Please be more honest and quicker to deal with bad stuff

[LeePH]

Funk - yes tech team will be reviewing further routines and features to support the great effforts of PH Mods. JD PH will be pulling together and prioritizing the number of requests and ideas from Mods and PH team.

Edited by LeePH on Saturday 5th September 19:19

[LeePH]

Funk - yes tech team will be reviewing further routines and features to support the great effforts of PH Mods. JD PH will be pulling together and prioritizing the number of requests and ideas from Mods and PH team.

Edited by LeePH on Saturday 5th September 19:19

[Zod]

Greg66 said:

Shaw Tarse said:

Funk said:

Lee, how about a 'trigger' point where if a certain post reaches a specific number of reports from a number of users it is automatically quarantined until reviewed by moderators? 'X' reports from 'Y' users in a short space of time probably clearly indicates that a post is of questionable content.

Not a bad idea.

How do you guard against cliques of posters "ganging up" on a specific post, or poster?

ETA: the underlying point is that I think whatever approach is adopted to reported posts should be kept private between the mods and Haymarket, otherwise it is open to abuse.

which is exactly what would have happened at various points on the UKIP thread.

[FiF]

Zod said:

Greg66 said:

Shaw Tarse said:

Funk said:

Lee, how about a 'trigger' point where if a certain post reaches a specific number of reports from a number of users it is automatically quarantined until reviewed by moderators? 'X' reports from 'Y' users in a short space of time probably clearly indicates that a post is of questionable content.

Not a bad idea.

How do you guard against cliques of posters "ganging up" on a specific post, or poster?

ETA: the underlying point is that I think whatever approach is adopted to reported posts should be kept private between the mods and Haymarket, otherwise it is open to abuse.

which is exactly what would have happened at various points on the UKIP thread.

Well it's what did happen surely. Both sides tag teamed at times against one poster at various points. Ph gang mentality can be very ugly.

[Funk]

Simple answer; if a thread breaches report thresholds, move the thread to quarantine until it's reviewed. Problem solved.

[greygoose]

Countdown said:

minimoog said:

No. st like 'I'm sick of these [foreign] s. I'd vote for Hitler if he came back' has been given a comfortable home here for too long. Objecting to that is not PC, it's having a sense of morality and compassion.

"PC gone mad" is the refrain of people with vile abhorrent views who want to express these views without being shamed by others.

Sadly this is a common comment, anyone suggesting anything different to an extreme right wing view is denounced as a socialist. I reported a comment on the thread last week that said the Calais camp inhabitants were rats who should be exterminated, I never received a reply or any acknowledgement at all, it just makes you wonder what the point of the report button is?

[SpeckledJim]

LeePH said:

Thanks for the feedback. Yes we should have acted faster on this iissue.

There are an incredible 39m posts in the community from PHers and I am sure you will agree the vast majority are informative, useful and banter positive, abiding to posting rules.

Please be assured we are on it and your feedback has been fully and seriously noted.

Lee PH

I certainly would not agree. This thread could be a lightning rod for the disaffected.

I would not dream of admitting to reading or contributing to PH in unfamiliar company. It is my guilty, shameful secret, yet I do not subscribe to the tone of the place at all any more.

As or when I find a forum that is like PH was, you would not see me for dust.

12.5 years, more browsing hours than I can bring myself to estimate, and the decline is now fast and getting faster.

I honestly think a tipping-point is close.

[FiF]

SpeckledJim said:

I certainly would not agree. This thread could be a lightning rod for the disaffected.

I would not dream of admitting to reading or contributing to PH in unfamiliar company. It is my guilty, shameful secret, yet I do not subscribe to the tone of the place at all any more.

As or when I find a forum that is like PH was, you would not see me for dust.

12.5 years, more browsing hours than I can bring myself to estimate, and the decline is now fast and getting faster.

I honestly think a tipping-point is close.

Pretty much second the whole of that post especially the bit in bold. Sorry but there it is.

[Lucas CAV]

SpeckledJim said:

LeePH said:

Thanks for the feedback. Yes we should have acted faster on this iissue.

There are an incredible 39m posts in the community from PHers and I am sure you will agree the vast majority are informative, useful and banter positive, abiding to posting rules.

Please be assured we are on it and your feedback has been fully and seriously noted.

Lee PH

I certainly would not agree. This thread could be a lightning rod for the disaffected.

I would not dream of admitting to reading or contributing to PH in unfamiliar company. It is my guilty, shameful secret, yet I do not subscribe to the tone of the place at all any more.

As or when I find a forum that is like PH was, you would not see me for dust.

12.5 years, more browsing hours than I can bring myself to estimate, and the decline is now fast and getting faster.

I honestly think a tipping-point is close.

Agree 100%

The quantity of aggressive loonies on the News, Politics and Racism forum, in particular, is getting daft.

Certain key trigger things bring them out.....

Climate change, UKIP, refugees, Daily Mail, Tube workers, unions -

The same old nutters again and again - "PC gone mad...", "Nulabia", "Guardianista", "socialists", "leftists",

[anonymous-user]

Lucas CAV said:

Agree 100%

The quantity of aggressive loonies on the News, Politics and Racism forum, in particular, is getting daft.

Certain key trigger things bring them out.....

Climate change, UKIP, refugees, Daily Mail, Tube workers, unions -

The same old nutters again and again - "PC gone mad...", "Nulabia", "Guardianista", "socialists", "leftists",

And the weird thing?

They like to portray themselves as harden cynical internet veterans who can sniff out bullst at 1000 yards. Yet they lap up any old ste that the Daily Mail or Daily Express ladles down their throats without question.

And they are tough as nails. Except when they like to scare themselves steless at something the said Daily Mail/Express tells them is true. Like watching Doctor Who compulsively because you like being so scared you have to hide behind the sofa.

[valiant]

Lucas CAV said:

SpeckledJim said:

LeePH said:

Thanks for the feedback. Yes we should have acted faster on this iissue.

There are an incredible 39m posts in the community from PHers and I am sure you will agree the vast majority are informative, useful and banter positive, abiding to posting rules.

Please be assured we are on it and your feedback has been fully and seriously noted.

Lee PH

I certainly would not agree. This thread could be a lightning rod for the disaffected.

I would not dream of admitting to reading or contributing to PH in unfamiliar company. It is my guilty, shameful secret, yet I do not subscribe to the tone of the place at all any more.

As or when I find a forum that is like PH was, you would not see me for dust.

12.5 years, more browsing hours than I can bring myself to estimate, and the decline is now fast and getting faster.

I honestly think a tipping-point is close.

Agree 100%

The quantity of aggressive loonies on the News, Politics and Racism forum, in particular, is getting daft.

Certain key trigger things bring them out.....

Climate change, UKIP, refugees, Daily Mail, Tube workers, unions -

The same old nutters again and again - "PC gone mad...", "Nulabia", "Guardianista", "socialists", "leftists",

Have to agree with all that.

I have only been here a relatively short time but in that time NPE has gone from a place of debate where views from both sides were respected, countered, challenged and debunked ( and a little pisstaking - hey, it is PH after all!) to a place where woe betide you don't fit in with the common view. When a member tries to counter an argument or even express a different view he is immediately pounced on with the usual right wing crap of 'you're not one of us, leftie scum' from numerous posters.

It also seems that the NPE forum is attracting new members who only seem to have joined to add to the madness, a home for their 'views' , and rarely post elsewhere. Maybe a prolonged probation period before newbies are allowed to post in NPE?

[Durzel]

I must admit I'd only heard of NPE as an acronym on here, and somehow managed to forget to investigate it further, so after reading this I popped into that subforum...

My initial thought, after briefly thinking that maybe I'd been redirected off to the Daily Mail website is: why does this subforum exist on here?

I get that there is a desire on a lot of websites to be a "one stop shop" that keeps users in one place, but it's a bit of an antiquated view nowadays. The alternative is that forums like that, with fast moving polemicist content, is great for ad impressions. I hope that it isn't as simple as that.

I don't believe PH has the volume of users for a Reddit-like scoring mechanism to work, as has been said already I suspect the downvotes on naked racist posts would be countered by the upvotes from like minded fascists, and vice versa of course.

Ultimately I think NP&E is an experiment that's doomed to failure really. It's always going to have topics that are portentous and divisive. I don't think it needs to be on here, particularly if the moderation is reactive.

[FiF]

valiant said:

Lucas CAV said:

SpeckledJim said:

LeePH said:

Thanks for the feedback. Yes we should have acted faster on this iissue.

There are an incredible 39m posts in the community from PHers and I am sure you will agree the vast majority are informative, useful and banter positive, abiding to posting rules.

Please be assured we are on it and your feedback has been fully and seriously noted.

Lee PH

I certainly would not agree. This thread could be a lightning rod for the disaffected.

I would not dream of admitting to reading or contributing to PH in unfamiliar company. It is my guilty, shameful secret, yet I do not subscribe to the tone of the place at all any more.

As or when I find a forum that is like PH was, you would not see me for dust.

12.5 years, more browsing hours than I can bring myself to estimate, and the decline is now fast and getting faster.

I honestly think a tipping-point is close.

Agree 100%

The quantity of aggressive loonies on the News, Politics and Racism forum, in particular, is getting daft.

Certain key trigger things bring them out.....

Climate change, UKIP, refugees, Daily Mail, Tube workers, unions -

The same old nutters again and again - "PC gone mad...", "Nulabia", "Guardianista", "socialists", "leftists",

Have to agree with all that.

I have only been here a relatively short time but in that time NPE has gone from a place of debate where views from both sides were respected, countered, challenged and debunked ( and a little pisstaking - hey, it is PH after all!) to a place where woe betide you don't fit in with the common view. When a member tries to counter an argument or even express a different view he is immediately pounced on with the usual right wing crap of 'you're not one of us, leftie scum' from numerous posters.

It also seems that the NPE forum is attracting new members who only seem to have joined to add to the madness, a home for their 'views' , and rarely post elsewhere. Maybe a prolonged probation period before newbies are allowed to post in NPE?

Just as a point of order the gang mentality on PH exists on both ends of the spectrum. It is factually inaccurate to claim that it's only a factor of "right" scorning "left" as several have proposed. In reality not sure that political right and left is an appropriate way of labelling things. It's more a case of opinion A vs opinion Z. Those with opinion L, M and N or one which varies along the alphabetical order to extend the metaphor in the end just shut up. The effect is ultimately to shut down reasoned, balanced and moderate debate. Which ultimately reflects badly on Haymarket. Though compared to some places out there this is a haven of civilised comment. On the other hand when a thread gets a bit confrontational it is often some regular names mixing it in there. Which sort of questions the merit of a probationary period. Often one can see someone banned who comes back in a later volume of the same thread and it all kicks off again. Not learnt their lesson but allowed to continue which flies in the face of moderation principles aiui as operated.

Further on the merit of a probationary spell before posting is allowed. That is aiui the case with SP&L where the vitriol had driven many police posters away from contribution in a cba with you lot anymore. NP&E is very close to the same frankly, there's many threads which would benefit from a few facts to try and counter anything from ill informed speculation to downright lies, but speaking for myself, 90%+ of the time just cba to gather the facts and present them duly referenced to reliable publicly available sources.

It's a shame but there it is.

[Lucas CAV]

Agree with some of that, fif and it is just a case of differing opinions but I don't recall to many people ganging up on people with right wing opinions -

A thread only needs Turbobloke and his acolytes to arrive and start chucking around the bullst bingo and all reason breaks down!

[FiF]

Lucas CAV said:

Agree with some of that, fif and it is just a case of differing opinions but I don't recall to many people ganging up on people with right wing opinions -

A thread only needs Turbobloke and his acolytes to arrive and start chucking around the bullst bingo and all reason breaks down!

We're going to have to differ on that, it was both sides. Personally I wouldn't like to blame one side more than the other, it would need an objective study which would include the relative proportions of contributors and contributions on one side or another to determine if one "side" or the other was the worse behaved. Different perception of the situation will almost certainly be down partly to Cognitive bias, including but not limited to Confirmation bias and Ingroup bias as but two types.


(Off topic that's just given me an idea for an M.Phil project for someone. Hmmm Now to sell it to them)

[FiF]

Sorry there's one other thing I need to say, not related at all to the recent posts above.

Trawling round the Sky channels I sometimes watch things on the Information channel. Recently right after shows about boats / caravans / motorhomes appears a show called PistonHeads.

I've never clicked on it but bet there's a promo for the website and the forums. So there could be members of public from wherever descending into a zoo. Not just NP&E could be anywhere. Imagined your first experience was a cycling vs the rest thread. Or something in SP&L or (shudder) the Lounge. Haymarket needs to have a think imo.

[trashbat]

If you want to a see a fine example of much of the above, you need look no further than here - "Are the left wing less tolerant of the views of others?"

'They' this, 'they' that, a smug, self-congratulatory and entirely unironic look down the collective nose at a phantom construct. Who are these left wing people? Is a someone at a Class War demo the same as a Liz Kendall supporter? And where are they on that thread?

And if you think it cuts both ways, show me the mirror image of that thread.

But groupthink and espousing general contempt for groups of people doesn't break any posting rules, and I doubt you can write any either. It's just what PH is. That's why nothing is worth discussing or rebutting - because regardless of merit, it's on to a loser against a well entrenched position from the outset. So NPE becomes a self-reinforcing position, and will never police itself or be possible to moderate back to something sensible any more than the Daily Mail comments section will be.

That alone isn't why PH has people who supposedly openly support Hitler, but the two are related, and the whole thing is now slanted to favour a certain opinion & mindset, which in turn attracts more of the same only more extreme, and after a while you have a collection of very unpleasant people. I don't think it can be fixed.

Eventually Haymarket will probably come to realise this, and any more exposure to sunlight like by whoever set up the Twitter account (not me!) will only hasten it.

[Lucas CAV]

The whole thread is designed to gather similarly retarded views.

All the usual suspects are gathering...

[Bill]

trashbat said:

If you want to a see a fine example of much of the above, you need look no further than here - "Are the left wing less tolerant of the views of others?"

'

It's amazing, isn't it.

I raised similar concerns a couple of years ago looking for some direction from the (mostly now departed) HM team. They had more important things to deal with so what momentum we had was lost.

I'm not making any promises but the more feedback we get the better.

[TankRizzo]

trashbat said:

Is it really about response times?

I don't care how quickly they respond. I care what they do in the long term. Today a few people crossed some line, but the views behind those specific words have been implicitly allowed and even rewarded for a whole lot longer, so by this point it's just the product of the place. That's in part up to moderators to defeat but also a job for all the other posters too. You don't allow these people to have any voice in your community if it really runs so counter to the mainstream view.

Noone will give a solitary miniature fk about this, and rightly so, but I'm done. I'm deeply embarrassed to be here, to be part of this, so I'm not going to be any more.

The best way I can put it is this. If you told someone you didn't really know, in your office or whatever, that you posted on PH, and they Googled it, and they read ten posts at random, not yours but a random PHer's, how would it affect their opinion of you?

If you tried to assemble a person out of the prevailing content on here, it'd lack most of the qualities required to make a workable human being. I actually defended this place and its poor reputation to people when I started reading the forums here, four years ago. I can't any more. If you want to be part of some satirical portrait of rich white men's contempt for anyone 'beneath' them, knock yourselves out. Me, I will miss bits of PH, but not nearly enough.

Sorry for using your thread for this but the opportunities to comment are limited.