550 rhd how long until they are £70k

550 rhd how long until they are £70k

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simonr100

Original Poster:

640 posts

116 months

Sunday 29th May 2016
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A few years back I was looking to get my dream car a 550 rhd low mileage in red with a Nero interior, I saw one for £55k but hesitated due to a serious back injury that required surgery.

I have since been watching them increase in price but recently I see they aren't selling and are reducing in price, has the bubble started to burst? How long until they are £70k or less?

I want one and can afford one now(actually I can afford several so it isn't sour grapes)for cash but it seems so many models aren't selling and are being reduced....as this is seen across many models(testarossa, 355, 550, 575 all of which I want to own)I can only hope that the cars go back to being owned by enthusiasts and not speculators/investors.

What are your opinions?

355Chris355

134 posts

112 months

Sunday 29th May 2016
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I'm in a similar position - money to spend but everything looks over-priced. The Hagerty Market Rating has been in a declining trend for 12 months. Auctions are either scraping the low estimate or going unsold (Silverstone auctions are a useful guide). Inflated dealer stock remaining stuck on the market. The writing is on the wall.

Plenty of people on here will still talk the market up. Probably a mixture of vested interests (dealers, speculators etc).

Enjoy your DB9 for now. This is a waiting game for the moment.

johnnyreggae

2,930 posts

159 months

Sunday 29th May 2016
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Why not try a 575 - they are already effectively within your budget

simonr100

Original Poster:

640 posts

116 months

Sunday 29th May 2016
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johnnyreggae said:
Why not try a 575 - they are already effectively within your budget
I want a manual. manual 575's are still to high and are in my opinion overpriced now as well.

cgt2

7,093 posts

187 months

Sunday 29th May 2016
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I sold my 550 for £75k in October 2014. For at least ten years prior they had always hovered between £30k and £45k and there were a lot of ropey examples around at the lower end.

I said on another thread the highest actual value I know being paid for one is just under £120k. Asking prices may be higher but who knows the reality.

They may come back down, they may not.

Great car though and I'd always pick one over a 355, Manual 430 or even Manual 575 (all of which I have had). The Manual 575 actually felt less exciting to me than a 550, mainly because the interior was a bit too bland in comparison.

MDL111

6,895 posts

176 months

Sunday 29th May 2016
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I am not sure if good rhd cars will get that low again (uk prices are a bit insane imo), but why not look at lhd - better cars seating position wise anyway - also if the market collapses or the UK goes belly up, you have a much larger market to sell into. Having said that lhd cars are not really selling at current prices either.
I am now looking at 512TR as I already have a front engined v12 and would like to get a mid engined car (already had a 355) - prices feel toppy but on the flipside if you keep for 10 plus years then all of these cars will probably be ok value wise (if not an investment, but cars are not supposed to be anyway) - just have to stomach the intermediate value loss ... Or never sell, which is kinda my plan

phib

4,464 posts

258 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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I am pretty sure the market will fall a bit but I can't see £70k for a RHD 550. Perhaps £100k in a year or so.

Part of the problem with cars not selling ( especially lhd ones) if many are in really bad condition and have next to no service history as the Europeans just don't bother in the main.

As for 355's I can see good ones (red /creme, manuals staying at high levels)

I know of one 355 manual spider was bought for £130k as it was bought by my neighbour as he always loved mine !! He's just a bit richer than me !!

As ever good cars will sell and bad ones won't

Just imho

Phib

Camlet

1,132 posts

148 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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Simon. Interesting question.

My RHD UK delivered 550 Maranello cost me 125K GBP in 1999. She was my first Ferrari. It was first registered in 1998 had covered 5,000 miles and had one previous owner. The car is in Argento N with black leather. It has a factory installed FHP, Daytona seats and handmade sports exhaust.

By 2002 the market had tanked and she was worth 25,000 GBP trade. I didn't bother selling her, my Ferrari dealer correctly advised against it, which was more to do with his knowledge of how much I enjoyed the car than its potential value. Today she has 26,000 miles on the clock, and has an impeccable FFSH.

I've seen the market go on its uplifting journey since 2013 with a mixture of amusement and concern, the phrase a rising tide applies to a great many models. LHD models have been brought into the UK, some reasonably by enthusiasts priced out of the RHD market, some by late entry speculators who want to ride the uplift.

Going forward you're correct the general market has become softer. The receding tide will leave many models high and dry. But as you suspect, for excellent examples with robust histories you might have to wait a very long time.

Mogul

2,925 posts

222 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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camlet, can you remind us all about the economic environment in 2002 that resulted in you getting a trade bid of £25k for your 4yr old (sub 10k miles?, mint condition?) 550?

The dotcom crash was clearly a factor for some but I don't recall that the UK ever entered a technical recession so £25k does seem rather low given that it sounds like your car would have stood up rather well against the obvious alternative being a brand new 575M which in manual guise would have retailed at £150k and may have been subject to a waiting list.

I do recall seeing prices starting with a '3' around 2008 (generally for leggy cars, in average condition and in unpopular colour schemes) but I cannot imagine that there are many folk out there who were unlucky enough to have let a mint example go for less than £40k...

What's your view on the evolution of prices between 2002 and 2008 and between 2008 and 2014 (when it appeared that there were very few cars available on PH at least and asking prices began to dramatically shoot up).

There's certainly a lot of cars available on PH today and very few posts from new owners so it's clear that there is very little liquidity at the £150k level for 'mint' RHD cars and even with the much bandied about 30% premium/discount for LHD, where are the posts from the guys who have recently paid c.£100k for for a leftie?




Edited by Mogul on Monday 30th May 11:27

SL550M

589 posts

109 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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Mogul said:
camlet, can you remind us all about the economic environment in 2002 that resulted in you getting a trade bid of £25k for your 4yr old (sub 10k miles?, mint condition?) 550?

The dotcom crash was clearly a factor for some but I don't recall that the UK ever entered a technical recession so £25k does seem rather low given that it sounds like your car would have stood up rather well against the obvious alternative being a brand new 575M which in manual guise would have retailed at £150k and may have been subject to a waiting list.

I do recall seeing prices starting with a '3' around 2008 (generally for leggy cars, in average condition and in unpopular colour schemes) but I cannot imagine that there are many folk out there who were unlucky enough to have let a mint example go for less than £40k...

What's your view on the evolution of prices between 2002 and 2008 and between 2008 and 2014 (when it appeared that there were very few cars available on PH at least and asking prices began to dramatically shoot up).

There's certainly a lot of cars available on PH today and very few posts from new owners so it's clear that there is very little liquidity at the £150k level for 'mint' RHD cars and even with the much bandied about 30% premium/discount for LHD, where are the posts from the guys who have recently paid c.£100k for for a leftie?




Edited by Mogul on Monday 30th May 11:27
I'm sorry to recount that I let go of my beautiful 550 Maranello (Grigio with Bordeaux, 28k miles, full Maranello service history) for £42k in early 2011. That was the amount I received on SOR; can't remember exactly what the dealer sold it for. Only high-40s as I recall. Try not to think about it too often!!

Camlet

1,132 posts

148 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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Mogul said:
camlet, can you remind us all about the economic environment in 2002 that resulted in you getting a trade bid of £25k for your 4yr old (sub 10k miles?, mint condition?) 550?

The dotcom crash was clearly a factor for some but I don't recall that the UK ever entered a technical recession so £25k does seem rather low given that it sounds like your car would have stood up rather well against the obvious alternative being a brand new 575M which in manual guise would have retailed at £150k and may have been subject to a waiting list.

I do recall seeing prices starting with a '3' around 2008 (generally for leggy cars, in average condition and in unpopular colour schemes) but I cannot imagine that there are many folk out there who were unlucky enough to have let a mint example go for less than £40k...

What's your view on the evolution of prices between 2002 and 2008 and between 2008 and 2014 (when it appeared that there were very few cars available on PH at least and asking prices began to dramatically shoot up).

There's certainly a lot of cars available on PH today and very few posts from new owners so it's clear that there is very little liquidity at the £150k level for 'mint' RHD cars and even with the much bandied about 30% premium/discount for LHD, where are the posts from the guys who have recently paid c.£100k for for a leftie?




Edited by Mogul on Monday 30th May 11:27
Sure. In 2002 the 550 Maranello was undesirable because it was just a mainstream modern V12 Ferrari with crap residuals. Remember, its OTR price with a few extras was c 165K GBP. That was high, a loaded OTR 599 GTB F1 some ten years after the 550 was launched was "only" a little over 200K GBP. The 599 GTB was a considerable leap from 575 let alone 550.

The 550 was expensive new and its residuals dived. By 2002 the 550 Maranello was a big unloved V12. During the period up to 2007 the 550 Maranello gradually gained some kudos mainly due to the poor reception of the 575 sans FHP, and that the 575's early generation paddle shift was relatively slow compared to the speed of the incoming 599 GTB in 2006. But even with all this my 550 was still struggling to reach mid 60K GBP trade.

Following the crash of 2008, the 550 flat-lined until 2012 when the full effect of US rampant QE and China's deliberate expansion began to boost assets, including certain cars. As the saying goes, everyone's a financial wizard with free money and the car market went nuts beginning with Ferrari. A 246 Dino which isn't a particularly awesome drive could have been had for less than 100K GBP. By 2013 is was rapidly heading to the late 200K GBP and beyond. The 288 GTO, which is however sublime went from 700K to nudging 2m GBP. An F50 could be had for 280K GBP and now early 1m GBP (though I think the F50 is a dark horse and is still good relative value - yes, I am biased).

The 550 was always going to be swept along and in 2013 it began its rise to around 150K GBP retail for a very good condition RHD. True, some of this is because the car has matured wonderfully. It was always a towering brilliant GT (although at 1950kg, 485 bhp and vented disc brakes she's no lightweight hypercar), it has a wonderful V12 with an ocean of torque, its sublime click-clack manual box the last of its breed and its styling which was deliberately subdued in 1996 post the 512 now looks elegant, even beautiful.

The days of 2002 market sentiment are long gone, the 550 Maranello is a truly great GT and a RHD with robust history is now desirable. But over 3000 were made in total and some dealers are being silly.




cgt2

7,093 posts

187 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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All good points above.

I remember a lovely 550 in a pale blue colour (not so desirable) being offered to me at £32k in around 2007. I went to see it and it was a great car, beautifully maintained with excellent paintwork and leather but I just did not get on with the colour. I was pretty sure if I offered £29k at the time the owner would have bitten my arm off as he was very keen to sell, he clearly didn't have many enquiries about it. Two of my friends bought 550's at low £30k's around the same time so they were definitely out there.

I later bought a manual 575 with FHP for £40k in 2009 (it was advertised at £47k) and most recently buying a mint 550 with 38k miles for £38k in 2013.

Until the madness of the past two years, £40k would have always bought you a decent car, £50k an excellent one.

One factor to mention is that 550/575's were relatively unloved until very recently and I often heard the looks described as awkward and even heard comparisons to Corvettes and Supras.

I never thought so myself but it just shows how perceptions can change when values rocket.

Mogul

2,925 posts

222 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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Not sure if plotting the all time low point for the 550 is of any great import at this juncture but my view is that only the shabbiest/highest miles cars would have ever scraped around at the £25k level in the trade and quite hard to believe that this low would have been seen around 2002 (when the oldest cars were just 6yrs old).

By 2002, the supercar world had certainly moved on and anyone with the readies could not have ignored the Vanquish and Murcielagos (both of which were in effect brand new models). Ferrari still managed to shift c.2,000 575Ms in the 2002-2005 period (which isn't far off the rate at which they sold c.3,000 550s during 1996-2001). This shows that there was still some demand out there and given that there was already a plethora of used 550s to choose from, the crap/normal V12 residuals would have been apparent. wink

In 2004, Evo Magazine famously gave the 550 their car of the decade accolade and Harry Metcalfe acquired one. According to his blog, he paid £60k for that car (at the tail end of '04 with 15k miles on the clock). He then doubled the mileage and his final post allocated a trade value of £48k to it whilst stating that low mileage cars were still worth around £60k (suspiciously round figures and journalistic license accepted).

http://www.evo.co.uk/ferrari/8077/ferrari-550

But I do recall another dip around the time of the 2007-8 financial crisis as noted by cgt2 above.



Edited by Mogul on Monday 30th May 17:10

MDL111

6,895 posts

176 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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One more datapoint: I looked at a low mileage (I think in the 20s) grey/black 550 in 2007. It was listed at 46k at the time and was not the cheapest car on the market. I sold my 355 for 27k in 2010 or 2011.

So these cars did drop to quite low figures at some point and 25k trade bid at some point does not sound completely out of this world - although I have no idea what the market was like in 2002

DeltaOne

558 posts

212 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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I know of a few cars recently traded at over 200k with low mileage/good provenance etc, so the idea that they'll fall back as far as that (even the "less" desirable ones) seems a way away. The 550/575 comparison is always going to be an interesting one because whereas the 550 was loved from day one, 575 took a beating from journalists, especially before the FHP appeared to steady the ship. I remember getting a very early 575, not being a huge fan of it so then trying to sell. I was left with no bid from a main dealer (quelle surprise), and ended up p/ex it with an independent against a car I didn't hugely want but at least it got me out of the 575. There are fewer manual 575's, so that might end up being the key driver behind the pricing.

Have to agree re F50 being a relative bargain in all of this (ok it's not as iconic as F40 but supply is far more limited, and it's the last manual halo model that Ferrari made). I think 512TR is still a good long term bet too, partly because I prefer its looks to the more modern M, and also because - if you're talking RHD - there are still very few of them around (think fewer 512TR with ABS than there are 512M).

Mogul

2,925 posts

222 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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DeltaOne said:
I know of a few cars recently traded at over 200k with low mileage/good provenance etc, .
A few (as in at least 3?) traded at over 200k (as in £?) Tell us more!

Private sales are one thing but in terms of confirmed deals in the public domain I can't recall seeing any auction result with a 550 (excl. Barchetta) selling at £200k or over. The closest that I am aware of was the LHD WSR at £179k...

http://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2015-03...

DeltaOne said:
The 550/575 comparison is always going to be an interesting one because whereas the 550 was loved from day one, 575 took a beating from journalists, especially before the FHP appeared to steady the ship.
That old chestnut! Hindsight is a wonderful thing but the FHP kit was available as an option on the 550 from early on and on the 575M from launch. Few knew about it and it wasn't promoted heavily by Ferrari because it arguably went against the intrinsic GT nature of the car.

By 2002, Ferrari was doing rather well on the track but when they signed off the 575M chassis (fundamentally very similar to the 550 chassis) they had dropped the steering angle position sensor that had been fitted to the 550 and the ECU that controlled the response of the adaptive dampers couldn't quite keep up.

When the first cars were tested by UK journalists (Clarkson) there was some criticism that it had become a 'wallowy old hector' etc. Something was clearly amis and in the context of the emerging track day scene and general Top Gear silliness, Ferrari responded by sending out cars equipped with the FHP kit that hadn't been pushed up to that point.

What Ferrari failed to mention to the journalists that drove these FHP-equipped cars was that they had also quietly revised adaptive suspension ECUs and whereas it was really the latter that dealt with the allegations of wallowyness, the former shifted the balance in favour of sportiness (slightly compromising the GT character of the car) with stiffer springs, a stiffer rear anti-roll bar and less power steering assistance.

Ferrari subsequently offered the revised suspension ECU upgrades to customers who complained about their 575Ms handling but didn't want to be sold the full FHP retrofit and ultimately re-introduced the steering position angle sensor later on in the production run.

DeltaOne said:
There are fewer manual 575's, so that might end up being the key driver behind the pricing.
You're not wrong there! The value of manual 575Ms has been propelled into another orbit in the past two years but there was a time when they were harder to shift (geddit)?

The irony is that the improved gearbox synchros in the 575M (identical in both F1 and Manual versions btw) actually mean that gear selection in the 575M car should be the pinnacle in terms of the manual shifting Maranello experience but the recent rise in valuations is all to do with the exclusivity and hens-teeth-factor and less to do with the dynamics.


Edited by Mogul on Monday 30th May 21:28

jtremlett

1,369 posts

221 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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Mogul said:
Private sales are one thing but in terms of confirmed deals the public domain, I can't recall seeing any auction result with a 550 (excl. Barchetta) selling at £200k or over. The closest that I am aware of was the LHD WSR at £179k...
I don't think auctions are much of a guide in that 550s (RHD at least) don't very often come up at auction. At least I can only recall two in the last year, one of which was Richard Colton's which sold at the same auction as his 275 and 250 SWB.

Just out of interest (or not!), and for the sake of posterity, the 43 adverts for 550s currently on Pistonheads seem to me to list 19 RHD 550 Maranellos (I can't tell if the Tom Hartley car sitting in a puddle is LHD or RHD but I assume the former). The remainder are 550 Barchettas, wanted ads or LHD cars.

Of those 19 RHD cars (7 of which are listed by Slades Garage), three are marked sold and the Graypaul £200k car is marked as under offer. Three are POA (including one car which is in Australia). That leaves 13 cars. The cheapest is the 96k miler at Justin Banks at £110k and the most expensive the £250k car at Speedmasters that has been for sale seemingly for ages at an ever increasing price. Eight cars with miles between 31k and 41k are priced between £149k and £160k. The final three are at £180k (23.5k miles), £190k (10k miles) and £200k (16k miles).

Of the three cars marked as sold. One, priced at £160k, at Slades appears to have just sold. The other two cars marked as sold seem to have been sold at least a couple of months ago. The £200k Graypaul car has been listed as under offer for about 2 weeks, I think.

Jonathan



jshell

11,006 posts

204 months

Tuesday 31st May 2016
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Graypaul Ferrari 575 for £175,000. Saw it in Edinburgh a couple of weeks ago: http://www.edinburgh.ferraridealers.com/en_gb/used...

Absolutely fking mental price.

rubystone

11,252 posts

258 months

Tuesday 31st May 2016
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I can't speak for 2002 prices, but it does seem that 550 owners were badly hit back then from what Camlet says! Unlike 355 owners who still would have to pay £60k for a used car....

In late 2008/early 2009 I was actively looking for a V12 Ferrari. At the time I had the opportunity to buy several 60k mile 550s at £25k, and an Argenta Cat D 25,000 miler from a trader was on offer too (I wonder where that car is now...) and an ex P1 612 at £39k. Any number of Testarossas was on offer at £35k. I shifted my attention to Enzo cars and passed on a 365 GTC/4 at £45k, a 330 GTE America at E66k, but settled on a 365 GT 2+2 at a chunk less than both of those.

By the way, well worth reading Michael Sheehan's May newsletter concerning the market and the demographic shifts in it. He has some interesting viewpoints on 550s and 575s too....good to see him talking up the SuperAmerica though smile

jshell

11,006 posts

204 months

Tuesday 31st May 2016
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