My New McLaren 12C Coupe (The Shmeemobile)

[GRBF430F1]

Shmee said:

I don't actually think up to this point I have posted any pics:







Image credits: Alex Penfold Photography

Fantastic. Loving the doors photo

Are you going to put protective clear film on the front end to prevent stone chips. I'm not a film fan but feel the front carbon valance and front bumper paint section pre bonnet and wings should be done, maybe along with the tuning vanes and rear wheel arch.

[Shmee]

GRBF430F1 said:

Fantastic. Loving the doors photo

Are you going to put protective clear film on the front end to prevent stone chips. I'm not a film fan but feel the front carbon valance and front bumper paint section pre bonnet and wings should be done, maybe along with the tuning vanes and rear wheel arch.

Something has to be done that's for sure. I had the car for 3 days then now away for 2 weeks so it's something to deal with when I get home and can plan it out.

[GRBF430F1]

Shmee said:

Something has to be done that's for sure. I had the car for 3 days then now away for 2 weeks so it's something to deal with when I get home and can plan it out.

Appreciate if you let us know your thoughts when you get round to it. Its knowing where to draw the line and a full kit is circa £5,500, Full frontal £2,000 and my minimal proposal more like £1,000

[mb1]

Shmee said:

I am sorry but I cannot get over that fugly duckling front end....

The way the curves sweep is just not harmonious compared to the P1 and the first renderings of the P13.

Makes my 12C look much better in comparison ;-)

The colour is good. I think VR suits the 650S best if a vibrant colour is sought.
But I quite like that Storm Grey at McLaren Birmingham (so that the lines of the front end cannot be distinguished !).

[GRBF430F1]

mb1 said:

I am sorry but I cannot get over that fugly duckling front end....

The way the curves sweep is just not harmonious compared to the P1 and the first renderings of the P13.

Makes my 12C look much better in comparison ;-)

The colour is good. I think VR suits the 650S best if a vibrant colour is sought.
But I quite like that Storm Grey at McLaren Birmingham (so that the lines of the front end cannot be distinguished !).

So its fugly duckling versus the jokers mouth with boss eyes

Agree with Volcanic red though it really rocks :
Vibrant, distinguished and subtle, with a touch of class.
Mmmmm who does that remind me of

[TP321]

IMO the 650s just isn't worth all that extra money over a 12c. The interior, engine, gearbox, chassis, rear end, are all the same as the 12c. The only difference is the front and the side vanes. Anyone putting £200k plus in one of these will get shafted in a years time. Talk it up all you want, it won't change a thing.

[Shmee]

And that's exactly it, go and drive both cars and you'll see so much more, the differences are vastly more than you mention. I've done a write up about it but I'm not allowed to link to that here sadly.

[GRBF430F1]

TP321 said:

IMO the 650s just isn't worth all that extra money over a 12c. The interior, engine, gearbox, chassis, rear end, are all the same as the 12c. The only difference is the front and the side vanes. Anyone putting £200k plus in one of these will get shafted in a years time. Talk it up all you want, it won't change a thing.

If you are an existing 12C owner who hasn't driven the 650S I can see exactly why you would say that but as soon as you have driven it for any time the massive improvement will be very noticeable.

I had a strict budget to go and buy a used 12C spider. Drove it and loved it to pieces but couldn't quite get the deal on that particular car I wanted ( < £5k adrift ) but whilst I had driven 250 miles to Manchester I thought I may as well drive the a 650S as I wouldn't get a chance again.

Immediately, being totally unbiased and open minded, I could tell how much better the 650S was ( mainly subjectively ). After that there was no way I was going to buy a 12C I just had to come up with an extra £80k, 50% more somehow. It was a no brainer for me but that's not saying the car is 50% better of course as that would simply be impossible

With there being 25% new parts and the changes to the gearbox software and chassis your statement that is merely a facelift is factually incorrect. As far as getting shafted, anyone buying a new car will lose money, maybe more so at over £200k but in relation to 12C residuals the 650S is going to be strong and we will not see a repeat of the MP4 12C development car that McLaren pushed into the market too soon. The 650S is spot on from the off.
Brilliant, brilliant car !
Well done McLaren putting the GREAT back into Britain, hats off to you

Go drive one my man, go drive one

[TP321]

GRBF430F1 said:

If you are an existing 12C owner who hasn't driven the 650S I can see exactly why you would say that but as soon as you have driven it for any time the massive improvement will be very noticeable.

I had a strict budget to go and buy a used 12C spider. Drove it and loved it to pieces but couldn't quite get the deal on that particular car I wanted ( < £5k adrift ) but whilst I had driven 250 miles to Manchester I thought I may as well drive the a 650S as I wouldn't get a chance again.

Immediately, being totally unbiased and open minded, I could tell how much better the 650S was ( mainly subjectively ). After that there was no way I was going to buy a 12C I just had to come up with an extra £80k, 50% more somehow. It was a no brainer for me but that's not saying the car is 50% better of course as that would simply be impossible

With there being 25% new parts and the changes to the gearbox software and chassis your statement that is merely a facelift is factually incorrect. As far as getting shafted, anyone buying a new car will lose money, maybe more so at over £200k but in relation to 12C residuals the 650S is going to be strong and we will not see a repeat of the MP4 12C development car that McLaren pushed into the market too soon. The 650S is spot on from the off.
Brilliant, brilliant car !
Well done McLaren putting the GREAT back into Britain, hats off to you

Go drive one my man, go drive one

I don't disagree that it is better - however when there are plenty of £120k 12C with minimal miles, i wouldn't pay £200k for a 650S, unless i wasn't bothered about losing £50k in one year. Each to their own. Enjoy.

[propaganda]

I agree with TP321. I have a 12c and have test driven a 650s spider. Whilst I accept the improvements of the 650s over the 12c, the difference in price i.e. 50k+ most definitely did not warrant an immediate upgrade. The 12c is a lot of car for the money.

[mb1]

I don't think we are comparing likes with likes here in terms of price.
The 12C is an older car and all the 650S on the market are pretty new (and spiders).
Give it a year or 2, and then the difference will be 20k. 30k at the very most. The 650S being on the same level as comparable 458 Speciales.

It will be interesting to see the effect of the P13 on the market.

[Shmee]

I was about to say we aren't comparing apples to apples, I just paid obviously a sizeable sum to swap but that included: a car that's 2.5yrs newer, a Spider not Coupe, and a more expensive/special car in the first place.

I'd like to think my 650S Spider will be worth a fair chunk more in 2.5yrs than my 12C was right now, and on that basis it's absolutely fine. In fact as well as being a £45k more expensive car to start at list, residuals should hold better anyway.

[GRBF430F1]

mb1 said:

I don't think we are comparing likes with likes here in terms of price.
The 12C is an older car and all the 650S on the market are pretty new (and spiders).
Give it a year or 2, and then the difference will be 20k. 30k at the very most. The 650S being on the same level as comparable 458 Speciales.

It will be interesting to see the effect of the P13 on the market.

As optimistic as I am about 650S residuals being a lot better than 12C ( because of the early development cars bad press etc... ) I don't think they will be as strong as 458 Speciale.
One of my main reasons for buying the 458 Speciale would of been long term residual value. Yes like any new car it will drop from year 0 - year 3 but just like CS and 430 scuderia it will rebound and probably go back to list or above.
458 Speciale A spider would be the car to have but sadly I didn't carry enough clout to get on the list.

I think the McLaren brand will go from strength to strength and the P13 will only enhance that even further. Its not necessarily what people think today that's going to effect residuals.
Considering how far McLaren have come in such a short period of time with the quality of their cars and brand awareness I can see a real demand for the product in 5 years time
I hope they don't sell too many 650s and as a direct result both 12C and 650S become real coveted cars in the future

With pretty much any new car you will lose money but percentage wise I think the 650S is going to be really strong and losing £50k in year one ( unless you have a stupid spec car and paid full list price ) will not be the norm. £25k in year 1, £15k in year 2 yes maybe but that's motoring.
No point comparing it with used 12c prices today as they are mainly 2 years old and the basic list price with the standard added spec has gone up a minimum £20k anyway but I sympathise and fully understand how an original 12C owner would find it hard to justify paying £80k to upgrade.

As an aside I paid the best part of £80k and 100% more to go from a 09 F430 spider to a 08 430 Scuderia and it was always a challenge for me to justify the cost.
Was the car better - oh boy yes it was but was it twice as good - NO way hose' but its not just about financial justification.

[isaldiri]

GRBF430F1 said:

I hope they don't sell too many 650s and as a direct result both 12C and 650S become real coveted cars in the future

Dream on. Almost 1400 650s were produced this year alone. The factory seems dead set on pushing out cars without firm end customer orders and the dealerships still seem happy to order/accept cars. Until that changes, residuals will remain a problem. Perhaps the P13 as the volume model might change this practice but not if that simply shifts to churning out P13s....

[breadvan]

isaldiri said:

GRBF430F1 said:

I hope they don't sell too many 650s and as a direct result both 12C and 650S become real coveted cars in the future

Dream on. Almost 1400 650s were produced this year alone. The factory seems dead set on pushing out cars without firm end customer orders and the dealerships still seem happy to order/accept cars. Until that changes, residuals will remain a problem. Perhaps the P13 as the volume model might change this practice but not if that simply shifts to churning out P13s....

This undoubtedly will happen, but swamping the market with 'mass produced' P13s will at least halt the over supply of 650's and ironically that will have a positive effect on residuals. Didn't the 12C's depreciation curve flatten significantly when the 650 came out?

(Sorry to hijack thread Tim).

[GRBF430F1]

isaldiri said:

Dream on. Almost 1400 650s were produced this year alone. The factory seems dead set on pushing out cars without firm end customer orders and the dealerships still seem happy to order/accept cars. Until that changes, residuals will remain a problem. Perhaps the P13 as the volume model might change this practice but not if that simply shifts to churning out P13s....

That's not just UK cars and compare it with Ferrari 458 numbers.

McLaren are still a small company and facility and I'm sure there will be a push towards the more affordable P13 reducing 650S numbers even further. Residuals are not going to be as bad as the doom mongers will have you believe and no where near 12C initial hits. In fact 12C prices have stabilised nicely now and will always underpin 650S by a considerable margin.

Happy dayz and happy motoring from my drivers seat :

[famoussas]

Congrats Tim, enjoy it! Looks epic.

[isaldiri]

breadvan said:

This undoubtedly will happen, but swamping the market with 'mass produced' P13s will at least halt the over supply of 650's and ironically that will have a positive effect on residuals. Didn't the 12C's depreciation curve flatten significantly when the 650 came out?
.

hard to say if the 12c flattened out due to the 650 or it had just fallen to the point where it was viewed as too much car vs anything else in that price range to fall further. it had to have helped slightly simply by having no more units produced due to the 650 i admit.

Mclaren however need to fix either their production numbers or their pricing i think. Imo, it makes a pretty bad impression that all anyone talks about with respect to buying a car is the amount of discount they can get and brand perception counts for a lot in the sector. Apolo1 used to say prices needed to be reduced and held firm after which i never agreed with, amongst many other things he said... as i always thought prod numbers should have been reduced to <1k a year instead with prices actually set higher and no discounts being doled out. However, perhaps he was right after all with the factory either unwilling or unable to reduce the number of units being produced. Perhaps supplier contracts force their hand with respect to units being produced.

[GRBF430F1]

isaldiri said:

hard to say if the 12c flattened out due to the 650 or it had just fallen to the point where it was viewed as too much car vs anything else in that price range to fall further. it had to have helped slightly simply by having no more units produced due to the 650 i admit.

Mclaren however need to fix either their production numbers or their pricing i think. Imo, it makes a pretty bad impression that all anyone talks about with respect to buying a car is the amount of discount they can get and brand perception counts for a lot in the sector. Apolo1 used to say prices needed to be reduced and held firm after which i never agreed with, amongst many other things he said... as i always thought prod numbers should have been reduced to <1k a year instead with prices actually set higher and no discounts being doled out. However, perhaps he was right after all with the factory either unwilling or unable to reduce the number of units being produced. Perhaps supplier contracts force their hand with respect to units being produced.

There is always going to be a volume required to cover production and all the R & D etc... costs.
I think some cars are overpriced and options prices are taking the p155 but if they can get away with it they will.
If they reduce the price and still sell no more they are worse off so its a fine line.

This is not a mass produced market where volume = profit

They have to build one less than there is demand for and sell it for as much as possible.

I think McLarens numbers are good in comparison to Ferrari and the client base and conquest business will continue to grow and potentially exceed production in a few years time.

Yes there are one off discounts on stock units at the end of the financial year etc... but I don't see a lot of distress marketing and discount selling for most of the time.

I'm very confident on the residual position going forward for both 12C and 650S. The initial MP4 12C depreciation was a poor mistake by McLaren admittedly by bringing the car to market too soon but it was a one off and they have learnt from their mistake.
12C prices are relatively good for a 2 year old supercar in percentage terms and are excellent value for money IMHO.
MP4 12C coupe will never go below F430 so at the moment its happy dayz all round for McLaren IMHO

[isaldiri]

GRBF430F1 said:

There is always going to be a volume required to cover production and all the R & D etc... costs.
I think some cars are overpriced and options prices are taking the p155 but if they can get away with it they will.
If they reduce the price and still sell no more they are worse off so its a fine line.

This is not a mass produced market where volume = profit

They have to build one less than there is demand for and sell it for as much as possible.

I think McLarens numbers are good in comparison to Ferrari and the client base and conquest business will continue to grow and potentially exceed production in a few years time.

Yes there are one off discounts on stock units at the end of the financial year etc... but I don't see a lot of distress marketing and discount selling for most of the time.

I'm very confident on the residual position going forward for both 12C and 650S. The initial MP4 12C depreciation was a poor mistake by McLaren admittedly by bringing the car to market too soon but it was a one off and they have learnt from their mistake.
12C prices are relatively good for a 2 year old supercar in percentage terms and are excellent value for money IMHO.
MP4 12C coupe will never go below F430 so at the moment its happy dayz all round for McLaren IMHO

That is my point. Mclaren are doing the opposite of building to demand. There is just way way more Ferrari buyers in the world due to the whole Ferrari history/passion thing irrespective of how good the cars are (and these days they are very good) so while there are far more 458s around, there is far greater demand for them. 1300-1400 P11 class cars ie 12cs/650s is simply too much per year of units produced at the moment and yet there are no signs of that slowing down and cars not turning up as dealer stock. I maintain it is insanity to continue to produce cars in those numbers but have to offer very large discounts to shift them as the perception then gets very negativ. Something has got to give either way.