Is the F512M a worthy future classic
Discussion
You can drive a 512 hard and fast. They are a little soft and wide for tight or very windy roads, but full of feel so you can be right on the edge of the natural understeer through a tight corner and then use the huge torque and traction to nail it out. It's not as much fun as chucking a smaller, lighter car around because there's too much front grip management going on (though you'll still be quick) and it is a big, heavy, and in relative terms slightly soft car but it offers 'proper' driving and an event regardless of speed and occasion. On more open corners the body control and grip are actually excellent and you can carry a lot of speed with absolute confidence. This is really what the 512 is about: big speeds over big distances, and to me (I have an M) it feels like it will really do it's best at third and fourth gear speeds, though the law and the fact of long gearing mean you're often in second if you want to hear the top end symphony and getting fairly naughty once high in third. There's so much torque though that being in third is quick enough, but the engine does need to be heard all the way through its range; it's quite glorious. 12 cylinders punching away behind you...
Compared to a 355, the 512 feels much bigger and heavier. It's remarkably refined and comfortable, though always happy to get stuck in. Having driven both models back to back, the 355 was nice for being smaller, having easier steering for quick junctions and having less roll, but the steering also felt utterly lifeless and the engine didn't seem to give anything until 6,000rpm, and I even found it a bit quiet (and it had a tubi). The 512 simply has more feedback (particularly through the steering) and engagement through the drivetrain, the engine always being on note, pulling from low revs but stepping up nicely at 4,000 and screaming to beyond 7,000, and the gearbox feeling like it was built for industrial levels of torque but still being slick and smooth and really nice to use. And, of course, it looks like a proper supercar. I forgot the 355 fairly quickly after getting back in the M.
To the discussion on whether the F512M is an investable classic, I think so. It has the experience as above, plus a number of updates over the TR (titanium condrods, uprated diff, better aircon, the front lights etc), plus the limited production of 501 (from which you can discount crashed ones and the many with a nasty bodykit or spoiler on the back), plus the looks are more distinctive (I prefer the 512TR front but think the rear of the M looks far more modern). I've been approached with offers of nearly three times what I paid for it just over two years ago, but they just don't make them like this anymore and I really think the pre-technology feel and reliability and usability of '90s engineering puts in in a good place for longer term driving pleasure and value. Maybe prices will level or dip slightly with current market conditions, but over time, if someone wants one, they will have to pay for it - there aren't that many to choose from, after all. It's a lovely machine, well worth spending some time getting to know.
Compared to a 355, the 512 feels much bigger and heavier. It's remarkably refined and comfortable, though always happy to get stuck in. Having driven both models back to back, the 355 was nice for being smaller, having easier steering for quick junctions and having less roll, but the steering also felt utterly lifeless and the engine didn't seem to give anything until 6,000rpm, and I even found it a bit quiet (and it had a tubi). The 512 simply has more feedback (particularly through the steering) and engagement through the drivetrain, the engine always being on note, pulling from low revs but stepping up nicely at 4,000 and screaming to beyond 7,000, and the gearbox feeling like it was built for industrial levels of torque but still being slick and smooth and really nice to use. And, of course, it looks like a proper supercar. I forgot the 355 fairly quickly after getting back in the M.
To the discussion on whether the F512M is an investable classic, I think so. It has the experience as above, plus a number of updates over the TR (titanium condrods, uprated diff, better aircon, the front lights etc), plus the limited production of 501 (from which you can discount crashed ones and the many with a nasty bodykit or spoiler on the back), plus the looks are more distinctive (I prefer the 512TR front but think the rear of the M looks far more modern). I've been approached with offers of nearly three times what I paid for it just over two years ago, but they just don't make them like this anymore and I really think the pre-technology feel and reliability and usability of '90s engineering puts in in a good place for longer term driving pleasure and value. Maybe prices will level or dip slightly with current market conditions, but over time, if someone wants one, they will have to pay for it - there aren't that many to choose from, after all. It's a lovely machine, well worth spending some time getting to know.
silber said:
You can drive a 512 hard and fast. They are a little soft and wide for tight or very windy roads, but full of feel so you can be right on the edge of the natural understeer through a tight corner and then use the huge torque and traction to nail it out. It's not as much fun as chucking a smaller, lighter car around because there's too much front grip management going on (though you'll still be quick) and it is a big, heavy, and in relative terms slightly soft car but it offers 'proper' driving and an event regardless of speed and occasion. On more open corners the body control and grip are actually excellent and you can carry a lot of speed with absolute confidence. This is really what the 512 is about: big speeds over big distances, and to me (I have an M) it feels like it will really do it's best at third and fourth gear speeds, though the law and the fact of long gearing mean you're often in second if you want to hear the top end symphony and getting fairly naughty once high in third. There's so much torque though that being in third is quick enough, but the engine does need to be heard all the way through its range; it's quite glorious. 12 cylinders punching away behind you...
Compared to a 355, the 512 feels much bigger and heavier. It's remarkably refined and comfortable, though always happy to get stuck in. Having driven both models back to back, the 355 was nice for being smaller, having easier steering for quick junctions and having less roll, but the steering also felt utterly lifeless and the engine didn't seem to give anything until 6,000rpm, and I even found it a bit quiet (and it had a tubi). The 512 simply has more feedback (particularly through the steering) and engagement through the drivetrain, the engine always being on note, pulling from low revs but stepping up nicely at 4,000 and screaming to beyond 7,000, and the gearbox feeling like it was built for industrial levels of torque but still being slick and smooth and really nice to use. And, of course, it looks like a proper supercar. I forgot the 355 fairly quickly after getting back in the M.
To the discussion on whether the F512M is an investable classic, I think so. It has the experience as above, plus a number of updates over the TR (titanium condrods, uprated diff, better aircon, the front lights etc), plus the limited production of 501 (from which you can discount crashed ones and the many with a nasty bodykit or spoiler on the back), plus the looks are more distinctive (I prefer the 512TR front but think the rear of the M looks far more modern). I've been approached with offers of nearly three times what I paid for it just over two years ago, but they just don't make them like this anymore and I really think the pre-technology feel and reliability and usability of '90s engineering puts in in a good place for longer term driving pleasure and value. Maybe prices will level or dip slightly with current market conditions, but over time, if someone wants one, they will have to pay for it - there aren't that many to choose from, after all. It's a lovely machine, well worth spending some time getting to know.
thank you very much for the write-up - sounds like I will have to drive one when in a position to consider my next purchase. Compared to a 355, the 512 feels much bigger and heavier. It's remarkably refined and comfortable, though always happy to get stuck in. Having driven both models back to back, the 355 was nice for being smaller, having easier steering for quick junctions and having less roll, but the steering also felt utterly lifeless and the engine didn't seem to give anything until 6,000rpm, and I even found it a bit quiet (and it had a tubi). The 512 simply has more feedback (particularly through the steering) and engagement through the drivetrain, the engine always being on note, pulling from low revs but stepping up nicely at 4,000 and screaming to beyond 7,000, and the gearbox feeling like it was built for industrial levels of torque but still being slick and smooth and really nice to use. And, of course, it looks like a proper supercar. I forgot the 355 fairly quickly after getting back in the M.
To the discussion on whether the F512M is an investable classic, I think so. It has the experience as above, plus a number of updates over the TR (titanium condrods, uprated diff, better aircon, the front lights etc), plus the limited production of 501 (from which you can discount crashed ones and the many with a nasty bodykit or spoiler on the back), plus the looks are more distinctive (I prefer the 512TR front but think the rear of the M looks far more modern). I've been approached with offers of nearly three times what I paid for it just over two years ago, but they just don't make them like this anymore and I really think the pre-technology feel and reliability and usability of '90s engineering puts in in a good place for longer term driving pleasure and value. Maybe prices will level or dip slightly with current market conditions, but over time, if someone wants one, they will have to pay for it - there aren't that many to choose from, after all. It's a lovely machine, well worth spending some time getting to know.
Well after 9 months since starting the thread and over a year since considering a 512 of some flavour I've now bought one. :-) I decide to buy a 512 TR as I found I was trying to force myself to like the looks of the M. Didn't seem right. To me the 512 TR simply looks right.
After mulling over the current price point and views offered either way, I simply bought it regardless of what may or may not happen. It's a flat 12, sounds awesome at the red line. What else do you need. :-)
After mulling over the current price point and views offered either way, I simply bought it regardless of what may or may not happen. It's a flat 12, sounds awesome at the red line. What else do you need. :-)
So this thread is renamed: "Is the 512TR a worthy future classic"? 
4rephill said:
It may be sacrilege to some, but if I bought an F512M, I'd have it converted to look like a 512 TR (front end, rear end and wheels), that way, you get the best of both Worlds - Uprated mechanicals and a better looking car! (The F512M has always looked Fugly to Me!)
I could live with a M's looks myself but would need to swap out those fugly wheels. I read somewhere that they were dsigned to channel air onto the discs.What are the differences between the 512TR and 512M engine wise then? I've read conflicting comments: some that they're the same (but greatly improved on the TR) and others that they're different.
gt2-r said:
Thanks AMG Merc. I enjoyed reading the pages you posted up. Made me impatient to have it delivered now. :-)
You're welcome. I was going to post the entire article but not sure about copyright. 
I also noted their quoted top speed is far below the 190+ mph quoted these days. Perhaps they couldn't find a long straight duting their road test
AMG Merc said:
4rephill said:
It may be sacrilege to some, but if I bought an F512M, I'd have it converted to look like a 512 TR (front end, rear end and wheels), that way, you get the best of both Worlds - Uprated mechanicals and a better looking car! (The F512M has always looked Fugly to Me!)
I could live with a M's looks myself but would need to swap out those fugly wheels. I read somewhere that they were dsigned to channel air onto the discs.What are the differences between the 512TR and 512M engine wise then? I've read conflicting comments: some that they're the same (but greatly improved on the TR) and others that they're different.
Power went up from the 512 TR's 428hp @ 6750rpm, to 440 hp @ 6750rpm for the F512M , and the torque went up from the 512 TR's 362 ft.lbs @ 5500rpm, to 368.8ft.lbs @ 5500rpm.
AMG Merc said:
You're welcome. I was going to post the entire article but not sure about copyright.
I also noted their quoted top speed is far below the 190+ mph quoted these days. Perhaps they couldn't find a long straight duting their road test
Autocar top speeds were recorded on the Millbrook banked bowl. Even Tiff Needell could only get 195mph out of a McLaren F1 around there, due to the fact that you're constantly turning left and scrubbing the tyres.I also noted their quoted top speed is far below the 190+ mph quoted these days. Perhaps they couldn't find a long straight duting their road test
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