Forghieri speaks on the Glickenhaus car
Discussion
Napolis said:
Once again into the Twilight Zone.
The First Amendment clearly allows me and others to say what is true.
0846 the only P3/4 was originally built early in 1966 as a P3 by Ferrari. It was modified in December 1966 to accept a P4 engine and its wheelbase was decreased P3 2412mm to P4 2400mm.[7] It retained its P3 nose and chassis and vestigial P3 engine mounts becoming a P 3/4. This vehicle was damaged in an accident at Le Mans and was discarded by Ferrari.[8] Recently, many components of the original P3/4 0846 including its original P 3/4 chassis have resurfaced in the possession of exotic car collector and enthusiast James Glickenhaus, a former movie director and stock exchange magnate. Although both he and David Piper (from whom he acquired the car) thought it one of three replica P4 chassis constructed with the blessing of Enzo Ferrari in the mid-seventies from Factory P4 Chassis Blueprints given to David Piper by Enzo Ferrari, a recent "Death Bed Statement" of Tom Meade's confirms that Tom Meade bought, Directly From Enzo Ferrari, in the early seventies, Ferrari P3/4 0846's original fire damaged chassis which had been put in the Ferrari Factory Scrap Yard after 0846's accident at Le Mans in 1967 and later sold 0846's original P 3/4 chassis to the original chassis maker who repaired and sold it, unbeknownst to David Piper, who thought the original chassis maker was making three new P4 Chassis from the original P4 chassis blueprints Enzo Ferrari gave to him. This dovetails with Mauro Forghieri's written statement that 0846's original chassis was scrapped not destroyed and that "the modification of the chassis with vestigial mounts etc." "of course" could have been done by Ferrari. 0846's Original P3/4 Chassis is different from, and can not be made from P4 Blueprints.[9] Nearly all of the tube frame chassis and other components from the original wrecked P3/4 0846 are part the car owned by James Glickenhaus today.[10] This discovery has stirred debate. The Ferrari Market Letter recently reported: "While Ferrari insists that 0846 was scrapped and is no more, a car exists with strong claims to be the resurrection of that car." Its tube frame chassis appears to be a P3 Chassis modified to hold a P4 engine, as was the case with 0846 exclusively, and the damage from two contemporary racing accidents appears in the frame as well. The car's transmission, engine heads, and steering rack also include the correct Le Mans scrutinizing marks, linking them to P3 0846 and P3/4 0846 of 1966 and 1967. P3/4 0846 was road tested by Car and Driver magazine.[11]
Since 2002, Ferrari S.p.A. has continuously published the fact on their official web site (in the owners section) that in Ferrari S.p.A's sole discretion Ferrari P3/4 Chassis 0846 has been owned by James Glickenhaus since July 2000, when he bought it from David Piper. The legal identity of this particular car that James Glickenhaus has owned since July 2000 as published by Ferrari S.p.A. on their copyrighted web site was established when James Glickenhaus informed Ferrari S.p.A. that he was registering this car as 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 Chassis 0846 with US Motor Vehicle Authorities in 2000 and if Ferrari believed this was not true that they had the duty to act within a two year period which they did not. "The common law doctrine of estoppel by acquiescence is applied when one party gives legal notice to a second party of a fact or claim, and the second party fails to challenge or refute that claim within a reasonable time. The second party is said to have acquiesced to the claim, and is estopped from later challenging it, or making a counterclaim. The doctrine is similar to, and often applied with, estoppel by laches." After the 2014 Amelia Island Concours noted Ferrari Historian Keith Bluemel clearly reported in Cavallino Magazine that Ferrari 330 P 3/4 0846 owned by Jim Glickenhaus attended that Concours. [12]
In the Official Ferrari Publication Magazine #9 there's an article on Glickenhaus's 512S Modulo, his 330 P3/4 0846 "The Ferrari P 3/4" and Flavio Manzoni the new head of Ferrari Design featuring a photo of Glickenhaus's Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 that he sent to Ferrari as restored by Glickenhaus as a coupe before he restored her as a Spyder.
Ferrari has inspected 0846 as owned by me. After that inspection Ferrari produced and sold me P4 parts that enabled me to restore 0846 to the condition she was when Ferrari asked for the photograph which they once again in their sole discretion recently published and identified as "The Ferrari P 3/4" which of course there was only one of Chassis 0846. "DeathBed statements are not barred in courts of law as "Hearsay" and Tom Meade's legally binding statement leads a clear path from where MF last placed 0846's original chassis to where it is today. All of this is clear public record and has been for many, many years. Once again there is nothing new here except of course the title of this thread which states opinion as fact. "Forghieri speaks:" fact "Glickenhaus/Piper #0003 is NOT P3/4 0846" SR's opinion and linking them together as if MF said "Glickenhaus/Piper #0003 is NOT P3/4 0846" which is NOT a quote from MF speaks for itself. MF words are clearly quoted. They speak for themselves. Others have clearly stated what happened under MF's cross examination. Once again SR goes on ignore. Once again should any of you think anything he says need an answer from me get in touch.
Jump up ^ Michael L Twite, The World's Racing Cars, Fourth Edition, 1971, page 114
2.Jump up ^ "The Last Ferrari To Win The 24 Hours of Le Mans - The 1965 Ferrari 250 LM At Amelia Island". mycarquest.com.
3.Jump up ^ Katya Kazakina (22 November 2013). "Ferrari 250 LM Sells for Record $14.3 Million in New York". Bloomberg.
4.Jump up ^ "1964 Ferrari 250 LM by Carrozzeria Scaglietti". RM Auctions.
5.Jump up ^ M.L. Twite, The World's Racing Cars, Fourth Edition, 1971, page 109
6.Jump up ^ "Ferrari 330/P4". Road & Track (May 1967): 114–116.
7.Jump up ^ "Ferrari" Doug Nye Hans Tanner Six addition Page 408 wheelbase "decreased" P3 vs.P4
8.Jump up ^ "330 P3/4 Chassis 0846". Veloce Today. Retrieved August 1, 2006.
9.Jump up ^ "Ferrari P3/4 0846". p45c. Retrieved April 13, 2014.
10.Jump up ^ "1967 Ferrari 330 P 3/4 Chassis 0846".
11.Jump up ^ http://www.caranddriver.com/features/13632/sport-i...
12.Jump up ^ "Ferrari P3/4 0846". p45c. Retrieved April 13, 2014.
13.Jump up ^ "The Beast of Turin". Car and Driver (September 2006): 86–93.
14.Jump up ^ "Ferrari P 4/5 by Pininfarina and James Glickenhaus". FerrariP45.com. Retrieved August 1, 2006.
15.Jump up ^ "Ferrari 612 P4/5". AutoExpress. Retrieved August 9, 2006.
Cheers
The First Amendment does not allow you to say what is NOT true, but it does allow me to say what IS true.The First Amendment clearly allows me and others to say what is true.
0846 the only P3/4 was originally built early in 1966 as a P3 by Ferrari. It was modified in December 1966 to accept a P4 engine and its wheelbase was decreased P3 2412mm to P4 2400mm.[7] It retained its P3 nose and chassis and vestigial P3 engine mounts becoming a P 3/4. This vehicle was damaged in an accident at Le Mans and was discarded by Ferrari.[8] Recently, many components of the original P3/4 0846 including its original P 3/4 chassis have resurfaced in the possession of exotic car collector and enthusiast James Glickenhaus, a former movie director and stock exchange magnate. Although both he and David Piper (from whom he acquired the car) thought it one of three replica P4 chassis constructed with the blessing of Enzo Ferrari in the mid-seventies from Factory P4 Chassis Blueprints given to David Piper by Enzo Ferrari, a recent "Death Bed Statement" of Tom Meade's confirms that Tom Meade bought, Directly From Enzo Ferrari, in the early seventies, Ferrari P3/4 0846's original fire damaged chassis which had been put in the Ferrari Factory Scrap Yard after 0846's accident at Le Mans in 1967 and later sold 0846's original P 3/4 chassis to the original chassis maker who repaired and sold it, unbeknownst to David Piper, who thought the original chassis maker was making three new P4 Chassis from the original P4 chassis blueprints Enzo Ferrari gave to him. This dovetails with Mauro Forghieri's written statement that 0846's original chassis was scrapped not destroyed and that "the modification of the chassis with vestigial mounts etc." "of course" could have been done by Ferrari. 0846's Original P3/4 Chassis is different from, and can not be made from P4 Blueprints.[9] Nearly all of the tube frame chassis and other components from the original wrecked P3/4 0846 are part the car owned by James Glickenhaus today.[10] This discovery has stirred debate. The Ferrari Market Letter recently reported: "While Ferrari insists that 0846 was scrapped and is no more, a car exists with strong claims to be the resurrection of that car." Its tube frame chassis appears to be a P3 Chassis modified to hold a P4 engine, as was the case with 0846 exclusively, and the damage from two contemporary racing accidents appears in the frame as well. The car's transmission, engine heads, and steering rack also include the correct Le Mans scrutinizing marks, linking them to P3 0846 and P3/4 0846 of 1966 and 1967. P3/4 0846 was road tested by Car and Driver magazine.[11]
Since 2002, Ferrari S.p.A. has continuously published the fact on their official web site (in the owners section) that in Ferrari S.p.A's sole discretion Ferrari P3/4 Chassis 0846 has been owned by James Glickenhaus since July 2000, when he bought it from David Piper. The legal identity of this particular car that James Glickenhaus has owned since July 2000 as published by Ferrari S.p.A. on their copyrighted web site was established when James Glickenhaus informed Ferrari S.p.A. that he was registering this car as 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 Chassis 0846 with US Motor Vehicle Authorities in 2000 and if Ferrari believed this was not true that they had the duty to act within a two year period which they did not. "The common law doctrine of estoppel by acquiescence is applied when one party gives legal notice to a second party of a fact or claim, and the second party fails to challenge or refute that claim within a reasonable time. The second party is said to have acquiesced to the claim, and is estopped from later challenging it, or making a counterclaim. The doctrine is similar to, and often applied with, estoppel by laches." After the 2014 Amelia Island Concours noted Ferrari Historian Keith Bluemel clearly reported in Cavallino Magazine that Ferrari 330 P 3/4 0846 owned by Jim Glickenhaus attended that Concours. [12]
In the Official Ferrari Publication Magazine #9 there's an article on Glickenhaus's 512S Modulo, his 330 P3/4 0846 "The Ferrari P 3/4" and Flavio Manzoni the new head of Ferrari Design featuring a photo of Glickenhaus's Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 that he sent to Ferrari as restored by Glickenhaus as a coupe before he restored her as a Spyder.
Ferrari has inspected 0846 as owned by me. After that inspection Ferrari produced and sold me P4 parts that enabled me to restore 0846 to the condition she was when Ferrari asked for the photograph which they once again in their sole discretion recently published and identified as "The Ferrari P 3/4" which of course there was only one of Chassis 0846. "DeathBed statements are not barred in courts of law as "Hearsay" and Tom Meade's legally binding statement leads a clear path from where MF last placed 0846's original chassis to where it is today. All of this is clear public record and has been for many, many years. Once again there is nothing new here except of course the title of this thread which states opinion as fact. "Forghieri speaks:" fact "Glickenhaus/Piper #0003 is NOT P3/4 0846" SR's opinion and linking them together as if MF said "Glickenhaus/Piper #0003 is NOT P3/4 0846" which is NOT a quote from MF speaks for itself. MF words are clearly quoted. They speak for themselves. Others have clearly stated what happened under MF's cross examination. Once again SR goes on ignore. Once again should any of you think anything he says need an answer from me get in touch.
Jump up ^ Michael L Twite, The World's Racing Cars, Fourth Edition, 1971, page 114
2.Jump up ^ "The Last Ferrari To Win The 24 Hours of Le Mans - The 1965 Ferrari 250 LM At Amelia Island". mycarquest.com.
3.Jump up ^ Katya Kazakina (22 November 2013). "Ferrari 250 LM Sells for Record $14.3 Million in New York". Bloomberg.
4.Jump up ^ "1964 Ferrari 250 LM by Carrozzeria Scaglietti". RM Auctions.
5.Jump up ^ M.L. Twite, The World's Racing Cars, Fourth Edition, 1971, page 109
6.Jump up ^ "Ferrari 330/P4". Road & Track (May 1967): 114–116.
7.Jump up ^ "Ferrari" Doug Nye Hans Tanner Six addition Page 408 wheelbase "decreased" P3 vs.P4
8.Jump up ^ "330 P3/4 Chassis 0846". Veloce Today. Retrieved August 1, 2006.
9.Jump up ^ "Ferrari P3/4 0846". p45c. Retrieved April 13, 2014.
10.Jump up ^ "1967 Ferrari 330 P 3/4 Chassis 0846".
11.Jump up ^ http://www.caranddriver.com/features/13632/sport-i...
12.Jump up ^ "Ferrari P3/4 0846". p45c. Retrieved April 13, 2014.
13.Jump up ^ "The Beast of Turin". Car and Driver (September 2006): 86–93.
14.Jump up ^ "Ferrari P 4/5 by Pininfarina and James Glickenhaus". FerrariP45.com. Retrieved August 1, 2006.
15.Jump up ^ "Ferrari 612 P4/5". AutoExpress. Retrieved August 9, 2006.
Cheers
Edited by Napolis on Wednesday 18th March 14:57
Edited by Napolis on Wednesday 18th March 15:01
Edited by Napolis on Wednesday 18th March 15:09
330 P3 #0846 was modified and put out by Ferrari in November, 1966 as a 330 P3/4, the "prototype P4".
0846's wheelbase both as a P3 and P3/4 remained the same at 2400mm. Source Mauro Forghieri - the designer of P3 and P3/4 0846. Only the P3/412P and 412P cars 0844, 0848, 0850 and 0854 ever had a wheelbase of 2412mm and this was when the ZF 5DS gearbox was installed in them, not the tipo 593 and tipo 603R Ferrari gearboxes. 0846 as a P3 or as P3/4 never had a ZF 5DS gearbox installed in it.
0846 P3/4 did not retain the P3 engine mounts. The rear of the chassis was transformed and was modified in the correct way to accept the P4 engine.
There is no conclusive proof that the original 0846 chassis has resurfaced in the possession of James Glickenhaus.
Tom Meade told Wayne Ausbrooks that he had no recollection of ever having the chassis 0846. This was also posted on Ferrari Chat while he was still alive and was not contested thus disproving Tom Meade's deathbed statement. There is no proof whatsoever that Tom Meade sold the chassis of 0846 to the original chassis maker.
There is no conclusive proof that the original wrecked chassis of 0846 that won Daytona in 1967 etc is part of the car owned by JG today.
Mauro Forghieri did not say - "the modification of the chassis with vestigial mounts etc." "of course" could have been done by Ferrari.
What Mauro Forghieri actually did state in writing, which has been authenticated, after looking at the pictures of the engine mountings on the Glickenhaus chassis is: "Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount." thus proving the Glickenhaus chassis is not 0846.
The Ferrari factory has not physically inspected the chassis of JG.
Ferrari have not "published" on their official website that Ferrari P3/4 Chassis 0846 has been owned by James Glickenhaus since July 2000, when he bought it from David Piper.
Edited by Elex on Thursday 19th March 11:20
Elex said:
JG has conveniently put me on ignore as he will not answer valid questions. Please someone ask him to answer the following:
1. When did the Ferrari factory physically inspect your chassis?
2. What did Ing. Forghieri say about the conclusion in my first post in this thread as below? You really must have asked him about that.
"According to Mauro Forghieri, the Glickenhaus chassis is not the original 0846."
3. Please post the full exchange with no omissions whatsoever between yourself and Ing. Forghieri so we can correctly interpret his statements.
There is no ignore function in this forum, i just suspect James has deemed your posts unworthy of a response as he's stated his points, he's provided proof and you don't want to let it go.1. When did the Ferrari factory physically inspect your chassis?
2. What did Ing. Forghieri say about the conclusion in my first post in this thread as below? You really must have asked him about that.
"According to Mauro Forghieri, the Glickenhaus chassis is not the original 0846."
3. Please post the full exchange with no omissions whatsoever between yourself and Ing. Forghieri so we can correctly interpret his statements.
Edited by Elex on Wednesday 18th March 15:32
If you truly believe that James Glickenhaus is perpetuating some form of fraud then why don't you go and speak to a lawyer and see if they will represent you in a legal case that you could bring against him, or alternatively go to Ferrari with your proof and see if you can convince them to put out a definitive public statement with regards to James' car.
But to be honest i don't think it's worth doing either for one simple reason, Ferrari are infamous in how they deal with people who produce or attempt to pass off Ferraris that have been modified and claimed as another car, or simply aren't Ferraris.
They have in the past gone as far as getting cars crushed or suing owners that up until that point did have a good relationship with Ferrari.
Therefore if Ferrari had any doubt about the authenticity of the P3/4 0846 then at the very least they would cease to supply anything or work with to James and they certainly wouldn't let him put a Ferrari badge on his P4/5 and allow it to be called a Ferrari model.
Also if they genuinely thought that the P3/4 was a recreation then you can be sure they would go through the courts to stop James referring to it as the original.
With regards to Mr Forghieri, as i understand it he is an old man now, whilst i have no doubt to his knowledge human memory is not infallible and he is not the singular authority on old Ferraris or even the P3/4, there are a few people who will have similar levels of knowledge and experience with these cars, not many but i'm sure it's greater than 1 and i'm sure they all have different recollections of different parts of the car and will disagree with the others as they think they're correct.
I don't doubt what he says is exactly what he remembers but i do think there's a possibility that he can't remember everything and in some cases what he remembers may not be what actually happened, this can be seen in his statement with regards to how the chassis was modified, he doesn't state that chassis 0846 was modified in a certain way he states that Ferrari wouldn't have modified a chassis in the way that 0846 appears to have been modified, whilst that may be true, there is also the possibility that for whatever reason they did modify the chassis in a different way to usual, be it to expedite the work on the car or perhaps use it as a mule to test a different form of repair on the car, after all they were already converting it from a P3 to a P4 which obviously would be completely different to the way they build a new P4 and as such anyone with experience with building a P4 would look at 0846 and categorically state that it hasn't been built in the way he remembers building them and therefore it's not a factory car when in fact it is.
So whilst we mustn't write off what Mr Forghieri states we also mustn't take it as gospel but merely use it in conjunction with all the evidence at hand and decide how much authority we must attach to it.
Sorry for the long post but to be honest i don't think you'll ever change your mind on this so perhaps it's time to put up or shut up (no offence) and see what your options are.
If you think you have compelling proof/evidence that 0846 and the Glickenhaus car aren't the same then go to Ferrari and show them this and ask them to put out a definitive statement one way or the other because in my opinion you could well be damaging the value of this car by causing doubts with regards to its authenticity and if James decides he's had enough and took you to court to recover the damages even if he lost (which is less likely that him winning) you would be looking at a substantial legal bill and if he won (which is more likely than him losing as he has a statement from Ferrari saying that his car is 0846) then you could end up in a financial position that no-one ever wants to be in.
Just think is it really worth it, if you were in a position to buy the car and were trying to buy it then perhaps it would be but right now it's just a car someone owns and whether it's the original or not does not materially affect your life so perhaps now is the time to move on, i'm not saying you have to change your mind about the car but until you can either get Ferrari or a court to decide on this car then it might be in your best interest to keep quiet about it.
Silent1 said:
There is no ignore function in this forum, i just suspect James has deemed your posts unworthy of a response as he's stated his points, he's provided proof and you don't want to let it go.
If you truly believe that James Glickenhaus is perpetuating some form of fraud then why don't you go and speak to a lawyer and see if they will represent you in a legal case that you could bring against him, or alternatively go to Ferrari with your proof and see if you can convince them to put out a definitive public statement with regards to James' car.
But to be honest i don't think it's worth doing either for one simple reason, Ferrari are infamous in how they deal with people who produce or attempt to pass off Ferraris that have been modified and claimed as another car, or simply aren't Ferraris.
They have in the past gone as far as getting cars crushed or suing owners that up until that point did have a good relationship with Ferrari.
Therefore if Ferrari had any doubt about the authenticity of the P3/4 0846 then at the very least they would cease to supply anything or work with to James and they certainly wouldn't let him put a Ferrari badge on his P4/5 and allow it to be called a Ferrari model.
Also if they genuinely thought that the P3/4 was a recreation then you can be sure they would go through the courts to stop James referring to it as the original.
With regards to Mr Forghieri, as i understand it he is an old man now, whilst i have no doubt to his knowledge human memory is not infallible and he is not the singular authority on old Ferraris or even the P3/4, there are a few people who will have similar levels of knowledge and experience with these cars, not many but i'm sure it's greater than 1 and i'm sure they all have different recollections of different parts of the car and will disagree with the others as they think they're correct.
I don't doubt what he says is exactly what he remembers but i do think there's a possibility that he can't remember everything and in some cases what he remembers may not be what actually happened, this can be seen in his statement with regards to how the chassis was modified, he doesn't state that chassis 0846 was modified in a certain way he states that Ferrari wouldn't have modified a chassis in the way that 0846 appears to have been modified, whilst that may be true, there is also the possibility that for whatever reason they did modify the chassis in a different way to usual, be it to expedite the work on the car or perhaps use it as a mule to test a different form of repair on the car, after all they were already converting it from a P3 to a P4 which obviously would be completely different to the way they build a new P4 and as such anyone with experience with building a P4 would look at 0846 and categorically state that it hasn't been built in the way he remembers building them and therefore it's not a factory car when in fact it is.
So whilst we mustn't write off what Mr Forghieri states we also mustn't take it as gospel but merely use it in conjunction with all the evidence at hand and decide how much authority we must attach to it.
Sorry for the long post but to be honest i don't think you'll ever change your mind on this so perhaps it's time to put up or shut up (no offence) and see what your options are.
If you think you have compelling proof/evidence that 0846 and the Glickenhaus car aren't the same then go to Ferrari and show them this and ask them to put out a definitive statement one way or the other because in my opinion you could well be damaging the value of this car by causing doubts with regards to its authenticity and if James decides he's had enough and took you to court to recover the damages even if he lost (which is less likely that him winning) you would be looking at a substantial legal bill and if he won (which is more likely than him losing as he has a statement from Ferrari saying that his car is 0846) then you could end up in a financial position that no-one ever wants to be in.
Just think is it really worth it, if you were in a position to buy the car and were trying to buy it then perhaps it would be but right now it's just a car someone owns and whether it's the original or not does not materially affect your life so perhaps now is the time to move on, i'm not saying you have to change your mind about the car but until you can either get Ferrari or a court to decide on this car then it might be in your best interest to keep quiet about it.
JG has not provided any proof in his alleged (not authenticated) communication with Mauro Forghieri other than underlining that MF and his Racing Department did not carry out the modifications to JG's chassis. As Mauro Forghieri's Racing Department did carry out the engine mount mods to the original 0846 chassis, it proves JG's chassis is not 0846.If you truly believe that James Glickenhaus is perpetuating some form of fraud then why don't you go and speak to a lawyer and see if they will represent you in a legal case that you could bring against him, or alternatively go to Ferrari with your proof and see if you can convince them to put out a definitive public statement with regards to James' car.
But to be honest i don't think it's worth doing either for one simple reason, Ferrari are infamous in how they deal with people who produce or attempt to pass off Ferraris that have been modified and claimed as another car, or simply aren't Ferraris.
They have in the past gone as far as getting cars crushed or suing owners that up until that point did have a good relationship with Ferrari.
Therefore if Ferrari had any doubt about the authenticity of the P3/4 0846 then at the very least they would cease to supply anything or work with to James and they certainly wouldn't let him put a Ferrari badge on his P4/5 and allow it to be called a Ferrari model.
Also if they genuinely thought that the P3/4 was a recreation then you can be sure they would go through the courts to stop James referring to it as the original.
With regards to Mr Forghieri, as i understand it he is an old man now, whilst i have no doubt to his knowledge human memory is not infallible and he is not the singular authority on old Ferraris or even the P3/4, there are a few people who will have similar levels of knowledge and experience with these cars, not many but i'm sure it's greater than 1 and i'm sure they all have different recollections of different parts of the car and will disagree with the others as they think they're correct.
I don't doubt what he says is exactly what he remembers but i do think there's a possibility that he can't remember everything and in some cases what he remembers may not be what actually happened, this can be seen in his statement with regards to how the chassis was modified, he doesn't state that chassis 0846 was modified in a certain way he states that Ferrari wouldn't have modified a chassis in the way that 0846 appears to have been modified, whilst that may be true, there is also the possibility that for whatever reason they did modify the chassis in a different way to usual, be it to expedite the work on the car or perhaps use it as a mule to test a different form of repair on the car, after all they were already converting it from a P3 to a P4 which obviously would be completely different to the way they build a new P4 and as such anyone with experience with building a P4 would look at 0846 and categorically state that it hasn't been built in the way he remembers building them and therefore it's not a factory car when in fact it is.
So whilst we mustn't write off what Mr Forghieri states we also mustn't take it as gospel but merely use it in conjunction with all the evidence at hand and decide how much authority we must attach to it.
Sorry for the long post but to be honest i don't think you'll ever change your mind on this so perhaps it's time to put up or shut up (no offence) and see what your options are.
If you think you have compelling proof/evidence that 0846 and the Glickenhaus car aren't the same then go to Ferrari and show them this and ask them to put out a definitive statement one way or the other because in my opinion you could well be damaging the value of this car by causing doubts with regards to its authenticity and if James decides he's had enough and took you to court to recover the damages even if he lost (which is less likely that him winning) you would be looking at a substantial legal bill and if he won (which is more likely than him losing as he has a statement from Ferrari saying that his car is 0846) then you could end up in a financial position that no-one ever wants to be in.
Just think is it really worth it, if you were in a position to buy the car and were trying to buy it then perhaps it would be but right now it's just a car someone owns and whether it's the original or not does not materially affect your life so perhaps now is the time to move on, i'm not saying you have to change your mind about the car but until you can either get Ferrari or a court to decide on this car then it might be in your best interest to keep quiet about it.
With respect, may I remind you who Ing. Mauro Forghieri is. As Chief Technical Director of Ferrari's Racing Department between 1961 and 1984 he oversaw/designed all the F1 and prototypes including 0846. There is no higher authority on 0846 than Ing. Forghieri.
Additionally JG cites in his 0846 pdf (pages 63 - 64) the Technical Data Sheet (see below) of 0846 for 1967 as proof that the engine mountings on his chassis identify it as 0846, whereas the details in the Technical Data Sheet cited actually prove it is not 0846:
"TECHNICAL DATA SHEET FOR 330 P3/P4 (1967) Chassis N. 0846.
Transformation of a P3 model according to the characteristics of the P4 model. Chassis Type 593/603. Transformation of the tubular part of the rear of the chassis for new type 237 (P4) engine mountings."
Although he doesn't say so the above is lifted straight from Christian Huet's 1995 Cavalleria book Ferrari P3/412P. James's chassis has been modded to accept a 312 Formula 1 engine, that he bought the car with, which has similar mountings/co-ordinates to a P4 engine but it has not been done in the way cited above. The tubular part of the rear of the chassis has not been "transformed" for the new P4 type mountings. All that has been done are adaptors have been bolted on so that the 312 F1 engine will fit. James's replica chassis is not type 593/603 (P3/P4). It's still just type 593 (P3).
For 1967 0846's chassis was modified and transformed to accept a supporting P4 engine. However, the way the engine mount mods have been carried out on JG's chassis the adaptors do not take advantage of the added rigidity of the P4 engine block over the P3 block. On JG's chassis the P3 engine mounts are still in place. It does not have P4 engine mounts. It just has the P3 mountings plus the bolt on adaptors. The added rigidity that the P4 block would bring is lost by these bolt on adaptors. They compromise the rigidity. This is more proof that this chassis is not 0846. Also to be clear, James's car actually has a 312 F1 block in it, not a P4 block.
Don't forget that P3 0846 was used as the design basis for the P4. At the end of November, 1966 the Ferrari team, headed by Ing. Forghieri, took 0846 to Daytona for an unprecedented testing session to make sure they got the car right for the race proper in February, 1967 which 0846 won. The car broke all previous speed records in the test. As Ing. Forghieri said in his email to me regarding the engine mountings on JG's chassis: "Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount." Ferrari would never have gone to the expense of taking a team of people with P3/4 0846 (and P4 0856) from Maranello to Daytona to test a car with a less than optimum and compromised solution of mounting the tipo 237 P4 engine that was designed to support and strengthen the chassis.
James does not have a statement from Ferrari saying his car is 0846. Ferrari have said that the chassis of 0846 was definitively scrapped due to its race history and fire damages suffered. They added that "if this is the case" that eventual pieces were taken from the trash container they should not have been used to rebuild or revival a car that was written off and that 0846 had a sad conclusion. That is not a statement from Ferrari that his car is 0846.
Edited by Elex on Wednesday 25th March 16:08
The TECHNICAL DATA SHEET that Mr Glickenhaus cites as proof and that identifies his chassis as 0846, but actually proves it is not 0846 also states that the wheelbase of the original 1966 P3 0846, as well as 1966 P3 0844 and 0848, was 2400mm and NOT 2412mm as he says.
The same TECHNICAL DATA SHEET that he cites states that P3/412P (1967) Chassis N. 0844; 0848 and 412P (1967) Chassis N. 0850; 0854 had the wheelbase of 2412mm when they had the ZF 5DS gearbox installed. 0846 never had a ZF 5DS gearbox installed and the wheelbase was never at 2412mm. 0846 as 1966 P3 had the Ferrari tipo 593 gearbox and as 1967 P3/4 had the Ferrari tipo 603R gearbox.
The same TECHNICAL DATA SHEET that he cites states that P3/412P (1967) Chassis N. 0844; 0848 and 412P (1967) Chassis N. 0850; 0854 had the wheelbase of 2412mm when they had the ZF 5DS gearbox installed. 0846 never had a ZF 5DS gearbox installed and the wheelbase was never at 2412mm. 0846 as 1966 P3 had the Ferrari tipo 593 gearbox and as 1967 P3/4 had the Ferrari tipo 603R gearbox.
Edited by Elex on Wednesday 25th March 18:45
Elex said:
JG has not provided any proof in his alleged (not authenticated) communication with Mauro Forghieri other than underlining that MF and his Racing Department did not carry out the modifications to JG's chassis. As Mauro Forghieri's Racing Department did carry out the engine mount mods to the original 0846 chassis, it proves JG's chassis is not 0846.
With respect, may I remind you who Ing. Mauro Forghieri is. As Chief Technical Director of Ferrari's Racing Department between 1961 and 1984 he oversaw/designed all the F1 and prototypes including 0846. There is no higher authority on 0846 than Ing. Forghieri.
Additionally JG cites in his 0846 pdf (pages 63 - 64) the Technical Data Sheet (see below) of 0846 for 1967 as proof that the engine mountings on his chassis identify it as 0846, whereas the details in the Technical Data Sheet cited actually prove it is not 0846:
"TECHNICAL DATA SHEET FOR 330 P3/P4 (1967) Chassis N. 0846.
Transformation of a P3 model according to the characteristics of the P4 model. Chassis Type 593/603. Transformation of the tubular part of the rear of the chassis for new type 237 (P4) engine mountings."
Although he doesn't say so the above is lifted straight from Christian Huet's 1995 Cavalleria book Ferrari P3/412P. James's chassis has been modded to accept a 312 Formula 1 engine, that he bought the car with, which has similar mountings/co-ordinates to a P4 engine but it has not been done in the way cited above. The tubular part of the rear of the chassis has not been "transformed" for the new P4 type mountings. All that has been done are adaptors have been bolted on so that the 312 F1 engine will fit. James's replica chassis is not type 593/603 (P3/P4). It's still just type 593 (P3).
For 1967 0846's chassis was modified and transformed to accept a supporting P4 engine. However, the way the engine mount mods have been carried out on JG's chassis the adaptors do not take advantage of the added rigidity of the P4 engine block over the P3 block. On JG's chassis the P3 engine mounts are still in place. It does not have P4 engine mounts. It just has the P3 mountings plus the bolt on adaptors. The added rigidity that the P4 block would bring is lost by these bolt on adaptors. They compromise the rigidity. This is more proof that this chassis is not 0846. Also to be clear, James's car actually has a 312 F1 block in it, not a P4 block.
Don't forget that P3 0846 was used as the design basis for the P4. At the end of November, 1966 the Ferrari team, headed by Ing. Forghieri, took 0846 to Daytona for an unprecedented testing session to make sure they got the car right for the race proper in February, 1967 which 0846 won. The car broke all previous speed records in the test. As Ing. Forghieri said in his email to me regarding the engine mountings on JG's chassis: "Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount." Ferrari would never have gone to the expense of taking a team of people with P3/4 0846 (and P4 0856) from Maranello to Daytona to test a car with a less than optimum and compromised solution of mounting the tipo 237 P4 engine that was designed to support and strengthen the chassis.
James does not have a statement from Ferrari saying his car is 0846. Ferrari have said that the chassis of 0846 was definitively scrapped due to its race history and fire damages suffered. They added that "if this is the case" that eventual pieces were taken from the trash container they should not have been used to rebuild or revival a car that was written off and that 0846 had a sad conclusion. That is not a statement from Ferrari that his car is 0846.
With respect, may I remind you who Ing. Mauro Forghieri is. As Chief Technical Director of Ferrari's Racing Department between 1961 and 1984 he oversaw/designed all the F1 and prototypes including 0846. There is no higher authority on 0846 than Ing. Forghieri.
Additionally JG cites in his 0846 pdf (pages 63 - 64) the Technical Data Sheet (see below) of 0846 for 1967 as proof that the engine mountings on his chassis identify it as 0846, whereas the details in the Technical Data Sheet cited actually prove it is not 0846:
"TECHNICAL DATA SHEET FOR 330 P3/P4 (1967) Chassis N. 0846.
Transformation of a P3 model according to the characteristics of the P4 model. Chassis Type 593/603. Transformation of the tubular part of the rear of the chassis for new type 237 (P4) engine mountings."
Although he doesn't say so the above is lifted straight from Christian Huet's 1995 Cavalleria book Ferrari P3/412P. James's chassis has been modded to accept a 312 Formula 1 engine, that he bought the car with, which has similar mountings/co-ordinates to a P4 engine but it has not been done in the way cited above. The tubular part of the rear of the chassis has not been "transformed" for the new P4 type mountings. All that has been done are adaptors have been bolted on so that the 312 F1 engine will fit. James's replica chassis is not type 593/603 (P3/P4). It's still just type 593 (P3).
For 1967 0846's chassis was modified and transformed to accept a supporting P4 engine. However, the way the engine mount mods have been carried out on JG's chassis the adaptors do not take advantage of the added rigidity of the P4 engine block over the P3 block. On JG's chassis the P3 engine mounts are still in place. It does not have P4 engine mounts. It just has the P3 mountings plus the bolt on adaptors. The added rigidity that the P4 block would bring is lost by these bolt on adaptors. They compromise the rigidity. This is more proof that this chassis is not 0846. Also to be clear, James's car actually has a 312 F1 block in it, not a P4 block.
Don't forget that P3 0846 was used as the design basis for the P4. At the end of November, 1966 the Ferrari team, headed by Ing. Forghieri, took 0846 to Daytona for an unprecedented testing session to make sure they got the car right for the race proper in February, 1967 which 0846 won. The car broke all previous speed records in the test. As Ing. Forghieri said in his email to me regarding the engine mountings on JG's chassis: "Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount." Ferrari would never have gone to the expense of taking a team of people with P3/4 0846 (and P4 0856) from Maranello to Daytona to test a car with a less than optimum and compromised solution of mounting the tipo 237 P4 engine that was designed to support and strengthen the chassis.
James does not have a statement from Ferrari saying his car is 0846. Ferrari have said that the chassis of 0846 was definitively scrapped due to its race history and fire damages suffered. They added that "if this is the case" that eventual pieces were taken from the trash container they should not have been used to rebuild or revival a car that was written off and that 0846 had a sad conclusion. That is not a statement from Ferrari that his car is 0846.
Edited by Elex on Wednesday 25th March 16:08
Elex said:
The TECHNICAL DATA Sheet that Mr Glickenhaus cites as proof and that identifies his chassis is 0846, but actually proves it is not 0846 also states that the wheelbase of the original 1966 P3 0846 as well as 1966 P3 0844 and 0848 was 2400mm and NOT 2412mm as he says.
The same TECHNICAL DATA SHEET that he cites states that P3/412P (1967) Chassis N. 0844; 0848 and 412P (1967) Chassis N. 0850; 0854 had the wheelbase of 2412mm when they had the ZF 5DS gearbox installed. 0846 never had a ZF 5DS gearbox installed and the wheelbase was never at 2412mm. 0846 as 1966 P3 had the Ferrari tipo 593 gearbox and as 1967 P3/4 had the Ferrari tipo 603R gearbox.
I can see you're heavily emotionally invested in this, so instead of posting about it on forums why don't you go to Ferrari with your evidence and see what they say, after all that will give a definitive answer in the eyes of the company that stands to lose/gain from it.The same TECHNICAL DATA SHEET that he cites states that P3/412P (1967) Chassis N. 0844; 0848 and 412P (1967) Chassis N. 0850; 0854 had the wheelbase of 2412mm when they had the ZF 5DS gearbox installed. 0846 never had a ZF 5DS gearbox installed and the wheelbase was never at 2412mm. 0846 as 1966 P3 had the Ferrari tipo 593 gearbox and as 1967 P3/4 had the Ferrari tipo 603R gearbox.
Edited by Elex on Wednesday 25th March 16:51
I say this because i do genuinely see you care but also the way you're going about it is bound to leave you open to legal recourse from other interested parties, parties that i suspect have more disposable cash than you do (i don't say this to be hurtful, merely to point out that to them it may be an inconsequential sum whether they win or lose).
My dealings with Mr Glickenhaus have been entirely on this forum and in them he has come across as reasonable, likeable and someone who has a long fuse, but even so there is a point at which any person will get fed up and take steps to resolve the problem.
The issue you have is by posting on forums you aren't going to change anyone's mind but you are going to annoy them, if you were proving something then it might be worth causing the irritation but without it all you are doing is burning bridges.
So please, for your own sake either go and speak to Ferrari and try and convince them to put out a statement or drop the matter because from my end (IANAL) it looks like James would be able to take you to court as you are accusing him of perpetuating a fraud for his own monetary gain and in the process could be damaging the value of the car, now like i said i'm not a lawyer but i'm sure he could take you to court even if the likelyhood of winning was low the mere legal costs to you might well be large enough to cause you financial pain and if you lost there's a possibility of you being made bankrupt if you have to pay the costs for both sides.
TL:DR - with your persistence in demanding he admit his car isn't 0846 you're poking a tiger with a stick without the understanding that tigers can and do kill people.
Silent1 said:
I can see you're heavily emotionally invested in this, so instead of posting about it on forums why don't you go to Ferrari with your evidence and see what they say, after all that will give a definitive answer in the eyes of the company that stands to lose/gain from it.
I say this because i do genuinely see you care but also the way you're going about it is bound to leave you open to legal recourse from other interested parties, parties that i suspect have more disposable cash than you do (i don't say this to be hurtful, merely to point out that to them it may be an inconsequential sum whether they win or lose).
My dealings with Mr Glickenhaus have been entirely on this forum and in them he has come across as reasonable, likeable and someone who has a long fuse, but even so there is a point at which any person will get fed up and take steps to resolve the problem.
The issue you have is by posting on forums you aren't going to change anyone's mind but you are going to annoy them, if you were proving something then it might be worth causing the irritation but without it all you are doing is burning bridges.
So please, for your own sake either go and speak to Ferrari and try and convince them to put out a statement or drop the matter because from my end (IANAL) it looks like James would be able to take you to court as you are accusing him of perpetuating a fraud for his own monetary gain and in the process could be damaging the value of the car, now like i said i'm not a lawyer but i'm sure he could take you to court even if the likelyhood of winning was low the mere legal costs to you might well be large enough to cause you financial pain and if you lost there's a possibility of you being made bankrupt if you have to pay the costs for both sides.
TL:DR - with your persistence in demanding he admit his car isn't 0846 you're poking a tiger with a stick without the understanding that tigers can and do kill people.
You obviously don't get it. I've done better than get in touch with Ferrari. I've been in touch with the very man who designed and oversaw the build of Ferrari 330 P3/4 0846. The Glickenhaus chassis is not 0846. Ing. Forghieri's email to me proves it.I say this because i do genuinely see you care but also the way you're going about it is bound to leave you open to legal recourse from other interested parties, parties that i suspect have more disposable cash than you do (i don't say this to be hurtful, merely to point out that to them it may be an inconsequential sum whether they win or lose).
My dealings with Mr Glickenhaus have been entirely on this forum and in them he has come across as reasonable, likeable and someone who has a long fuse, but even so there is a point at which any person will get fed up and take steps to resolve the problem.
The issue you have is by posting on forums you aren't going to change anyone's mind but you are going to annoy them, if you were proving something then it might be worth causing the irritation but without it all you are doing is burning bridges.
So please, for your own sake either go and speak to Ferrari and try and convince them to put out a statement or drop the matter because from my end (IANAL) it looks like James would be able to take you to court as you are accusing him of perpetuating a fraud for his own monetary gain and in the process could be damaging the value of the car, now like i said i'm not a lawyer but i'm sure he could take you to court even if the likelyhood of winning was low the mere legal costs to you might well be large enough to cause you financial pain and if you lost there's a possibility of you being made bankrupt if you have to pay the costs for both sides.
TL:DR - with your persistence in demanding he admit his car isn't 0846 you're poking a tiger with a stick without the understanding that tigers can and do kill people.
Elex, I've asked you this before, but really what is your beef with Napolis? It's obvious you're very versed within this area, but to be so wound up by something that, frankly, has nothing to do with you is verging on the crazy. I don't like it when threads are closed, but in this rare case I think this one should be, but to protect you. As has just been mentioned, you are stating things as 'fact' (ie the car has never been checked) that you just cannot know, and perhaps the owners tolerance of such things will wear thin. It's great to have an opinion on things, and even if you're 99.9% right, sometimes it's good to back off just a little - or in this case, a lot.
Anyway, as this is a car forum I thought I'd post this picture that landed in my inbox this week, genuinely think it looks stunning -
Anyway, as this is a car forum I thought I'd post this picture that landed in my inbox this week, genuinely think it looks stunning -
Ing. Mauro Forghieri's involvement with 0846 and input to its development should not be underestimated. He not only designed the car and oversaw its build but he also attended the races the car participated in. As stated previously, there is no higher authority on 0846. His contribution to Ferrari's racing history is second to none. The man is a genius and an absolute living legend of the highest order.
Petrus1983 said:
Elex, I've asked you this before, but really what is your beef with Napolis? It's obvious you're very versed within this area, but to be so wound up by something that, frankly, has nothing to do with you is verging on the crazy. I don't like it when threads are closed, but in this rare case I think this one should be, but to protect you. As has just been mentioned, you are stating things as 'fact' (ie the car has never been checked) that you just cannot know, and perhaps the owners tolerance of such things will wear thin. It's great to have an opinion on things, and even if you're 99.9% right, sometimes it's good to back off just a little - or in this case, a lot.
Anyway, as this is a car forum I thought I'd post this picture that landed in my inbox this week, genuinely think it looks stunning -
I have no beef with Napolis/James Glickenhaus other than his relentless claiming that the replica he bought from David Piper is the genuine Ferrari 330 P3/4 0846 despite the evidence he has provided in his 0846 pdf and in public forums to support those claims not standing up to scrutiny. Things like Jim stating that Ferrari have confirmed in writing that he has resurrected 0846 on its original chassis which is a huge statement to have made but no proof of it was ever given despite asking him many times.Anyway, as this is a car forum I thought I'd post this picture that landed in my inbox this week, genuinely think it looks stunning -
The Ferrari factory have not physically inspected JG's chassis. JG, if that is not a fact please prove me wrong here.
That it has nothing to do with me is wrong. It has everything to do with me and every fan of Ferrari racing history.
Yes, SCG 003 is fabulous as are 412P 0854, P4/5, Dino Competizione etc. 412P 0854 is one of my favourite cars of all time. I wish James every success with SCG 003.
Edited by Elex on Thursday 26th March 10:35
When I was little I used to convince my friends I had eleven fingers by counting one hand backwars (10,9,8,7,6) then say "add 5 equals eleven". This confused some of them, but didn't alter the fact that I did only have ten.
What you're doing, is trying to use MrG's documents he says proves what the car IS, for you to say proves it isn't.
What started off as a very interesting thread has turned into what it actually is-a vendetta.
I would love to read about some of your knowledge on Ferrai's, but this one could run for 500 pages (and I think we all know it could too) but nothing would be resolved, and I suspect it would push you closer to a heart attack.
What you're doing, is trying to use MrG's documents he says proves what the car IS, for you to say proves it isn't.
What started off as a very interesting thread has turned into what it actually is-a vendetta.
I would love to read about some of your knowledge on Ferrai's, but this one could run for 500 pages (and I think we all know it could too) but nothing would be resolved, and I suspect it would push you closer to a heart attack.
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