Should I trade my CS for a 16M?

[Radders]

AndrewD said:

I'm struggling to work out what special thing a CS has that a 16M doesn't!

I owned a strad and a scud at the same time, although the scud was fantastically capable I always wished I was in the strad each time I went for a blast in the scud. I sold the scud and still have the strad.

I would love a 16m but not in place of my stradale and I am confident you will regret selling it.

The strad has something special, a combination of noise and a raw driving feel.

[SteelySteve]

Radders said:

I owned a strad and a scud at the same time, although the scud was fantastically capable I always wished I was in the strad each time I went for a blast in the scud. I sold the scud and still have the strad.

Although Ive never owned a scud, Ive had 2 CS, and one is sitting in my garage right now. I feel the same, I have a GT3RS 3.8, and its awesome, but it just doesn't fulfil you in the same way a CS does, the RS is like every other sporty car ive driven, you have to make it really work to get a feel good feeling out of it, the CS is just different, it offers explosive theatre with the lightest prod of the throttle.

Id add that to my eyes the look of the CS is beautiful, in an organic kind of way, I happened to be looking at a 16M today at Ferrari in Colchester, and its nice but nowhere near as handsome as a CS. I think all 430's suffer from being what they are, a car that was a facelift of the 360, Enzo look rear panel, enzo look headlights, taller rear wings to acomodate a bigger engine, and then they chopped the roof off, I think the CS has the potential to be an all time classic Ferrari, the 16M, less so.

Edited by SteelySteve on Friday 18th April 19:28

[roygarth]

SteelySteve said:

I'd add that to my eyes the look of the CS is beautiful, in an organic kind of way, I think the CS has the potential to be an all time classic Ferrari.......

Definitely agree on the looks front....strange how passing of time can turn an average looking car into a beauty...and vica-versa! I reckon 360 is ageing much, much better than 355. Agree it will be considered a classic...with the CS variant being afforded 'ultra-classic' status

[Jappo]

Put a deposit down on the Rosso Scud at Meridien. Anyone on here know what issues should be looking for prior to purchase? e.g. I thought 42% clutch wear on a 12800 mile car seemed high and there is evidence of condensation in the cf headlamps.

[Russell996]

Jappo said:

Put a deposit down on the Rosso Scud at Meridien. Anyone on here know what issues should be looking for prior to purchase? e.g. I thought 42% clutch wear on a 12800 mile car seemed high and there is evidence of condensation in the cf headlamps.

Congrats on the Scud.
There are a number of threads on FC where owners have used a hair dryer on the headlights and after 15-20 mins of careful application the marking on the inside of the lens has completely gone.
Engine bay carbon always needs careful checking for yellowing and a SD3 readout of CCM wear % is a must.

[Jappo]

Russell996 said:

Jappo said:

Put a deposit down on the Rosso Scud at Meridien. Anyone on here know what issues should be looking for prior to purchase? e.g. I thought 42% clutch wear on a 12800 mile car seemed high and there is evidence of condensation in the cf headlamps.

Congrats on the Scud.
There are a number of threads on FC where owners have used a hair dryer on the headlights and after 15-20 mins of careful application the marking on the inside of the lens has completely gone.
Engine bay carbon always needs careful checking for yellowing and a SD3 readout of CCM wear % is a must.

Thanks, any idea of what acceptable readings should be? Re the headlights the car has obviously been kept dry for a while and the evidence of condensation could be seen as cloudiness.

[Russell996]

Jappo said:

Thanks, any idea of what acceptable readings should be? Re the headlights the car has obviously been kept dry for a while and the evidence of condensation could be seen as cloudiness.

When I get home I will dig out the SD3 figures for my car at 12k miles, might be a good reference point. The headlights aren't actually moisture related usually, it is the coating on the inside of the glass degrading which under the application of heat becomes clear once again.

[jimmyslr]

Jappo said:

Put a deposit down on the Rosso Scud at Meridien. Anyone on here know what issues should be looking for prior to purchase? e.g. I thought 42% clutch wear on a 12800 mile car seemed high and there is evidence of condensation in the cf headlamps.

I'd be checking the brake wear also as they're more expensive than the clutch. Also the usual stuff around accidents/panels/paint and service history. The market loves originality and a perfect track record and, given that car is top dollar, it should be pretty perfect in that regard.

The clutch use sounds highish, but important thing is why (which might not be easy to tell). It could have just been driven in traffic a lot without dropping it into neutral frequently. Perhaps use of reverse uphill. Maybe lots of full bore up shifts in race mode. Assuming it's the original clutch it's still good for another several years at similar usage to that which it has seen. If it's a 5 grand job then not end of world over several years and your usage pattern will drive the wear over the next few years.

As it happens, I bought the black Scud that Meridien had briefly until two weeks ago. Lovely car and service from the chaps there all good too. I'm a happy customer. Did I read elsewhere that you're chopping in a CS? Going against the crowd on that one, or at least the rather prevalent theme on every forum - very interesting. I thought about CS or Scud, but preferred the look, handling and usability of the Scud.

[Russell996]

Jappo said:

Thanks, any idea of what acceptable readings should be? Re the headlights the car has obviously been kept dry for a while and the evidence of condensation could be seen as cloudiness.

Checked my records and 17% clutch and 19% brake wear at 13k miles. Caveat - SD3 read outs are notoriously inaccurate!

[Russell996]

jimmyslr said:

The clutch use sounds highish, but important thing is why (which might not be easy to tell). It could have just been driven in traffic a lot without dropping it into neutral frequently. Perhaps use of reverse uphill. Maybe lots of full bore up shifts in race mode. Assuming it's the original clutch it's still good for another several years at similar usage to that which it has seen. If it's a 5 grand job then not end of world over several years and your usage pattern will drive the wear over the next few years.

As it happens, I bought the black Scud that Meridien had briefly until two weeks ago. Lovely car and service from the chaps there all good too. I'm a happy customer.

Congrats on your Scud!
Just to correct a couple of old wives tales: - dropping into neutral causes no less wear to the clutch in an F1 car - reverse in the 430 is a much lower gear than a 360 and reversing is virtually the same as using 1st - full bore SF2 gear shifts actually cause very little wear.

Biggest cause of clutch wear is slip, either caused by riding the biting point such as in slow moving traffic or launch control starts.

Edited by Russell996 on Monday 21st April 22:43

[jimmyslr]

Russell996 said:

Congrats on your Scud!
Just to correct a couple of old wives tales: - dropping into neutral causes no less wear to the clutch in an F1 car - reverse in the 430 is a much lower gear than a 360 and reversing is virtually the same as using 1st - full bore SF2 gear shifts actually cause very little wear.

Biggest cause of clutch wear is slip, either caused by riding the biting point such as in slow moving traffic or launch control starts.

Edited by Russell996 on Monday 21st April 22:43

Thanks Russell, v interesting. At least one of those was advised by dealer, the use of neutral in traffic queues; in my mind I associated that with crawling along and riding the clutch so I guess half right. I thought that the reversing issue was true of all F1 type boxes and that they hated slow/uphill reversing in particular.

Is there any other wear to the full bore SF2 changes, perhaps just pressure on drive train, engine mounts etc?

James

[Russell996]

jimmyslr said:

Thanks Russell, v interesting. At least one of those was advised by dealer, the use of neutral in traffic queues; in my mind I associated that with crawling along and riding the clutch so I guess half right. I thought that the reversing issue was true of all F1 type boxes and that they hated slow/uphill reversing in particular.

Is there any other wear to the full bore SF2 changes, perhaps just pressure on drive train, engine mounts etc?

James

Certainly in traffic it is advisable to wait for a gap and then fully engage the clutch before coming to rest once more, so stop start is preferable to riding the biting point to keep constant motion. The reverse clutch wear issue was to do with gear ratios (don't have them to hand right now) but the 360 reverse from memory is nearly the same ratio as second gear which caused massive slip, the 430 reverse is much more similar to first gear and hence much reduced slip - of course driving up a slope in either first or reverse and slipping the clutch constantly isn't good! Whether in neutral or in gear when stationary there is no difference - with an F1 it is as if your foot is always on the clutch, so shifting to neutral achieves nothing with regards to clutch wear.

SF2 gear changes certainly give a kick but it does seem to be a very reliable bit of hardware/software based on the postings of many guys who have tracked their cars extensively.

[Jappo]

Russell996 said:

Jappo said:

Thanks, any idea of what acceptable readings should be? Re the headlights the car has obviously been kept dry for a while and the evidence of condensation could be seen as cloudiness.

Checked my records and 17% clutch and 19% brake wear at 13k miles. Caveat - SD3 read outs are notoriously inaccurate!

Suggests unusually high clutch wear on "my" car then, perhaps it's been a city dweller, brake readings tomorrow will tell.

[Jappo]

jimmyslr said:

Jappo said:

Put a deposit down on the Rosso Scud at Meridien. Anyone on here know what issues should be looking for prior to purchase? e.g. I thought 42% clutch wear on a 12800 mile car seemed high and there is evidence of condensation in the cf headlamps.

I'd be checking the brake wear also as they're more expensive than the clutch. Also the usual stuff around accidents/panels/paint and service history. The market loves originality and a perfect track record and, given that car is top dollar, it should be pretty perfect in that regard.

The clutch use sounds highish, but important thing is why (which might not be easy to tell). It could have just been driven in traffic a lot without dropping it into neutral frequently. Perhaps use of reverse uphill. Maybe lots of full bore up shifts in race mode. Assuming it's the original clutch it's still good for another several years at similar usage to that which it has seen. If it's a 5 grand job then not end of world over several years and your usage pattern will drive the wear over the next few years.

As it happens, I bought the black Scud that Meridien had briefly until two weeks ago. Lovely car and service from the chaps there all good too. I'm a happy customer. Did I read elsewhere that you're chopping in a CS? Going against the crowd on that one, or at least the rather prevalent theme on every forum - very interesting. I thought about CS or Scud, but preferred the look, handling and usability of the Scud.

Yes, trading my CS, time will tell if I made the right decision.

[Jappo]

jimmyslr said:

Jappo said:

Put a deposit down on the Rosso Scud at Meridien. Anyone on here know what issues should be looking for prior to purchase? e.g. I thought 42% clutch wear on a 12800 mile car seemed high and there is evidence of condensation in the cf headlamps.

I'd be checking the brake wear also as they're more expensive than the clutch. Also the usual stuff around accidents/panels/paint and service history. The market loves originality and a perfect track record and, given that car is top dollar, it should be pretty perfect in that regard.

The clutch use sounds highish, but important thing is why (which might not be easy to tell). It could have just been driven in traffic a lot without dropping it into neutral frequently. Perhaps use of reverse uphill. Maybe lots of full bore up shifts in race mode. Assuming it's the original clutch it's still good for another several years at similar usage to that which it has seen. If it's a 5 grand job then not end of world over several years and your usage pattern will drive the wear over the next few years.

As it happens, I bought the black Scud that Meridien had briefly until two weeks ago. Lovely car and service from the chaps there all good too. I'm a happy customer. Did I read elsewhere that you're chopping in a CS? Going against the crowd on that one, or at least the rather prevalent theme on every forum - very interesting. I thought about CS or Scud, but preferred the look, handling and usability of the Scud.

Yes, trading my CS, time will tell if I made the right decision.

[d8ean]

interesting reading all this.
any news on the %'s?

[Jappo]

d8ean said:

interesting reading all this.
any news on the %'s?

Brakes were 20% worn

[Jappo]

d8ean said:

interesting reading all this.
any news on the %'s?

Brakes were 20% worn

[col68]

That sounds ok for the brake wear,clutch wear is a bit high usually the ccm and clutch are pretty close to each other.......last red car they had was high 50's on the brake wear,when I asked if it had been tracked,they said yes, but in a 'proper way'....

[matc]

col68 said:

That sounds ok for the brake wear,clutch wear is a bit high usually the ccm and clutch are pretty close to each other.......last red car they had was high 50's on the brake wear,when I asked if it had been tracked,they said yes, but in a 'proper way'....

They supply and re-sell the Thruxton experience cars, so whilst they've probably not had incredibly hard abuse, it'll certainly be more than a chershied car would have been subject to.