Forghieri speaks on the Glickenhaus car

[Elex]

Burwood said:

So you say. The fact Jim has a 200 page document in itself means it's more than the one page you have produced. Have you actually seen the car, been driven in it?

Jim's document is actually 132 pages. It contains misinformation, misquotation, misinterpretation and things that are not true.

[Murph7355]

Elex said:

Muzzer79 said:

Seriously, what do you hope to gain from this?

Acknowledgement from Glickenhaus that his car is a fake?
Acknowledgement from Sergio Marchionne himself that the car is a fake?
A statement written in blood from someone?

One suspects you may have a long wait for either so this thread is, ultimately, futile.

Nobody reading these pages is able to conclusively accept your arguments or those of your 'opponent' so it just seems like you're a crazed madman shouting on a soapbox in a street with no-one listening.

The man who designed and oversaw the build of the original Ferrari 330 P3/4 0846, Ing. Mauro Forghieri, on looking at pictures of the engine mountings of James Glickenhaus's chassis has said:

"Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount."

So, we already have the proof from the highest authority there is on 0846 that JG's chassis is not the original 0846.

As a neutral observer you actually have no such thing.

You have the recollection of an 80yr old man (I believe) about something that happened 50yrs ago (I believe) and who is unlikely to have been present with the car/its parts for every minute of the intervening 50yrs.

More to the point, the current owner seems to have a bunch of stuff that is as equally compelling (or as equally not) to prove the opposite to your view. He also doesn't appear to be causing anyone other than you distress about its provenance - it's not like he's trying to tout it on the market.

You've also ducked the questions Muzzer79 asked. You do seem to have the biggest of bees in your bonnet over this, and having seen you post on it in various places, following JG around, it does all come across as very weird and not a little bit creepy - JG's certainly been more tolerant of your attentions than I think I would have been in the circumstances

[Elex]

Murph7355 said:

As a neutral observer you actually have no such thing.

You have the recollection of an 80yr old man (I believe) about something that happened 50yrs ago (I believe) and who is unlikely to have been present with the car/its parts for every minute of the intervening 50yrs.

More to the point, the current owner seems to have a bunch of stuff that is as equally compelling (or as equally not) to prove the opposite to your view. He also doesn't appear to be causing anyone other than you distress about its provenance - it's not like he's trying to tout it on the market.

You've also ducked the questions Muzzer79 asked. You do seem to have the biggest of bees in your bonnet over this, and having seen you post on it in various places, following JG around, it does all come across as very weird and not a little bit creepy - JG's certainly been more tolerant of your attentions than I think I would have been in the circumstances

Ing. Forghieri's memory is fine I am reliably informed. He does not need to have been with the chassis for the last 49 years to see that the engine mountings and wheelbase length, which JG claims identifies it as the original 0846, are not as he designed and built them, proving it is not the original 0846.

JG may not be touting his car on the market but he is certainly touting his car as the original 0846, which Ferrari told him to make the press aware that his car/chassis is not the original 0846. If he is not touting the car, what are his 0846 pdf document, 0846 videos and threads of its restoration and relentless postings on FerrariChat all about?

Edited by Elex on Wednesday 15th April 23:05

[dudleybloke]

So if its not 0846 where is 0846?

[Elex]

dudleybloke said:

So if its not 0846 where is 0846?

Its last provable whereabouts were in the Ferrari scrap yard in 1967.

[Muzzer79]

Elex said:

Muzzer79 said:

Seriously, what do you hope to gain from this?

Acknowledgement from Glickenhaus that his car is a fake?
Acknowledgement from Sergio Marchionne himself that the car is a fake?
A statement written in blood from someone?

One suspects you may have a long wait for either so this thread is, ultimately, futile.

Nobody reading these pages is able to conclusively accept your arguments or those of your 'opponent' so it just seems like you're a crazed madman shouting on a soapbox in a street with no-one listening.

The man who designed and oversaw the build of the original Ferrari 330 P3/4 0846, Ing. Mauro Forghieri, on looking at pictures of the engine mountings of James Glickenhaus's chassis has said:

"Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount."

So, we already have the proof from the highest authority there is on 0846 that JG's chassis is not the original 0846.

That is not answering my question.

That is repeating your soapbox ranting.

Answer the question credibly and some people might start taking you more seriously.

[Burwood]

a few facts which make the fake claim a bit redundant.



"While Ferrari insists that 0846 was scrapped and is no more, a car exists with strong claims to be the resurrection of that car." Its tube frame chassis appears to be a P3 Chassis modified to hold a P4 engine, as was the case with 0846 exclusively, and the damage from two contemporary racing accidents appears in the frame as well. The car's transmission, engine heads, and steering rack also include the correct Le Mans scrutinizing marks, linking them to P3 0846 and P3/4 0846 of 1966 and 1967. P3/4 0846 was road tested by Car and Driver magazine

This dovetails with Mauro Forghieri's written statement that 0846's original chassis was scrapped not destroyed and that "the modification of the chassis with vestigial mounts etc." "of course" could have been done by Ferrari. 0846's Original P3/4 Chassis is different from, and can not be made from P4 Blueprints

[ferrisbueller]

Elex said:

Jim's document is actually 132 pages. It contains misinformation, misquotation, misinterpretation and things that are not true.

Would you mind declaring what your vested interest is here please?

You clearly have an axe to grind. In the same way you're demanding a public full disclosure of detail from the other party, perhaps you should do the same?

[Elex]

Burwood said:

a few facts which make the fake claim a bit redundant.



"While Ferrari insists that 0846 was scrapped and is no more, a car exists with strong claims to be the resurrection of that car." Its tube frame chassis appears to be a P3 Chassis modified to hold a P4 engine, as was the case with 0846 exclusively, and the damage from two contemporary racing accidents appears in the frame as well. The car's transmission, engine heads, and steering rack also include the correct Le Mans scrutinizing marks, linking them to P3 0846 and P3/4 0846 of 1966 and 1967. P3/4 0846 was road tested by Car and Driver magazine

This dovetails with Mauro Forghieri's written statement that 0846's original chassis was scrapped not destroyed and that "the modification of the chassis with vestigial mounts etc." "of course" could have been done by Ferrari. 0846's Original P3/4 Chassis is different from, and can not be made from P4 Blueprints

Not many facts there I'm afraid. "Strong claims" does not mean strong evidence. JG's replica chassis appears to be P3 in type that has actually been modified to hold a 312 F1 engine that JG bought the car with which has the same mounting coordinates as a P4 engine. However it has not been modified in the way that 0846 P3/4 was. Below is from Mauro Forghieri's email to me after he looked at the pictures of the modifications to JG's chassis which has been authenticated by one of JG's biggest supperters, Peter Skudder:

"Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount."

The above proves JG's chassis is not the original 0846.

It is the chassis that identifies the car, not the transmission, engine heads and steering rack.

There is no proof that the damage on JG's chassis matches that of 0846. Wayne Sparling was not at the Targa Florio in 1967 to have carried out the repair to the chassis that JG claims he did.

That MF may have said in his alleged and unauthenticated statement to JG that the chassis of 0846 was not destroyed by his department does not mean that it was not later destroyed in the Ferrari scrap yard. The chassis of 0846's provable whereabouts end there.

From the same unauthenticated statement by Mauro Forghieri, he did not say that "the modification of the chassis with vestigial mounts etc." "of course" could have been done by Ferrari." James has changed and twisted it. What JG alleges that MF said is below:

"I cannot of course rule out that thos modifications have been carried out elsewhere, perhaps even by another Ferrari departement." Therefore Mauro Forghieri and his Racing Department did not carry out the modifications.

As it was Mauro Forghieri's Racing Department that carried out the modifications to the chassis of the original 0846, the above statement would be further proof that JG's chassis is not the original 0846.

Edited by Elex on Friday 17th April 06:29

[SHutchinson]

Elex, we get all of that. You're still dodging the question that everyone is now beginning to ask you.

Do you have a vested interest in this or are you simply being dogmatic?

[Burwood]

Elex said:

Burwood said:

a few facts which make the fake claim a bit redundant.



"While Ferrari insists that 0846 was scrapped and is no more, a car exists with strong claims to be the resurrection of that car." Its tube frame chassis appears to be a P3 Chassis modified to hold a P4 engine, as was the case with 0846 exclusively, and the damage from two contemporary racing accidents appears in the frame as well. The car's transmission, engine heads, and steering rack also include the correct Le Mans scrutinizing marks, linking them to P3 0846 and P3/4 0846 of 1966 and 1967. P3/4 0846 was road tested by Car and Driver magazine

This dovetails with Mauro Forghieri's written statement that 0846's original chassis was scrapped not destroyed and that "the modification of the chassis with vestigial mounts etc." "of course" could have been done by Ferrari. 0846's Original P3/4 Chassis is different from, and can not be made from P4 Blueprints

Not many facts there I'm afraid. "Strong claims" does not mean strong evidence. JG's replica chassis appears to be P3 in type that has actually been modified to hold a 312 F1 engine that JG bought the car with which has the same mounting coordinates as a P4 engine. However it has not been modified in the way that 0846 P3/4 was. Below is from Mauro Forghieri's email to me after he looked at the pictures of the modifications to JG's chassis which has been authenticated by one of JG's biggest supperters, Peter Skudder:

"Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount."

The above proves JG's chassis is not the original 0846.

It is the chassis that identifies the car, not the transmission, engine heads and steering rack.

There is no proof that the damage on JG's chassis matches that of 0846. Wayne Sparling was not at the Targa Florio in 1967 to have carried out the repair to the chassis that JG claims he did.

That MF may have said in his alleged and unauthenticated statement to JG that the chassis of 0846 was not destroyed by his department does not mean that it was not later destroyed in the Ferrari scrap yard. The chassis of 0846's provable whereabouts end there.

From the same unauthenticated statement by Mauro Forghieri, he did not say that "the modification of the chassis with vestigial mounts etc." "of course" could have been done by Ferrari." James has changed and twisted it. What JG alleges that MF said is below:

"I cannot of course rule out that thos modifications have been carried out elsewhere, perhaps even by another Ferrari departement." Therefore Mauro Forghieri and his Racing Department did not carry out the modifications.

As it was Mauro Forghieri's Racing Department that carried out the modifications to the chassis of the original 0846, the above statement would be further proof that JG's chassis is not the original 0846.

Edited by Elex on Friday 17th April 06:29

You better contact wiki and ferrari as my post is the official line.

[Gandahar]

Why is this such an important question to have gone to 7 pages ? Is someone buying it on here?

[Burwood]

One can see that the letter elex has, even if genuine contains terrible english which is the polar opposite of wiki quotes by the author. In my opinion he has confused can and cannot etc. anyway as far as the community is concerned Jim owns the genuine chassis so elex is st out of luck

[Elex]

Burwood said:

You better contact wiki and ferrari as my post is the official line.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_P

Absolutely not. Wiki is not the official line at all. People mistake Wikipedia as being an encyclopaedia containing verified facts whereas it is no such thing. The information on the P3, 412P and P3/4 on that page was largely written by James Glickenhaus and is full of bullst.

[Elex]

Burwood said:

One can see that the letter elex has, even if genuine contains terrible english which is the polar opposite of wiki quotes by the author. In my opinion he has confused can and cannot etc. anyway as far as the community is concerned Jim owns the genuine chassis so elex is st out of luck

Ing. Mauro Forghieri is Italian. Show some respect.

[Burwood]

Elex said:

Burwood said:

One can see that the letter elex has, even if genuine contains terrible english which is the polar opposite of wiki quotes by the author. In my opinion he has confused can and cannot etc. anyway as far as the community is concerned Jim owns the genuine chassis so elex is st out of luck

Ing. Mauro Forghieri is Italian. Show some respect.

Why do I owe him respect because he is italian?

[Drclarke]

Elex said:

Ing. Mauro Forghieri is Italian. Show some respect.

You have now crossed the line from being quite odd, over to really weird.

[Elex]

Burwood said:

Why do I owe him respect because he is italian?

Because English is not his first language. Your own English is not the best.

[Burwood]

Elex said:

Burwood said:

Why do I owe him respect because he is italian?

Because English is not his first language. How is your Italian?

Quite good actually. You are relying on a document written by someone in another language. A document with supposed highly controversial and technical content- it is clear from the content that the english is bad. I am stating a fact and there is no room for showing respect or otherwise. What you have is interesting but it doesn't prove a thing. And more importantly, as you refuse to answer anyones questions other than stick to your broken record, i'm leaving it here.

[Elex]

Elex said:

Silent1 said:

Elex, what do you want to get out of this?

Let me tell you what I get out of this: I am passionate about the history of Ferrari and it sickens me that that history is being distorted by Mr Glickenhaus claiming that his replica is the original 0846. The link below by Road & Track is just one example where the Piper/Glickenhaus chassis is being stated as 0846 which is of course total BS. If I can inform people of the true facts then I admit to taking pleasure from that.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-videos/ferrari-330...

I have no vested interest. If you had all read this thread properly you will see that I have already answered the question.