Lots of 599 GTOs for sale - why?
Discussion
JCFF said:
I think the market for 599 GTO's is far less fragile than people think..a Ferrari with a GTO badge is ALWAYS going to command a big premium, it is a serious bit of Ferrari history and although there are a few on the market i think prices will hold. In a few years time i wouldn't be surprised if clean ones are going for >£1 mil. The Gto is also a lot more beautiful than a TDF in my opinion and whereas the tdf is a road going version of the f12, the gto is a road going version of the 599XX...much cooler.
The 599 GTO is a spectular car and some of it is from the XX. It's massively harder core than the GTB. But to call the tdf just a road road-going version of the F12 (whatever you actually mean as road-going) you couldn't be more wrong. Watch Chris Harris's video of him testing the tdf. He calls it insane. It is. hondansx said:
Many people thought it was sacrilege to use the GTO moniker given it was not built for homologation. I'd say it's a bit cheeky to write off the TDF with that in mind.
Quite. Ironic too the 250 GTO wasn't properly homologated either. From Mike Gulett's interesting piece:
"There was a big controversy in the early 1960s about the inability (or refusal) of Ferrari to homologate the 250 GTO. The Cobra and Corvette teams were quite upset because they were losing races to the GTO. It is a complicated subject that involves the FIA changing the rules and other intrigue. But bascically a manufacturer was required to produce 100 examples of a GT race car within 12 months. Ferrari only made 39 GTOs in total, well short of the 100 required. Somehow they got away with it, and as I said it is a complicated story. The “O” in GTO stands for “omologato”, Italian for homologated. Was Enzo Ferrari trying to fool everyone with a name, like a magician using mis-direction?
I don't think today people quibble whether a 250 GTO should be called GTO. It is a GTO because Ferrari called it a GTO. Likewise the 599 GTO.
I try to understand what people see in a GTO but I struggle.. i had a passenger ride in one in and around the 'ring last year.. and I couldn't help but thinking that it was just way too heavy and soft for a Omologata..
Yes it sounds and looks beautiful but even on a flowing track like the 'ring it felt grossly out of place. It didnt feel race-car at all IMHO. Of course I was only a passenger but I tend to agree with those that argue that the GTO suffix was a step just a bit too far.. Speciale/Scuderia/Modificata whatever they could have called it.. but GTO doesn't work, it's just not a race car at all. Far too heavy for that. Pitch and roll were comical when compared to my former GT3 or the LaF that was with us (ok fine the LaF shouldn't be in the same category let alone same universe as the rest but still).
Yes it sounds and looks beautiful but even on a flowing track like the 'ring it felt grossly out of place. It didnt feel race-car at all IMHO. Of course I was only a passenger but I tend to agree with those that argue that the GTO suffix was a step just a bit too far.. Speciale/Scuderia/Modificata whatever they could have called it.. but GTO doesn't work, it's just not a race car at all. Far too heavy for that. Pitch and roll were comical when compared to my former GT3 or the LaF that was with us (ok fine the LaF shouldn't be in the same category let alone same universe as the rest but still).
rosino said:
I try to understand what people see in a GTO but I struggle.. i had a passenger ride in one in and around the 'ring last year.. and I couldn't help but thinking that it was just way too heavy and soft for a Omologata..
Yes it sounds and looks beautiful but even on a flowing track like the 'ring it felt grossly out of place. It didnt feel race-car at all IMHO. Of course I was only a passenger but I tend to agree with those that argue that the GTO suffix was a step just a bit too far.. Speciale/Scuderia/Modificata whatever they could have called it.. but GTO doesn't work, it's just not a race car at all. Far too heavy for that. Pitch and roll were comical when compared to my former GT3 or the LaF that was with us (ok fine the LaF shouldn't be in the same category let alone same universe as the rest but still).
I guess the problem is where you set the benchmark? A race car? The race car is a 599 XX. Take the 288 GTO, this as a track car was easily eclipsed by the F40. Yes it sounds and looks beautiful but even on a flowing track like the 'ring it felt grossly out of place. It didnt feel race-car at all IMHO. Of course I was only a passenger but I tend to agree with those that argue that the GTO suffix was a step just a bit too far.. Speciale/Scuderia/Modificata whatever they could have called it.. but GTO doesn't work, it's just not a race car at all. Far too heavy for that. Pitch and roll were comical when compared to my former GT3 or the LaF that was with us (ok fine the LaF shouldn't be in the same category let alone same universe as the rest but still).
Anyway, Chris Harris thought the 599 GTO mighty fast round a track.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRXL5_Ac05s
Camlet said:
I guess the problem is where you set the benchmark? A race car? The race car is a 599 XX. Take the 288 GTO, this as a track car was easily eclipsed by the F40.
Both the 250 GTO and the 288 GTO were intended for racing. The latter didn't race but its engine size was chosen so that under the Group B racing regs at the time, the 1.4 factor applied to turbocharged engines resulted in a 4 litre capacity. Its weight was aimed at the 1100 kg minimum specified by the regs. AFAIK the 599 GTO wasn't built as a homologation special for any particular racing series, so its more of a 'TdF' in my IMHO.Still got to be the most overpriced Ferari GTO ever. GTO in this case just a wonky badge
I see them advertised and think why would a driver want one of these at those prices rather than something better?
It's just a pastiche. And one that will not be seen in later years as being a hidden gem, rather Ferrari playing the market.
Is the F12, the standard one, better than this?
I see them advertised and think why would a driver want one of these at those prices rather than something better?
It's just a pastiche. And one that will not be seen in later years as being a hidden gem, rather Ferrari playing the market.
Is the F12, the standard one, better than this?
Edited by Gandahar on Wednesday 19th October 14:57
Gandahar said:
Still got to be the most overpriced Ferari GTO ever. GTO in this case just a wonky badge
I see them advertised and think why would a driver want one of these at those prices rather than something better?
It's just a pastiche. And one that will not be seen in later years as being a hidden gem, rather Ferrari playing the market.
Is the F12, the standard one, better than this?
Please define 'better'? Driving experience, V12 sound, performance, looks, badge, heritage, feeling? I've been through quite a few cars and it is a tough one to replace. I see them advertised and think why would a driver want one of these at those prices rather than something better?
It's just a pastiche. And one that will not be seen in later years as being a hidden gem, rather Ferrari playing the market.
Is the F12, the standard one, better than this?
Edited by Gandahar on Wednesday 19th October 14:57
There tends to be more sanity and experience of the 599 GTO on the Ferrari chat forum:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/612-599/
On it's release the 599 GTO was highly praised particularly by people who can drive properly. It isn't a pussy cat, it's no 458 or Bentley Continental GT with four wheel drive. It's a highly tuned V12 that on cold tyres and in dry conditions will wheel spin at 80mph at peak RPM.
The nahsayers tend to be:
- People that have never driven one
- The press that soon realised they couldn't just go full throttle in the dry let alone the wet without a near death experience. Dented ego?
- Those that after the release sold the car for a quick profit
- A couple of claims of poor brakes but we've no idea what condition the brakes were in before they arrived at the track – Generally, no mention of it with most owners or the reviews.
- The GTO badge. It is the younger brother of the 599 XX receiving a number of developments from it, a race car in every way but without a series to race in and one that has the development luxury of a blank sheet of paper. I'm quite happy for the 'O' controversy as sometimes things have to move on... Of course, if the owners of the 599XX cars were to create their own race series perhaps that will throw things.
Not sure why the F12 keeps being brought up, totally different and newer car and one that would have also benefited from the development programme much later down the line.
Further details of the 599 GTO below and are perhaps worth a read
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Have fun
Chiefly said:
Gandahar said:
Still got to be the most overpriced Ferari GTO ever. GTO in this case just a wonky badge
I see them advertised and think why would a driver want one of these at those prices rather than something better?
It's just a pastiche. And one that will not be seen in later years as being a hidden gem, rather Ferrari playing the market.
Is the F12, the standard one, better than this?
Please define 'better'? Driving experience, V12 sound, performance, looks, badge, heritage, feeling? I've been through quite a few cars and it is a tough one to replace. I see them advertised and think why would a driver want one of these at those prices rather than something better?
It's just a pastiche. And one that will not be seen in later years as being a hidden gem, rather Ferrari playing the market.
Is the F12, the standard one, better than this?
Edited by Gandahar on Wednesday 19th October 14:57
There tends to be more sanity and experience of the 599 GTO on the Ferrari chat forum:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/612-599/
On it's release the 599 GTO was highly praised particularly by people who can drive properly. It isn't a pussy cat, it's no 458 or Bentley Continental GT with four wheel drive. It's a highly tuned V12 that on cold tyres and in dry conditions will wheel spin at 80mph at peak RPM.
The nahsayers tend to be:
- People that have never driven one
- The press that soon realised they couldn't just go full throttle in the dry let alone the wet without a near death experience. Dented ego?
- Those that after the release sold the car for a quick profit
- A couple of claims of poor brakes but we've no idea what condition the brakes were in before they arrived at the track – Generally, no mention of it with most owners or the reviews.
- The GTO badge. It is the younger brother of the 599 XX receiving a number of developments from it, a race car in every way but without a series to race in and one that has the development luxury of a blank sheet of paper. I'm quite happy for the 'O' controversy as sometimes things have to move on... Of course, if the owners of the 599XX cars were to create their own race series perhaps that will throw things.
Not sure why the F12 keeps being brought up, totally different and newer car and one that would have also benefited from the development programme much later down the line.
Further details of the 599 GTO below and are perhaps worth a read
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Have fun
Gandahar said:
Still got to be the most overpriced Ferari GTO ever. GTO in this case just a wonky badge
I see them advertised and think why would a driver want one of these at those prices rather than something better?
It's just a pastiche. And one that will not be seen in later years as being a hidden gem, rather Ferrari playing the market.
Is the F12, the standard one, better than this?
Your first sentence was fine. The last sentence is a 50/50 call. Two very different cars. The rest of your post is the funniest, most complete pile of bI see them advertised and think why would a driver want one of these at those prices rather than something better?
It's just a pastiche. And one that will not be seen in later years as being a hidden gem, rather Ferrari playing the market.
Is the F12, the standard one, better than this?
Edited by Gandahar on Wednesday 19th October 14:57
ks I've read. So when exactly did you drive a 599 GTO recently? Chiefly said:
Gandahar said:
Still got to be the most overpriced Ferari GTO ever. GTO in this case just a wonky badge
I see them advertised and think why would a driver want one of these at those prices rather than something better?
It's just a pastiche. And one that will not be seen in later years as being a hidden gem, rather Ferrari playing the market.
Is the F12, the standard one, better than this?
Please define 'better'? Driving experience, V12 sound, performance, looks, badge, heritage, feeling? I've been through quite a few cars and it is a tough one to replace. I see them advertised and think why would a driver want one of these at those prices rather than something better?
It's just a pastiche. And one that will not be seen in later years as being a hidden gem, rather Ferrari playing the market.
Is the F12, the standard one, better than this?
Edited by Gandahar on Wednesday 19th October 14:57
There tends to be more sanity and experience of the 599 GTO on the Ferrari chat forum:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/612-599/
On it's release the 599 GTO was highly praised particularly by people who can drive properly. It isn't a pussy cat, it's no 458 or Bentley Continental GT with four wheel drive. It's a highly tuned V12 that on cold tyres and in dry conditions will wheel spin at 80mph at peak RPM.
The nahsayers tend to be:
- People that have never driven one
- The press that soon realised they couldn't just go full throttle in the dry let alone the wet without a near death experience. Dented ego?
- Those that after the release sold the car for a quick profit
- A couple of claims of poor brakes but we've no idea what condition the brakes were in before they arrived at the track – Generally, no mention of it with most owners or the reviews.
- The GTO badge. It is the younger brother of the 599 XX receiving a number of developments from it, a race car in every way but without a series to race in and one that has the development luxury of a blank sheet of paper. I'm quite happy for the 'O' controversy as sometimes things have to move on... Of course, if the owners of the 599XX cars were to create their own race series perhaps that will throw things.
Not sure why the F12 keeps being brought up, totally different and newer car and one that would have also benefited from the development programme much later down the line.
Further details of the 599 GTO below and are perhaps worth a read
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Have fun
Times change.
Edited by Gandahar on Thursday 20th October 12:55
Camlet said:
Gandahar said:
Still got to be the most overpriced Ferari GTO ever. GTO in this case just a wonky badge
I see them advertised and think why would a driver want one of these at those prices rather than something better?
It's just a pastiche. And one that will not be seen in later years as being a hidden gem, rather Ferrari playing the market.
Is the F12, the standard one, better than this?
Your first sentence was fine. The last sentence is a 50/50 call. Two very different cars. The rest of your post is the funniest, most complete pile of bI see them advertised and think why would a driver want one of these at those prices rather than something better?
It's just a pastiche. And one that will not be seen in later years as being a hidden gem, rather Ferrari playing the market.
Is the F12, the standard one, better than this?
Edited by Gandahar on Wednesday 19th October 14:57
ks I've read. So when exactly did you drive a 599 GTO recently? The fact that there are people questioning this car from a neutral viewpoint of not owning one. Everyone tends to be favourable to the car they own or have owned.
Also, I am sure that is not the most complete pile of boll ocks you've read on here...
Maybe 2nd biggest...
PS Now I would like a 488 GTO, grandson of the 288GTO ... cool. Ferrari missing a trick here.
Gandahar said:
Camlet said:
Gandahar said:
Still got to be the most overpriced Ferari GTO ever. GTO in this case just a wonky badge
I see them advertised and think why would a driver want one of these at those prices rather than something better?
It's just a pastiche. And one that will not be seen in later years as being a hidden gem, rather Ferrari playing the market.
Is the F12, the standard one, better than this?
Your first sentence was fine. The last sentence is a 50/50 call. Two very different cars. The rest of your post is the funniest, most complete pile of bI see them advertised and think why would a driver want one of these at those prices rather than something better?
It's just a pastiche. And one that will not be seen in later years as being a hidden gem, rather Ferrari playing the market.
Is the F12, the standard one, better than this?
Edited by Gandahar on Wednesday 19th October 14:57
ks I've read. So when exactly did you drive a 599 GTO recently? The fact that there are people questioning this car from a neutral viewpoint of not owning one. Everyone tends to be favourable to the car they own or have owned.
Also, I am sure that is not the most complete pile of boll ocks you've read on here...
Maybe 2nd biggest...
PS Now I would like a 488 GTO, grandson of the 288GTO ... cool. Ferrari missing a trick here.
for me the funny thing with the GTO is still that all those dealers who when I wanted to sell mine said "its just a 599 with a badge and an exhaust", not worth more than £25,000 over a 599
Now I read the adverts from the same dealers and they make it sound like the greatest car of the last 10 years
Don't get me wrong it is a good car and I did almost 10,000 miles in mine driving to work most days
but what I can't understand is the relative value which pitches a RHD 599GTO only 100k bellow an F40
The F40 is in a different league and is far more special
.... but is the F40 cheap or the GTO expensive?
Now I read the adverts from the same dealers and they make it sound like the greatest car of the last 10 years
Don't get me wrong it is a good car and I did almost 10,000 miles in mine driving to work most days
but what I can't understand is the relative value which pitches a RHD 599GTO only 100k bellow an F40
The F40 is in a different league and is far more special
.... but is the F40 cheap or the GTO expensive?
traxx said:
for me the funny thing with the GTO is still that all those dealers who when I wanted to sell mine said "its just a 599 with a badge and an exhaust", not worth more than £25,000 over a 599
Now I read the adverts from the same dealers and they make it sound like the greatest car of the last 10 years
Don't get me wrong it is a good car and I did almost 10,000 miles in mine driving to work most days
but what I can't understand is the relative value which pitches a RHD 599GTO only 100k bellow an F40
The F40 is in a different league and is far more special
.... but is the F40 cheap or the GTO expensive?
the GTO is expensive (great cats but worth ~£400k imo)Now I read the adverts from the same dealers and they make it sound like the greatest car of the last 10 years
Don't get me wrong it is a good car and I did almost 10,000 miles in mine driving to work most days
but what I can't understand is the relative value which pitches a RHD 599GTO only 100k bellow an F40
The F40 is in a different league and is far more special
.... but is the F40 cheap or the GTO expensive?
how many current owners would buy them @ £800k...
WCZ said:
traxx said:
for me the funny thing with the GTO is still that all those dealers who when I wanted to sell mine said "its just a 599 with a badge and an exhaust", not worth more than £25,000 over a 599
Now I read the adverts from the same dealers and they make it sound like the greatest car of the last 10 years
Don't get me wrong it is a good car and I did almost 10,000 miles in mine driving to work most days
but what I can't understand is the relative value which pitches a RHD 599GTO only 100k bellow an F40
The F40 is in a different league and is far more special
.... but is the F40 cheap or the GTO expensive?
the GTO is expensive (great cats but worth ~£400k imo)Now I read the adverts from the same dealers and they make it sound like the greatest car of the last 10 years
Don't get me wrong it is a good car and I did almost 10,000 miles in mine driving to work most days
but what I can't understand is the relative value which pitches a RHD 599GTO only 100k bellow an F40
The F40 is in a different league and is far more special
.... but is the F40 cheap or the GTO expensive?
how many current owners would buy them @ £800k...
Per another post comparing the GTO's pricing to the F40, the F40 comes in several variations (non cat non adj, non cat adj, cat non adj) and condition/history/mileage vary greatly. Plus I bet there are more F40s in the UK than there are UK RHD 599 GTOs.
Anyway the market is what someone is prepared to pay; I've already been offered by an indie dealer a 100% uplift on my incoming UK TDF, that baby 'aint for sale. But the dealer obviously has a punter who is prepared to pay nearly 1 million GBP for an off-the-boat TDF. Silly.
Edited by Camlet on Friday 21st October 13:05
Camlet said:
Mine cost me 330K new and no I wouldn't pay 800K for a UK RHD one today. But to be honest, I doubt 800K is the going rate. DK has a nice one in a similar spec to mine (5K more miles) at 699K. Given it was listed at 714K for several weeks, it's safe to assume 675K isn't far away. That's a fairer price for a very special limited edition beast.
Per another post comparing the GTO's pricing to the F40, the F40 comes in several variations (non cat non adj, non cat adj, cat non adj) and condition/history/mileage vary greatly. Plus I bet there are more F40s in the UK than there are UK RHD 599 GTOs.
Anyway the market is what someone is prepared to pay; I've already been offered by an indie dealer a 100% uplift on my incoming UK TDF, that baby 'aint for sale. But the dealer obviously has a punter who is prepared to pay nearly 1 million GBP for an off-the-boat TDF. Silly.
Any update on when you'll get the TdF?Per another post comparing the GTO's pricing to the F40, the F40 comes in several variations (non cat non adj, non cat adj, cat non adj) and condition/history/mileage vary greatly. Plus I bet there are more F40s in the UK than there are UK RHD 599 GTOs.
Anyway the market is what someone is prepared to pay; I've already been offered by an indie dealer a 100% uplift on my incoming UK TDF, that baby 'aint for sale. But the dealer obviously has a punter who is prepared to pay nearly 1 million GBP for an off-the-boat TDF. Silly.
Edited by Camlet on Friday 21st October 13:05
And are you a little bit annoyed that Ferrari are putting the same colour scheme on a standard F12 as part of the 70th anniversary editions?
mon the fish said:
Camlet said:
Mine cost me 330K new and no I wouldn't pay 800K for a UK RHD one today. But to be honest, I doubt 800K is the going rate. DK has a nice one in a similar spec to mine (5K more miles) at 699K. Given it was listed at 714K for several weeks, it's safe to assume 675K isn't far away. That's a fairer price for a very special limited edition beast.
Per another post comparing the GTO's pricing to the F40, the F40 comes in several variations (non cat non adj, non cat adj, cat non adj) and condition/history/mileage vary greatly. Plus I bet there are more F40s in the UK than there are UK RHD 599 GTOs.
Anyway the market is what someone is prepared to pay; I've already been offered by an indie dealer a 100% uplift on my incoming UK TDF, that baby 'aint for sale. But the dealer obviously has a punter who is prepared to pay nearly 1 million GBP for an off-the-boat TDF. Silly.
Any update on when you'll get the TdF?Per another post comparing the GTO's pricing to the F40, the F40 comes in several variations (non cat non adj, non cat adj, cat non adj) and condition/history/mileage vary greatly. Plus I bet there are more F40s in the UK than there are UK RHD 599 GTOs.
Anyway the market is what someone is prepared to pay; I've already been offered by an indie dealer a 100% uplift on my incoming UK TDF, that baby 'aint for sale. But the dealer obviously has a punter who is prepared to pay nearly 1 million GBP for an off-the-boat TDF. Silly.
Edited by Camlet on Friday 21st October 13:05
And are you a little bit annoyed that Ferrari are putting the same colour scheme on a standard F12 as part of the 70th anniversary editions?
and wouldn't want number 14 painted on mine anyway. My car is in production now and due for completion mid November. By the time she's shipped over and made ready it'll be early December. I'm then going to have a full car protective film put on her. I'll probably wait until January to pick her up
I do like the GTO, have not driven it though, but also think current valuations are a bit silly. Would you not rather own a Carrera GT at similar money? And when they were new, I think an F50 was not far off in price. I guess the take away is that there are so many amazing cars you can buy with your money nowadays and more choice must be great.
Wonder if any of these will ever drop back into my price range though .... I will then be able to let you guys know where my money went after careful consideration
Until then happy Ferrari still builds 4-seaters - just did Austria to London in my FF in the last two days and last week did Munich to Croatia and back (with dog and a friend plus luggage for a week) - not sure there is a better car in the world for these kinds of trips
Wonder if any of these will ever drop back into my price range though .... I will then be able to let you guys know where my money went after careful consideration
Until then happy Ferrari still builds 4-seaters - just did Austria to London in my FF in the last two days and last week did Munich to Croatia and back (with dog and a friend plus luggage for a week) - not sure there is a better car in the world for these kinds of trips
Gassing Station | Ferrari V12 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff