shorter stroke though. If it ran the same piston speed as the Speciale's V8, everything else being equal (its not) it would produce around 895 bhp at 9700 rpm. In fact I think the V12 currently has some potential for more development whereas the V8 is likely at its limit.

[andrew]

895 @ 9700 would be nice

possibly preferable to all the hybrid gubbins in laferrari

[Chiefly]

dang2407 said:

Bhp per kg would be a better measure of the whole car...

For me, not really, I'd prefer if Ferrari kept a certain level of luxury and comfort.

[Camlet]

dang2407 said:

Bhp per kg would be a better measure of the whole car...

Correct, but RamboLambo said the reputation of Speciale's V8 NA engine was "over-hyped". So the discussion had moved slightly to the discussion of the engine itself and not the whole.

The whole - as it happens - is fine by me

[mwstewart]

The Speciale engine is a masterpiece. I've been studying it as part of a project to rebuild my F430 engine to a similar spec. Some engineering details:

- The inlet valves save 7 grams each
- The solid tappets save 15.7 grams each

0.75kg of reciprocal mass saved from the valvetrain is incredible on an already hugely responsive F136 N/A engine, but the crank also saves an additional 4.3kg!

It's right up there for a road engine with cams.

[Chiefly]

s2000db said:

Honda S2000 120bhp and 9K

Given it's age impressive, but it is easier to achieve that ratio with a smaller engine

[boxerTen]

Chiefly said:

s2000db said:

Honda S2000 120bhp and 9K

Given it's age impressive, but it is easier to achieve that ratio with a smaller engine

True. One should expect a 4% better bhp/litre figure from the S2000's 499 cc cylinders versus the 562 cc cylinders of the 458.

My benchmark engine comes from BMW's S1000RR. A 999 cc inline four producing 199 bhp at 13,500 rpm, so 200 bhp/litre near enough.

If one changed the cylinder size, adjusted the specific power output accordingly, one could have a 2 litre inline four producing 315 bhp at 10,700 rpm, a 4.5 litre V8 producing 680 bhp at 10,300 rpm, or a V12 of 6262 cc capacity producing 975 bhp at 10,550 rpm.

[Chiefly]

boxerTen said:

My benchmark engine comes from BMW's S1000RR. A 999 cc inline four producing 199 bhp at 13,500 rpm, so 200 bhp/litre near enough.
If one changed the cylinder size, adjusted the specific power output accordingly, one could have a 2 litre inline four producing 315 bhp at 10,700 rpm, a 4.5 litre V8 producing 680 bhp at 10,300 rpm, or a V12 of 6262 cc capacity producing 975 bhp at 10,550 rpm.

..And a curved crank, aerated block and a sense of wonder about linear scaling and factory warranties

[Juno]

Well Spring is almost upon us so what does it hold for what is surely one of the most epic of modern times Ferrari's. There are certainly some great examples now at sub 300k which have been around since the middle of last year,this one with just 2000 miles looks as new.

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/f...

Still too much for me to pull the trigger with the fear that if you wanted to sell it could take a year or more.

Would love one!!!

Any thoughts?

Edited by Juno on Saturday 18th March 11:38

[MingtheMerciless]

I think I would in fact somehow just do it, but I live in Ireland so add €300k in tax on top and it's a no brainer.

[Yipper]

Really struggle with the 458 Speciale pricing. It is slower than a Gallardo Superleggera round a track and slower than a 650 S in a straight line. It's not really that special. Other than a cool stripe.

[Juno]

Yipper said:

Really struggle with the 458 Speciale pricing. It is slower than a Gallardo Superleggera round a track and slower than a 650 S in a straight line. It's not really that special. Other than a cool stripe.

That would be an concern, expected better than that !

[griff7]

Juno said:

Yipper said:

Really struggle with the 458 Speciale pricing. It is slower than a Gallardo Superleggera round a track and slower than a 650 S in a straight line. It's not really that special. Other than a cool stripe.

That would be an concern, expected better than that !

The Superleggera was 10 seconds slower around the ring than a normal 458 and was a typical understeer 4 wheel Lambo.Still an epic car in its own right but not on the same level as the Speciale in terms of feedback and balance.Straight line performance in all these cars is pretty amazing but if thats all thats important then each to their own.

The Speciale is more than just a cool stripe !