Forghieri speaks on the Glickenhaus car

Forghieri speaks on the Glickenhaus car

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Discussion

Elex

Original Poster:

458 posts

209 months

Tuesday 1st July 2014
quotequote all
Napolis said:
Chris wasn't hit by a flying wheel.

Ferrari in writing has confirmed in writing several times to several different people that 0846's chassis was not destroyed but was scrapped.

Piper has stated under penalty of law that "003" chassis was built to P4 blueprints given to him by Enzo Ferrari. It's good to see that MF is still able to recognize that it's not.

Talk to one of the guys who recently worked with MF regarding his current capabilities and memory on the 815 which he also designed many years ago. The word he used to me was "fiasco".

9/11 happened
Lady Gaga does not have a penis.
Ferrari has continuously published in their sole descression on a website copyrighted solely by them for over 12 years that I have owned 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 chassis 0846 since July 2000.
You claimed that the engine mountings on your chassis identified it as the original 330 P3/4 #0846 whereas in fact what they do, by the way they have been executed, is identify it as a replica, which is how it was described by David Piper, and how you bought it from him.

Ferrari would never have used the method to bolt a P4 engine to a P3 chassis as has been done on your car in a million years. The engine mountings on your chassis compromise the rigidity of the structure.

Please show some respect instead of disrespect for Ing. Forghieri. It's time to concede that your chassis is NOT the original 330 P3/4 0846 that won the 1967 Daytona 24 Hours race. There would be no shame in that. You do have some truly wonderful cars.




Edited by Elex on Tuesday 1st July 22:05

Silent1

19,761 posts

235 months

Wednesday 2nd July 2014
quotequote all
Napolis said:
<snip>

9/11 happened
Lady Gaga does not have a penis.
Ferrari has continuously published in their sole descression on a website copyrighted solely by them for over 12 years that I have owned 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 chassis 0846 since July 2000.
I'm loving your humour jim hehe

Robert W

544 posts

162 months

Wednesday 2nd July 2014
quotequote all
please tell me you have put this on ferrarichat to a wide audience - I'm sure the wider American Ferrari fraternity will jizz pages of opinion on this type of discussion?

Elex

Original Poster:

458 posts

209 months

Wednesday 2nd July 2014
quotequote all
Napolis said:
Ferrari has continuously published in their sole descression on a website copyrighted solely by them for over 12 years that I have owned 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 chassis 0846 since July 2000.
Ferrari have published nothing. This has been discussed on FerrarChat. They may have placed the info that YOU sent them for your entertainment only on a private part of the Ferrari site, but we only have your word for this anyway. You would be the only one who would see that information and nobody else as access is password protected. Ferrari most definitely have not "published" meaning they have made the information available to the public/populus that you own Ferrari P3/4 0846. Please let us know where it has been published.

The only person who has published that you own Ferrari P3/4 0846 is YOU, Jim Glickenhaus. What Ferrari actually did was tell you to use your best endeavors to make the press aware that your car is NOT the original 0846 but you defied them and did the complete opposite and told everybody that your car IS the original 0846. Well, it's not and Ing. Forghieri's statement proves it.

Edited by Elex on Monday 7th July 22:12

Silent1

19,761 posts

235 months

Thursday 3rd July 2014
quotequote all
Elex said:
Napolis said:
Ferrari has continuously published in their sole descression on a website copyrighted solely by them for over 12 years that I have owned 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 chassis 0846 since July 2000.
Ferrari have published nothing. This has been discussed on FerrarChat. They may have placed the info that YOU sent them for your entertainment only on a private part of the Ferrari site but we only have your word for this anyway. You would be the only one who would see that information and nobody else as access is password protected. Ferrari most definitely have not "published" meaning they have made the information available to public/populus that you own Ferrari P3/4 0846. Please let us know where it has been published.

The only person who has published that you own Ferrari P3/4 0846 is YOU, Jim Glickenhaus. What Ferrari actually did was tell you to use your best endeavors to make the press aware that your car is NOT the original 0846 but you defied them and did the complete opposite and told everybody that your car IS the original 0846. Well, it's not and Ing. Forghieri's statement proves it.
This strikes me as a bit of handbags at dawn and really should be sorted out face to face, slanging st on forums about someones car is not only wrong but potentially a legal minefield and if anything else, you're not coming out of this looking good.

dinkel

26,939 posts

258 months

Saturday 12th July 2014
quotequote all
p45c.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/project.pdf

FERRARI 330 P3/4 Chassis 0846 - © 2004 James Glickenhaus

P5 IS NOT BUILT ON THE CHASSIS REMAINS OF 0846

Interesting read.

Elex

Original Poster:

458 posts

209 months

Sunday 13th July 2014
quotequote all
dinkel said:
P5 IS NOT BUILT ON THE CHASSIS REMAINS OF 0846
...and neither is the Piper/Glickenhaus car, #0003.

Napolis

303 posts

213 months

Sunday 13th July 2014
quotequote all
Silent1 said:
Napolis said:
<snip>

9/11 happened
Lady Gaga does not have a penis.
Ferrari has continuously published in their sole descression on a website copyrighted solely by them for over 12 years that I have owned 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 chassis 0846 since July 2000.
I'm loving your humour jim hehe
This troll has been banned from Ferrari Chat and his threads have been deleted from Ferrari Life.

He posts things that he himself in writing admits aren't true.

"Ferrari have published nothing."

The document on p45c.com,years ago made public the email Ferrari sent me explaining the procedures they were using to investigate whether or not to publish on their Web site clearly bearing the sole copyright Ferrari S.p.A., in their sole descression, noting that they had to be very careful as my car was a special case, the clear fact that I am the owner of Ferrari P 3/4 chassis 0846 and have been since 2000. The page that Ferrari Published that fact after following the procedure Ferrari outlined in their email to me was posted on Ferrari Chat years ago. This troll recently posted on another web page that "my word" is the only proof of that, clearly purposefully stating something that he knows is untrue and he has previously publically acknowledged by very clearly posting, referencing that specific email to me from Ferrari "Who am I to argue with Ferrari."

His reckless disregard for the truth is once again Memorialized.

As for MF.

Chris wasn't hit by a flying wheel.

Period Photos of MM's clearly show that what MF claims Ferrari would never do Ferrari in fact did on other cars where they changed engine dimensions.

MF "chassis was destroyed"

Not true as Ferrari Clearly stated in the following. This was before 2000 when I began the legal process that caused them to publish the fact that I am the current owner of Ferrari P 3/4 0846 and have been since 2000:

Ferrari's response through communications with Ferrari historian and Cavallino contributor Keith Bluemel was as follows:
"Burned at Le Mans 1967 - The car was returned to Maranello. Bodywork: Almost completely destroyed. Right side distribution system and fuel tank burned. Disassembled all the mechanical components and sent the chassis to customer service department for eventual use. There is nothing to say that the car has been sold and for Ferrari a car with the chassis number 0846 does not exist."

On Ferrari Chat years ago Nathan proved beyond the shadow on any doubt with a photo David provided him that David did not understand the difference between a P3 and a P4 chassis and that David's stating under penalty of law that the chassis he sold me was "P4 built using blueprints Enzo Ferrari" was not true.

Once again this troll goes on ignore so I will not be seeing anything he posts here and once again if anyone thinks anything he posts is deserving of an answer and has not been previously asked and answered many,many times let me know and I will respond.

Cheers

Wikipedia:

0846 the only P3/4 was originally built early in 1966 as a P3 by Ferrari. It was modified in December 1966 to accept a P4 engine and it's wheelbase was decreased P3 2412mm to P4 2400mm.[7] It retained its P3 nose and chassis and vestigial P3 engine mounts becoming a P 3/4. This vehicle was damaged in an accident at Le Mans and was discarded by Ferrari.[8] Recently, many components of the original P3/4 0846 including it's original P 3/4 chassis have resurfaced in the possession of exotic car collector and enthusiast James Glickenhaus, a former movie director and stock exchange magnate. Although both he and David Piper (from whom he acquired the car) thought it one of three replica P4 chassis constructed with the blessing of Enzo Ferrari in the mid 70ies from Factory P4 Chassis Blueprints given to David Piper by Enzo Ferrari, a recent "Death Bed Statement" of Tom Meade's confirms that Tom Meade bought, Directly From Enzo Ferrari, in the early 70ies, Ferrari P 3/4 0846's original fire damaged chassis which had been put in the Ferrari Factory Scrap Yard after 0846's accident at Le Mans in 1967 and later sold 0846's original P 3/4 chassis to the original chassis maker who repaired and sold it, unbeknownst to David Piper, who thought the original chassis maker was making three new P4 Chassis from the original P4 chassis blueprints Enzo Ferrari gave to him. 0846's Original P3/4 Chassis is different from, and can not be made from P4 Blueprints. [9] Nearly all of the tube frame chassis and other components from the original wrecked P3/4 0846 are part the car owned by James Glickenhaus today.[10] This discovery has stirred debate. The Ferrari Market Letter recently reported: "While Ferrari insists that 0846 was scrapped and is no more, a car exists with strong claims to be the resurrection of that car." Its tube frame chassis appears to be a P3 Chassis modified to hold a P4 engine, as was the case with 0846 exclusively, and the damage from two contemporary racing accidents appears in the frame as well. The car's transmission, engine heads, and steering rack also include the correct Le Mans scrutineering marks, linking them to P3 0846 and P3/4 0846 of 1966 and 1967. P3/4 0846 was road tested by Car and Driver magazine.[11]

Since 2002, Ferrari S.p.A. has continuously published the fact on their official web site Ferrari.com Copyrighted by Ferrari S.p.A,in the owners section, in Ferrari S.p.A's sole discretion, that Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 has been owned by James Glickenhaus since July 2000, when he bought it from David Piper. The legal identity of this particular car that James Glickenhaus has owned since July 2000 as published by Ferrari S.p.A. on their copyrighted web site was established when James Glickenhaus informed Ferrari S.p.A. that he was registering this car as 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 Chassis 0846 with US Motor Vehicle Authorities in 2000 and if Ferrari believed this was not true that they had the duty to act within a two year period which they did not. "The common law doctrine of estoppel by acquiescence is applied when one party gives legal notice to a second party of a fact or claim, and the second party fails to challenge or refute that claim within a reasonable time. The second party is said to have acquiesced to the claim, and is estopped from later challenging it, or making a counterclaim. The doctrine is similar to, and often applied with, estoppel by laches."




Edited by Napolis on Sunday 13th July 15:56

Silent1

19,761 posts

235 months

Sunday 13th July 2014
quotequote all
Thanks for the explanation, it makes things a lot clearer now, it truly is a shame when people can't just be happy for others and accept they're wrong, after all I would expect that the owner of a car would be the most likely person to have an understanding of their car!

Elex

Original Poster:

458 posts

209 months

Sunday 13th July 2014
quotequote all
Napolis said:
This troll has been banned from Ferrari Chat and his threads have been deleted from Ferrari Life.

He posts things that he himself in writing admits aren't true.

"Ferrari have published nothing."

The document on p45c.com,years ago made public the email Ferrari sent me explaining the procedures they were using to investigate whether or not to publish on their Web site clearly bearing the sole copyright Ferrari S.p.A., in their sole descression, noting that they had to be very careful as my car was a special case, the clear fact that I am the owner of Ferrari P 3/4 chassis 0846 and have been since 2000. The page that Ferrari Published that fact after following the procedure Ferrari outlined in their email to me was posted on Ferrari Chat years ago. This troll recently posted on another web page that "my word" is the only proof of that, clearly purposefully stating something that he knows is untrue and he has previously publically acknowledged by very clearly posting, referencing that specific email to me from Ferrari "Who am I to argue with Ferrari."

His reckless disregard for the truth is once again Memorialized.

As for MF.

Chris wasn't hit by a flying wheel.

Period Photos of MM's clearly show that what MF claims Ferrari would never do Ferrari in fact did on other cars where they changed engine dimensions.

MF "chassis was destroyed"

Not true as Ferrari Clearly stated in the following. This was before 2000 when I began the legal process that caused them to publish the fact that I am the current owner of Ferrari P 3/4 0846 and have been since 2000:

Ferrari's response through communications with Ferrari historian and Cavallino contributor Keith Bluemel was as follows:
"Burned at Le Mans 1967 - The car was returned to Maranello. Bodywork: Almost completely destroyed. Right side distribution system and fuel tank burned. Disassembled all the mechanical components and sent the chassis to customer service department for eventual use. There is nothing to say that the car has been sold and for Ferrari a car with the chassis number 0846 does not exist."

On Ferrari Chat years ago Nathan proved beyond the shadow on any doubt with a photo David provided him that David did not understand the difference between a P3 and a P4 chassis and that David's stating under penalty of law that the chassis he sold me was "P4 built using blueprints Enzo Ferrari" was not true.

Once again this troll goes on ignore so I will not be seeing anything he posts here and once again if anyone thinks anything he posts is deserving of an answer and has not been previously asked and answered many,many times let me know and I will respond.

Cheers

Wikipedia:

0846 the only P3/4 was originally built early in 1966 as a P3 by Ferrari. It was modified in December 1966 to accept a P4 engine and it's wheelbase was decreased P3 2412mm to P4 2400mm.[7] It retained its P3 nose and chassis and vestigial P3 engine mounts becoming a P 3/4. This vehicle was damaged in an accident at Le Mans and was discarded by Ferrari.[8] Recently, many components of the original P3/4 0846 including it's original P 3/4 chassis have resurfaced in the possession of exotic car collector and enthusiast James Glickenhaus, a former movie director and stock exchange magnate. Although both he and David Piper (from whom he acquired the car) thought it one of three replica P4 chassis constructed with the blessing of Enzo Ferrari in the mid 70ies from Factory P4 Chassis Blueprints given to David Piper by Enzo Ferrari, a recent "Death Bed Statement" of Tom Meade's confirms that Tom Meade bought, Directly From Enzo Ferrari, in the early 70ies, Ferrari P 3/4 0846's original fire damaged chassis which had been put in the Ferrari Factory Scrap Yard after 0846's accident at Le Mans in 1967 and later sold 0846's original P 3/4 chassis to the original chassis maker who repaired and sold it, unbeknownst to David Piper, who thought the original chassis maker was making three new P4 Chassis from the original P4 chassis blueprints Enzo Ferrari gave to him. 0846's Original P3/4 Chassis is different from, and can not be made from P4 Blueprints. [9] Nearly all of the tube frame chassis and other components from the original wrecked P3/4 0846 are part the car owned by James Glickenhaus today.[10] This discovery has stirred debate. The Ferrari Market Letter recently reported: "While Ferrari insists that 0846 was scrapped and is no more, a car exists with strong claims to be the resurrection of that car." Its tube frame chassis appears to be a P3 Chassis modified to hold a P4 engine, as was the case with 0846 exclusively, and the damage from two contemporary racing accidents appears in the frame as well. The car's transmission, engine heads, and steering rack also include the correct Le Mans scrutineering marks, linking them to P3 0846 and P3/4 0846 of 1966 and 1967. P3/4 0846 was road tested by Car and Driver magazine.[11]

Since 2002, Ferrari S.p.A. has continuously published the fact on their official web site Ferrari.com Copyrighted by Ferrari S.p.A,in the owners section, in Ferrari S.p.A's sole discretion, that Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 has been owned by James Glickenhaus since July 2000, when he bought it from David Piper. The legal identity of this particular car that James Glickenhaus has owned since July 2000 as published by Ferrari S.p.A. on their copyrighted web site was established when James Glickenhaus informed Ferrari S.p.A. that he was registering this car as 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 Chassis 0846 with US Motor Vehicle Authorities in 2000 and if Ferrari believed this was not true that they had the duty to act within a two year period which they did not. "The common law doctrine of estoppel by acquiescence is applied when one party gives legal notice to a second party of a fact or claim, and the second party fails to challenge or refute that claim within a reasonable time. The second party is said to have acquiesced to the claim, and is estopped from later challenging it, or making a counterclaim. The doctrine is similar to, and often applied with, estoppel by laches."




Edited by Napolis on Sunday 13th July 15:56
I am not a troll. Yes, I have been banned from FerrariChat because I questioned the authenticity of the Glickenhaus chassis being the original 0846. Mr Glickenhaus would not answer my questions regarding misquotations and misinterpretations he had made on FerrariChat and in his 0846 pdf document. Rather than answer my questions he decided not to post on FerrariChat any more. In an attempt to get him to return, some of the pro Glickenhaus moderators decided to ban me. The ban was not supported by the owner of the site, Rob Lay and a number of other moderators.

After leaving FerrariChat Mr Glickenhaus then started posting on the web site FerrariLife. They were glad to have him as a contributor. I then received the reply to my questions that I sent to Mauro Forghieri which proves the Glickenhaus chassis is not 0846. All I posted was exactly the same as I have done in the first post of this thread. I was immediately banned and my post was removed. FerrariLife are not interested in the truth. They would rather have Jim Glickenhaus as a contributor, with his misinformation, than somebody who posts the truth. They banned me for posting proof from Ing. Forghieri that the Glickenhaus chassis is not 0846.

My findings and beliefs regarding the engine mountings on the Glickenhaus chassis proving it is not the original 0846 were confirmed by my correspondence with Ing. Mauro Forghieri. The email to me from Ing. Forghieri has been authenticated by one of Mr Glickenhaus's supporters, Peter Skudder.

Informed readers with even basic knowledge of the history of Ferrari will know that Ing. Forghieri designed and oversaw the build of the original 0846. After Enzo Ferrari himself, Ing. Forghieri is the most important contributor to the success of Ferrari in its entire history.

The Glickenhaus 0846 pdf has been proved to be full of misinformation. Regarding the Wikipedia page on 0846, now who do you think wrote that?????


Edited by Elex on Sunday 13th July 21:40

Silent1

19,761 posts

235 months

Sunday 13th July 2014
quotequote all
Elex, what do you want to get out of this?
It's a pointless fight, it doesn't affect you in any material way yet you're coming across as massively involved in trying to prove some kind of fraud, you posted this topic twice trying to get jim to bite and congratulations you did, but apart from that what have you done except act like an angry monkey throwing poo at the wall?

Just move on, it's really not a big deal, at the end of the day it's an old car, not some panacea to the worlds ills that's being hidden away.

Andy 308GTB

2,923 posts

221 months

Sunday 13th July 2014
quotequote all
Silent1 said:
Just move on, it's really not a big deal, at the end of the day it's an old car, not some panacea to the worlds ills that's being hidden away.
In financial terms it probably is a huge deal.

I have no idea who is right or wrong but I do understand Elex's frustration at being banned from websites and having Wikipedia used to discredit his arguments. On the other hand the owner of the car is understandably fed up having to try and prove the originality of his car.
Unfortunately race cars of that period were simply tools of the trade, so the past can be very murky.

Silent1

19,761 posts

235 months

Sunday 13th July 2014
quotequote all
Andy 308GTB said:
Silent1 said:
Just move on, it's really not a big deal, at the end of the day it's an old car, not some panacea to the worlds ills that's being hidden away.
In financial terms it probably is a huge deal.

I have no idea who is right or wrong but I do understand Elex's frustration at being banned from websites and having Wikipedia used to discredit his arguments. On the other hand the owner of the car is understandably fed up having to try and prove the originality of his car.
Unfortunately race cars of that period were simply tools of the trade, so the past can be very murky.
To the owner and maybe a future purchaser but it's down to them to hammer it out, it strikes me Elex is beyond any normal level of interest. I don't know.

WCZ

10,523 posts

194 months

Monday 14th July 2014
quotequote all
Silent1 said:
To the owner and maybe a future purchaser but it's down to them to hammer it out, it strikes me Elex is beyond any normal level of interest. I don't know.
probably a case of him genuinely believing it's not as Jim states and the perception that him being rich gives him the ability to manipulate 'facts'

Elex

Original Poster:

458 posts

209 months

Wednesday 16th July 2014
quotequote all
Silent1 said:
Elex, what do you want to get out of this?
It's a pointless fight, it doesn't affect you in any material way yet you're coming across as massively involved in trying to prove some kind of fraud, you posted this topic twice trying to get jim to bite and congratulations you did, but apart from that what have you done except act like an angry monkey throwing poo at the wall?

Just move on, it's really not a big deal, at the end of the day it's an old car, not some panacea to the worlds ills that's being hidden away.
Let me tell you what I get out of this: I am passionate about the history of Ferrari and it sickens me that that history is being distorted by Mr Glickenhaus claiming that his replica is the original 0846. The link below by Road & Track is just one example where the Piper/Glickenhaus chassis is being stated as 0846 which is of course total BS. If I can inform people of the true facts then I admit to taking pleasure from that.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-videos/ferrari-330...

dinkel

26,939 posts

258 months

Wednesday 16th July 2014
quotequote all
bow

Butter Face

30,298 posts

160 months

Wednesday 16th July 2014
quotequote all
Just seen Jim Glickenhaus on the Discovery channel, was it this car they said is 'the first road going Ferarri' that he owns??

Andy 308GTB

2,923 posts

221 months

Wednesday 16th July 2014
quotequote all
Butter Face said:
Just seen Jim Glickenhaus on the Discovery channel, was it this car they said is 'the first road going Ferarri' that he owns??
No, that car is a 1947 166

Elex

Original Poster:

458 posts

209 months

Wednesday 16th July 2014
quotequote all
Butter Face said:
Just seen Jim Glickenhaus on the Discovery channel, was it this car they said is 'the first road going Ferarri' that he owns??
The Glickenhaus car that he claims is the original 0846 is the one in the link below.

How he has the gall to go up in front of the crowd at Daytona with this car and tell them it's the original 0846 that won the 24 Hours race there in 1967 beggars belief.

Note how he says that he had owned the car for 15 years yet he didn't buy the replica from David Piper until the year 2000 and this video was made at least 3 years ago. Also the original 0846 never raced at Spa and was never raced by Jackie Stewart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb99JKo08JU

dinkel

26,939 posts

258 months

Thursday 17th July 2014
quotequote all
John Hindhaugh knows his stuff. Maybe ask him?