Speciale Levels.
Discussion
SL550M said:
More than a little bit excited about the upcoming F12M. Might have to sell the 599 and a kidney. Seriously, though, what's the consensus on pricing, including 'sensible' extras? Must be a great buy, no? The last n/a V12 from Ferrari. That's quite something.
The M, perhaps to be called the Monza or Daytona (possibly SuperFast after the early 60s V12), is going to be a superb final hurrah to the NA Ferrari V12. I would expect a properly optioned M to be in the early 300s. A loaded TDF was around 400. Go via TM and easily add another 50. Regarding a "great buy", yes certainly based the likely outputs. The experience will be exceptional. If you mean a "great buy" in terms of investment, that will be much less certain. However residuals will be robust 
Camlet said:
MDL111 said:
Slarti650 said:
I came close to buying one a few weeks ago. I went away and really thought about it and concluded it would be a step down from my 650s spider for all kinds of reasons and I'd be paying over the odds for the 'privilege'. At that price point I'm interested to see what the next F12 looks like..
6.5L 800hp, 4-wheel steering, faster shifts, 4 rear lights, more aggressive front that F12, updated interior but still without the big Lasso screen in the middle. Can't remember the rest. Sold out in the U.K. - all according to other peoples' posts after the presentation, no first hand info Edit: I might well be wrong there though as I don't buy in the UK (so don't pay as much attention), but seem to remember multiple statements along these lines on FChat
Given how eager people are to buy cars nowadays and with all the last standalone V12 hype, it would not entirely surprise me
Edited by MDL111 on Saturday 11th February 16:49
Slarti650 said:
I came close to buying one a few weeks ago. I went away and really thought about it and concluded it would be a step down from my 650s spider for all kinds of reasons and I'd be paying over the odds for the 'privilege'. At that price point I'm interested to see what the next F12 looks like..
Wouldn't argue with that. Probably looking at an extra £150k as well. MadnessSL550M said:
More than a little bit excited about the upcoming F12M. Might have to sell the 599 and a kidney. Seriously, though, what's the consensus on pricing, including 'sensible' extras? Must be a great buy, no? The last n/a V12 from Ferrari. That's quite something.
Has Ferrari said anything about phasing out the N/A V12 or is it just rumours so far?boxerTen said:
SL550M said:
More than a little bit excited about the upcoming F12M. Might have to sell the 599 and a kidney. Seriously, though, what's the consensus on pricing, including 'sensible' extras? Must be a great buy, no? The last n/a V12 from Ferrari. That's quite something.
Has Ferrari said anything about phasing out the N/A V12 or is it just rumours so far?So it might be the last V12 without any other systems just as the GT3 might be the last something or other - both not limited, but both already with long lists in place.
My take on pricing is - a little more than a F12 - don't think the jump from FF to GTC4 was that significant.
RamboLambo said:
Slarti650 said:
I came close to buying one a few weeks ago. I went away and really thought about it and concluded it would be a step down from my 650s spider for all kinds of reasons and I'd be paying over the odds for the 'privilege'. At that price point I'm interested to see what the next F12 looks like..
Wouldn't argue with that. Probably looking at an extra £150k as well. MadnessI admire your loyalty Rambo but I can surmise you aren't a Financial trader by profession. And you are going to go hoarse trying to convince people you are right and the market is wrong!
The market has spoken and whether you like it or not the market values the 458 speciale over the 650s and I suspect always will, because the 675LT is the definitive version of the 650s. That's why the spread is £150k+ to the 650s spider. That's the version the market wants. You can bang on about value but it's irrelevant. You have to put your self in the perspective of the person where these cars end up if they truly become investment classics. And that's in the hands of collectors whose net worth is a number they don't even need to bother remembering. And they never want 2nd best. And as good as the 650s is it's 2nd best. If that series does become a collectors classic the spread will only widen. And you will get more hoarse!
WDISMYL said:
"Madness"....?
I admire your loyalty Rambo but I can surmise you aren't a Financial trader by profession. And you are going to go hoarse trying to convince people you are right and the market is wrong!
The market has spoken and whether you like it or not the market values the 458 speciale over the 650s and I suspect always will, because the 675LT is the definitive version of the 650s. That's why the spread is £150k+ to the 650s spider. That's the version the market wants. You can bang on about value but it's irrelevant. You have to put your self in the perspective of the person where these cars end up if they truly become investment classics. And that's in the hands of collectors whose net worth is a number they don't even need to bother remembering. And they never want 2nd best. And as good as the 650s is it's 2nd best. If that series does become a collectors classic the spread will only widen. And you will get more hoarse!
2 different cars and whether you think 650S or 458 Speciale is "best" I think it is mad that there is £150k or 100% price difference between them.I admire your loyalty Rambo but I can surmise you aren't a Financial trader by profession. And you are going to go hoarse trying to convince people you are right and the market is wrong!
The market has spoken and whether you like it or not the market values the 458 speciale over the 650s and I suspect always will, because the 675LT is the definitive version of the 650s. That's why the spread is £150k+ to the 650s spider. That's the version the market wants. You can bang on about value but it's irrelevant. You have to put your self in the perspective of the person where these cars end up if they truly become investment classics. And that's in the hands of collectors whose net worth is a number they don't even need to bother remembering. And they never want 2nd best. And as good as the 650s is it's 2nd best. If that series does become a collectors classic the spread will only widen. And you will get more hoarse!
Of course a special ( NOT limited ) edition Ferrari will be worth more than a regular McLaren at this stage but TBH the production volumes are nearly the same so when the McLaren brand gets more established and the increasing demand increases further still who knows what a 650S will be worth relative to a 458 Speciale in the future. It may take 10 years it may take 20 but even Ferrari and Lamborghini had to start somewhere. Whats for sure is their brands did not grow at the same rate as McLaren is currently
The true comparison is not 650S but 675LT and they are advertised at similar prices which I think both will soften.
I would like to add a 458 Speciale and no doubt will in the future when the "price is right !, Come on down"
Camlet said:
SL550M said:
More than a little bit excited about the upcoming F12M. Might have to sell the 599 and a kidney. Seriously, though, what's the consensus on pricing, including 'sensible' extras? Must be a great buy, no? The last n/a V12 from Ferrari. That's quite something.
The M, perhaps to be called the Monza or Daytona (possibly SuperFast after the early 60s V12), is going to be a superb final hurrah to the NA Ferrari V12. I would expect a properly optioned M to be in the early 300s. A loaded TDF was around 400. Go via TM and easily add another 50. Regarding a "great buy", yes certainly based the likely outputs. The experience will be exceptional. If you mean a "great buy" in terms of investment, that will be much less certain. However residuals will be robust 
It seems as if people like the Speciale as it is the last normally aspirated v8. Is that mainly because of the sound vs a turbo? Or do people think it is a better car vs a 488? If so, why?
If the 488 replacement is a hybrid will it have a normally aspirated engine? The LaF is a hybrid/normally aspirated and that sounds fantastic, so we have an idea of what is possible.
Where does that leave the Speciale, as it is very likely the hybrid will sound great and be the latest, greatest, fastest etc.
Interested in everyones thoughts on this.
If the 488 replacement is a hybrid will it have a normally aspirated engine? The LaF is a hybrid/normally aspirated and that sounds fantastic, so we have an idea of what is possible.
Where does that leave the Speciale, as it is very likely the hybrid will sound great and be the latest, greatest, fastest etc.
Interested in everyones thoughts on this.
dbsupercar said:
It seems as if people like the Speciale as it is the last normally aspirated v8. Is that mainly because of the sound vs a turbo? Or do people think it is a better car vs a 488? If so, why?
If the 488 replacement is a hybrid will it have a normally aspirated engine? The LaF is a hybrid/normally aspirated and that sounds fantastic, so we have an idea of what is possible.
Where does that leave the Speciale, as it is very likely the hybrid will sound great and be the latest, greatest, fastest etc.
Interested in everyones thoughts on this.
Lets just say "the last of the N/A V8's" is having a purple patch off the back of all the hype.If the 488 replacement is a hybrid will it have a normally aspirated engine? The LaF is a hybrid/normally aspirated and that sounds fantastic, so we have an idea of what is possible.
Where does that leave the Speciale, as it is very likely the hybrid will sound great and be the latest, greatest, fastest etc.
Interested in everyones thoughts on this.
Move it on a few years as turbo and hybrid cars develop at a pace and dare I say it they may go into a "old hat" phase.
Not that, that in itself is a bad thing but I just wouldn't want to pay top dollar at the peak of the hype only to cash in at the backlash
dbsupercar said:
It seems as if people like the Speciale as it is the last normally aspirated v8. Is that mainly because of the sound vs a turbo? Or do people think it is a better car vs a 488? If so, why?
If the 488 replacement is a hybrid will it have a normally aspirated engine? The LaF is a hybrid/normally aspirated and that sounds fantastic, so we have an idea of what is possible.
A naturally aspirated engine is a sharper tool than a turboed unit. Sharper throttle response, and more linear power delivery, make it a better engine for a driver's car.If the 488 replacement is a hybrid will it have a normally aspirated engine? The LaF is a hybrid/normally aspirated and that sounds fantastic, so we have an idea of what is possible.
On the 488. It restricts its power in the lower gears. I'd want to circumvent that - presuming the drive train can handle it.
Its true you can torque fill the lag of a turbo engine with electric motors. But its better to use a properly sized n/a unit to begin with. So we drop the turbos, and their heat issues, and the intercoolers and plumbing, and the attendant packaging problems. The electric motors go, the batteries too. We save lets say 300 kg!, a bucket of money, and gain a load of reliability to boot. Then we enlarge our V12 to 9 litres and 1000 bhp. Simples.
There is something to be said for the purity of a large N/A engine too. All those horses coming from a bespoke engine conceived and engineered to produce all of them.
You can strap a turbo onto any engine and make it produce more power, but that somewhat devalues the engineering of the engine itself, as if it needs this generic part that is shared among thousands of other cars to realise its full potential - when a N/A engine has to do it all on its own without any tricks or bolt-ons.
I'll admit some bias too because a 458 on chat is bliss
You can strap a turbo onto any engine and make it produce more power, but that somewhat devalues the engineering of the engine itself, as if it needs this generic part that is shared among thousands of other cars to realise its full potential - when a N/A engine has to do it all on its own without any tricks or bolt-ons.
I'll admit some bias too because a 458 on chat is bliss
Edited by Durzel on Monday 13th February 09:38
boxerTen said:
A naturally aspirated engine is a sharper tool than a turboed unit. Sharper throttle response, and more linear power delivery, make it a better engine for a driver's car.
On the 488. It restricts its power in the lower gears. I'd want to circumvent that - presuming the drive train can handle it.
Have you driven a 488, don't think you would want to circumvent that, the linear power delivery is perfect, you are already using one higher gear than a N/A 458 on chicane exit. Drive one and seeOn the 488. It restricts its power in the lower gears. I'd want to circumvent that - presuming the drive train can handle it.
My friends who went on the Pilota course said the performance of the 488 was incredible and no-one mentioned any lag or power gaps just amazing performance and handling/braking. Perhaps if you are a very experienced driver it may be different.
I think by most objective measures the 488 is better (ie faster, better brakes, upgraded electronics etc) but the Speciale still seems to be the one....it would be good to hear from anyone who has driven both - and perhaps a LaF to give the hybrid viewpoint.
I think by most objective measures the 488 is better (ie faster, better brakes, upgraded electronics etc) but the Speciale still seems to be the one....it would be good to hear from anyone who has driven both - and perhaps a LaF to give the hybrid viewpoint.
I went on the Pilota course and I agree with the above in relation to the 488 around Fiorano. It is an absolutely amazing car. In situations where I know I would have been scrambling for oppo in my 458, and a bit slower, it was just fuss free. I also by the way thought the F12 was mind blowing, but much easier to get in to trouble with.
The bit in Fiorano where you have to back off on the main straight for a few seconds is the equivalent of premature ejaculation (I am told) in terms of frustration. I don't know what your end of straight speed in the 488 would be without it but it would be a very big number indeed, such is the grunt of that car.
Mind you I haven't driven a Speciale.
The bit in Fiorano where you have to back off on the main straight for a few seconds is the equivalent of premature ejaculation (I am told) in terms of frustration. I don't know what your end of straight speed in the 488 would be without it but it would be a very big number indeed, such is the grunt of that car.
Mind you I haven't driven a Speciale.
When it comes to collectibility it's not down to what is better (whatever 'better' is?).
If it were then no one would collect vintage cars. I have one, they're awful, and scary, to drive. It's slow relative to modern cars (actually it's slow relative to modern bicycles), doesn't always start, the brakes are, well, they're there, I can't say they do much, the steering is vague in the extreme, it has no heater, or radio, or seat belts, or side windows, nor a 4th gear, or very much else.
The MOT guys piss themselves laughing every year. It doesn't even need an MOT but it's such good fun watching them do it, I take it anyway.
It's still worth around 40 times more than it's RRP in 1930 and I love it because it's something that will never be built again, it's fun and it's great to drive it and then drive a modern car and marvel at how f*cking awful horses must've been such that the vintage car was a step up. To be fair I live in the country and on a weekly basis encounter said beasts and they look like 4 legged, maniacal, murderous b
ds to me so I get why they switched to cars, however awful.
I could buy a modern saloon to replace it and keep the change and by all measurements except how I feel about it, it would be better than the vintage car.
But it still wouldn't be.
So how much 'better' a 488 may or may not be is as irrelevant to how collectible a Speciale is to how much 'better' a 720 McLaren will be than a McLaren F1, or how a Focus RS would be 'better' than a Mk1 Escort RS BDA. It's just not the point.
Email is 'better' than a Penny Black but collectors definitely value the Penny Black more.
Things are collectible, and subsequently of value, because "I want one" and when "I" exists, there is invariably "We" and the value of something is directly comparable to the number of items divided by the number of "we".
£ = Item / we
If it were then no one would collect vintage cars. I have one, they're awful, and scary, to drive. It's slow relative to modern cars (actually it's slow relative to modern bicycles), doesn't always start, the brakes are, well, they're there, I can't say they do much, the steering is vague in the extreme, it has no heater, or radio, or seat belts, or side windows, nor a 4th gear, or very much else.
The MOT guys piss themselves laughing every year. It doesn't even need an MOT but it's such good fun watching them do it, I take it anyway.
It's still worth around 40 times more than it's RRP in 1930 and I love it because it's something that will never be built again, it's fun and it's great to drive it and then drive a modern car and marvel at how f*cking awful horses must've been such that the vintage car was a step up. To be fair I live in the country and on a weekly basis encounter said beasts and they look like 4 legged, maniacal, murderous b
ds to me so I get why they switched to cars, however awful. I could buy a modern saloon to replace it and keep the change and by all measurements except how I feel about it, it would be better than the vintage car.
But it still wouldn't be.
So how much 'better' a 488 may or may not be is as irrelevant to how collectible a Speciale is to how much 'better' a 720 McLaren will be than a McLaren F1, or how a Focus RS would be 'better' than a Mk1 Escort RS BDA. It's just not the point.
Email is 'better' than a Penny Black but collectors definitely value the Penny Black more.
Things are collectible, and subsequently of value, because "I want one" and when "I" exists, there is invariably "We" and the value of something is directly comparable to the number of items divided by the number of "we".
£ = Item / we
Edited by _Leg_ on Monday 13th February 19:52
Both 488 and 650s have more grunt than a speciale.
Whilst an epic car in its own right the main hysteria surrounding 458 speciale at the moment is the fact its the last N/a V8 Ferrari.
Lets not forget though it was not a limited edition car and there are a lot of cars relatively speaking compared to 430 Scuderia and 360 CS.
As an ex 430 Scuderia owner I still think this is where the value currently lies out of the 3.
Whilst an epic car in its own right the main hysteria surrounding 458 speciale at the moment is the fact its the last N/a V8 Ferrari.
Lets not forget though it was not a limited edition car and there are a lot of cars relatively speaking compared to 430 Scuderia and 360 CS.
As an ex 430 Scuderia owner I still think this is where the value currently lies out of the 3.
d16rr said:
Have you driven a 488, don't think you would want to circumvent that, the linear power delivery is perfect, you are already using one higher gear than a N/A 458 on chicane exit. Drive one and see
I'm sure the linear power delivery is perfect! But its linear and perfect because Ferrari have trimmed the torque curve in the lower gears! So we have less power, but its more linear. When did that become a good idea? I'd rather have the full fat engine. It would have quite a different character to n/a Ferrari engines - and therein lies the real reason for the torque trimming.Having driven both vehicles I'd say the 488 engine is good, but definitely not better. It is certainly very fast and also quite entertaining but it is just missing that final tenth of responsiveness that the Speciale engine has. Considering these cars don't need to be any faster 99% of the time, I'd take the more enjoyable engine over the faster one in this case.
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