Lain Tyrrell's Best Yet, Ferruccio's Personal Countach
Discussion
HIS LM said:
Why did it take Lamborghini 4 years to confirm it was the real deal ?
Haven't a clue,All depends in which period the factory were requested to confirm it was the Miura that was used in the film as they were always in financial turmoil with ownership changing hands on a regular basis until Audi took over.I could only imagine the factory would have very little interest while this was going on. ,
rat rod said:
HIS LM said:
Why did it take Lamborghini 4 years to confirm it was the real deal ?
Haven't a clue,All depends in which period the factory were requested to confirm it was the Miura that was used in the film as they were always in financial turmoil with ownership changing hands on a regular basis until Audi took over.I could only imagine the factory would have very little interest while this was going on. ,
Ferruccio said:
And their old records are sketchy.
Sketchy,You are not kidding,tried to find out how many MK 3 400 S were made ,had to find out from another sourse, still don't know how many R.H.D ones there are, not many i believe.
Less interesting but more recent i asked how many R.H.D manual Gallardo's were built but they were unable to tell me that either, so things
haven't changed much.
HIS LM said:
Why did it take Lamborghini 4 years to confirm it was the real deal ?
They have never come up with any actual proof it is the car: paperwork, insurance, internal memos, travel docs. It is 99.9% the car purely through delivery dates and the slightly rare spec of white leather which you can see from the headrests. They put black plastic seats in as 'slaves' to stop the leather getting dirty.
Massive argument over the colour due to a second page in the build sheet stating 'Arancio Miura' (orange Miura). That was not available for the P400, only the S, and it was the informal name used for Rosso Miura, a very, very orangey red which changes in different light and was very popular so would have been easy to find two cars (one for the crash scene) in it. The chances of it being not only THE Italian Job car and the ONLY P400 in a new S colour must be thin. First S in Arancio 29 November 1968, this car built 2 July 1968.
The whole industry including Tyrrell that surrounds this car is adamant it is now in the correct colour. Any suggestion it is not is taken as denying it is the actual Italian Job car. It has all become very tedious - they should grow up and paint it the correct colour.
Edited to say much of the 'discovery' work was done by a Frenchman.
Edited by stevewak on Monday 9th November 08:29
Ferruccio said:
I asked Polo Storico for the paint code for my early Diablo.
They came back with the wrong colour. They checked,
They just had red. But there’s more than one red.
And I know what the original colour was as it was the 1992 motorshow car and a one off colour.
I rest my case. PS repainted the IJ Miura its current colour and even one of its most vociferous cheerleaders says they got it wrong, after Tyrrell had painted it another wrong colour. . They came back with the wrong colour. They checked,
They just had red. But there’s more than one red.
And I know what the original colour was as it was the 1992 motorshow car and a one off colour.
stevewak said:
Ferruccio said:
I asked Polo Storico for the paint code for my early Diablo.
They came back with the wrong colour. They checked,
They just had red. But there’s more than one red.
And I know what the original colour was as it was the 1992 motorshow car and a one off colour.
I rest my case. PS repainted the IJ Miura its current colour and even one of its most vociferous cheerleaders says they got it wrong, after Tyrrell had painted it another wrong colour. . They came back with the wrong colour. They checked,
They just had red. But there’s more than one red.
And I know what the original colour was as it was the 1992 motorshow car and a one off colour.
It does seem weird the original colour is a mystery given the IJ film is still in circulation !
HIS LM said:
stevewak said:
Ferruccio said:
I asked Polo Storico for the paint code for my early Diablo.
They came back with the wrong colour. They checked,
They just had red. But there’s more than one red.
And I know what the original colour was as it was the 1992 motorshow car and a one off colour.
I rest my case. PS repainted the IJ Miura its current colour and even one of its most vociferous cheerleaders says they got it wrong, after Tyrrell had painted it another wrong colour. . They came back with the wrong colour. They checked,
They just had red. But there’s more than one red.
And I know what the original colour was as it was the 1992 motorshow car and a one off colour.
It does seem weird the original colour is a mystery given the IJ film is still in circulation !
Ferruccio said:
Yes; but the paint code is helpful.
For the record, Rosso Miura on the P400 is 1-449-002. That is what Bertone painted the Italian Job car. It would have helped if the original restorer (Tyrrell?) had sanded back the paint somewhere inaccessible to expose all the layers. This would have revealed the first colour(s). Incredible isn’t it ...... all this palaver about a car that featured in a film , and the has been restored / changed/ altered / repainted such that even the experts have to debate amongst themselves about its true identity and provenance .
Yet , a car which is less famous but also unrestored , carries so much more history of the model and the marque within it , yet will be , relatively speaking , overlooked.
I am determined to do absolutely no cosmetic restoration on Chassis 12399 unless really necessary .Ditto mechanical work only as per factory schedule o for essential preservation of the drivetrain .
The chap who added power steering to his Countach should have just bought the earliest possible Diablo featuring power steering rather than butchering the life blood of an icon .
Ditto over restoring cars to Pebble Beach standards .
Far better , in my opinion , to drive the cars on carefully chosen occasions , and then let them show their scars with pride . Patina .
Yet , a car which is less famous but also unrestored , carries so much more history of the model and the marque within it , yet will be , relatively speaking , overlooked.
I am determined to do absolutely no cosmetic restoration on Chassis 12399 unless really necessary .Ditto mechanical work only as per factory schedule o for essential preservation of the drivetrain .
The chap who added power steering to his Countach should have just bought the earliest possible Diablo featuring power steering rather than butchering the life blood of an icon .
Ditto over restoring cars to Pebble Beach standards .
Far better , in my opinion , to drive the cars on carefully chosen occasions , and then let them show their scars with pride . Patina .
carspath said:
Incredible isn’t it ...... all this palaver about a car that featured in a film , and the has been restored / changed/ altered / repainted such that even the experts have to debate amongst themselves about its true identity and provenance .
Yet , a car which is less famous but also unrestored , carries so much more history of the model and the marque within it , yet will be , relatively speaking , overlooked.
I am determined to do absolutely no cosmetic restoration on Chassis 12399 unless really necessary .Ditto mechanical work only as per factory schedule o for essential preservation of the drivetrain .
The chap who added power steering to his Countach should have just bought the earliest possible Diablo featuring power steering rather than butchering the life blood of an icon .
Ditto over restoring cars to Pebble Beach standards .
Far better , in my opinion , to drive the cars on carefully chosen occasions , and then let them show their scars with pride . Patina .
Ye,Can't be many left like yours, what's that saying,"It can only be original once" and all that, I think more enjoyable as well ,if a stone flicked up by the car/truck in front although unwanted won't be the end of the world ,just add them to the other chips accumulated through theYet , a car which is less famous but also unrestored , carries so much more history of the model and the marque within it , yet will be , relatively speaking , overlooked.
I am determined to do absolutely no cosmetic restoration on Chassis 12399 unless really necessary .Ditto mechanical work only as per factory schedule o for essential preservation of the drivetrain .
The chap who added power steering to his Countach should have just bought the earliest possible Diablo featuring power steering rather than butchering the life blood of an icon .
Ditto over restoring cars to Pebble Beach standards .
Far better , in my opinion , to drive the cars on carefully chosen occasions , and then let them show their scars with pride . Patina .
years,
Unless concours is your thing or preparing the car for resale is best left alone,I would rather buy a car with chips and marks
than fresh paint work as at least you can see what you are getting, Your decision if you want to paint it after.
There's even a survivor category at Pebble Beach now,
carspath said:
The chap who added power steering to his Countach should have just bought the earliest possible Diablo featuring power steering rather than butchering the life blood of an icon .
.
Are you referring to Harry Metcalfe? My understanding it is a quite unobtrusive electronic device that is bolt on/bolt off and switch on/switch off and couldn't see why it would ruin the car..
And if it makes it more usable and enjoyable, and allows you the car you want, then why not?
What is criminal is some of the inexplicable hacking to bits and modifying that the Japanese seem to like to do to Countaches!
Cheers
SS
Hi Snapper Seven ,
Yes it might have been Metcalfe , but i'm not sure .
The steering is such an integral part of the Countach driving experience that to bypass it is to almost bypass the car itself .
The steering is NOT what the magazines would lead you to believe .
The steering has very significant weight when stationary and at very low speed .
But once past about 5 mph , it lightens up considerably .
By about 10 mph the unassisted is simply delightful
You do have to work at the steering , but it is not unmanageable .
I have driven a QV for many, many hours in a day ( with breaks in between ) , and the steering has not been the limiting factor .( and I am not a powerfully built Company Director )
( The limiting factors are the poor sightlines , the width , and other road users driving too close to the car -- totally understandable , but unnerving - which is why I very much prefer to drive the car in the very early morning , when there are few other road users around )
Ditto the clutch and gearchange - the magazines go on about the weight of both , but on Chassis 12399 this is simply not the case ( Chassis 12399 is still on its original clutch ) .
Both part-define the Countach
To bypass these mechanical characteristics would just leave the cosmetics - delightful as Gandini's efforts were / are , the Countach's appearance is only one part of the Countach legend .
And of course , those early Diablos which featured power-steering were pretty similar to the Countach - square tubed spaceframe and fuel injection excepted .
Of course its any owner's prerogative to do whatever they want with their car , but I would have thought that going for a Diablo would have been the logical way to overcome a shoulder or wrist problem , rather than adding on an aftermarket power-steering system to a Countach .
I take your point that the power-steering system added to the countach is reversible ( phew !) , and I think that it would be entirely understandable to add this system on to a Countach if a long-standing owner had the misfortune to be injured , or grew old and could no longer manage the steering .
But for a fit middle aged owner to bypass the Countach's non-assisted steering ( when a Diablo is available and cheaper )- why ?
Yes it might have been Metcalfe , but i'm not sure .
The steering is such an integral part of the Countach driving experience that to bypass it is to almost bypass the car itself .
The steering is NOT what the magazines would lead you to believe .
The steering has very significant weight when stationary and at very low speed .
But once past about 5 mph , it lightens up considerably .
By about 10 mph the unassisted is simply delightful
You do have to work at the steering , but it is not unmanageable .
I have driven a QV for many, many hours in a day ( with breaks in between ) , and the steering has not been the limiting factor .( and I am not a powerfully built Company Director )
( The limiting factors are the poor sightlines , the width , and other road users driving too close to the car -- totally understandable , but unnerving - which is why I very much prefer to drive the car in the very early morning , when there are few other road users around )
Ditto the clutch and gearchange - the magazines go on about the weight of both , but on Chassis 12399 this is simply not the case ( Chassis 12399 is still on its original clutch ) .
Both part-define the Countach
To bypass these mechanical characteristics would just leave the cosmetics - delightful as Gandini's efforts were / are , the Countach's appearance is only one part of the Countach legend .
And of course , those early Diablos which featured power-steering were pretty similar to the Countach - square tubed spaceframe and fuel injection excepted .
Of course its any owner's prerogative to do whatever they want with their car , but I would have thought that going for a Diablo would have been the logical way to overcome a shoulder or wrist problem , rather than adding on an aftermarket power-steering system to a Countach .
I take your point that the power-steering system added to the countach is reversible ( phew !) , and I think that it would be entirely understandable to add this system on to a Countach if a long-standing owner had the misfortune to be injured , or grew old and could no longer manage the steering .
But for a fit middle aged owner to bypass the Countach's non-assisted steering ( when a Diablo is available and cheaper )- why ?
Yep Metcalfe added power steering to his Countach and later to the Espada.
Don’t really see a problem with it - his car, his choice, and can always remove.
See:
http://www.ezpowersteering.nl/photos/194C0F51D9A16...
Don’t really see a problem with it - his car, his choice, and can always remove.
See:
http://www.ezpowersteering.nl/photos/194C0F51D9A16...
.carspath said:
But for a fit middle aged owner to bypass the Countach's non-assisted steering ( when a Diablo is available and cheaper )- why ?
Because that's what he wanted? I presume if he wanted a Diablo he'd buy one. Personally I think it's great, because it means he's going to use it. If it was just going to sit in a collection he could save himself the bother. Everything that comes out of any factory, in whatever period, is a compromise, so to cast some special aura over and slavishly accept that compromise today appeals to some but not others. Incidentally, power steering is often fitted to old stuff, the attraction not just to make the steering lighter, it also tightens it up so there's less slop. Hi 456mgt ,
The two points you make are respectively , the blatantly obvious , and the patently untrue .
Obviously it is the owner's choice - I conceded that point early on in my original post , the question is Why ? , and your post doesn't address that in any constructive way .
With respect to the second point , the way to correct any slop that has developed over time in any car's steering system , is to tighten/renew/refurbish the bolts , joints and bushes etc within the system .
Why would you suggest that one needs to add a power-steering system to cure such a simple and straightforward issue ?
Not one of my manual steering cars has needed a power-steering system added to it to cure steering slop - and some of them are old + .
And there are very , very few Countachs that have had a power-steering system added to them -- mainly I suspect because , firstly their owners value the steering as it is , and secondly because there is a much simpler way of dealing with any lack of steering tightness .
The two points you make are respectively , the blatantly obvious , and the patently untrue .
Obviously it is the owner's choice - I conceded that point early on in my original post , the question is Why ? , and your post doesn't address that in any constructive way .
With respect to the second point , the way to correct any slop that has developed over time in any car's steering system , is to tighten/renew/refurbish the bolts , joints and bushes etc within the system .
Why would you suggest that one needs to add a power-steering system to cure such a simple and straightforward issue ?
Not one of my manual steering cars has needed a power-steering system added to it to cure steering slop - and some of them are old + .
And there are very , very few Countachs that have had a power-steering system added to them -- mainly I suspect because , firstly their owners value the steering as it is , and secondly because there is a much simpler way of dealing with any lack of steering tightness .
Haha very good! We are obviously opposite ends of the spectrum Carspath, and I suspect this leads to some confirmation bias in both directions. But we will never see eye to eye. The answer to why power steering on a Countach is indeed obvious; Harry Metcalfe feels he will enjoy the car more that way, when he's driving it .
On the point about the steering slop, we've all done the parts replacement and rebushing stuff, but that gets you to the best that that can be done with the original configuration. Which on many old cars isn't great. I suggest you apply it to something like a VW camper where the best solution to slop, by a country mile, is power steering. You don't need it to help move the steering wheel, it's the precision that improves.
On the point about the steering slop, we've all done the parts replacement and rebushing stuff, but that gets you to the best that that can be done with the original configuration. Which on many old cars isn't great. I suggest you apply it to something like a VW camper where the best solution to slop, by a country mile, is power steering. You don't need it to help move the steering wheel, it's the precision that improves.
Hi again 456 mgt ,
Its been a valuable discussion , and I've certainly now learnt that power-steering can help with removing some of the slop in a car , which I didn't previously know , so thank you for that .
I have no experience of the VW Camper , but have always admired them --esp now , when travel abroad is limited , and a trip with the surf board to the beach is a great substitute .
Do you know what would make the steering system on a Camper particularly suited to adding on a power-steering system ?
Is it anything to do with the steering ratio ?
Its been a valuable discussion , and I've certainly now learnt that power-steering can help with removing some of the slop in a car , which I didn't previously know , so thank you for that .
I have no experience of the VW Camper , but have always admired them --esp now , when travel abroad is limited , and a trip with the surf board to the beach is a great substitute .
Do you know what would make the steering system on a Camper particularly suited to adding on a power-steering system ?
Is it anything to do with the steering ratio ?
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