Are Mclarens Mileage Sensitive ?
Discussion
GRBF430F1 said:
Steve Sutcliffes Autocar 650S review suggested it was well worth the £40k price differential. Especially if you compare it with say a 458 being twice the price of a F430.
People don't view the 650S as a new model as its the same overall shape, engine etc as 12 C but apparently 25% of the parts are new.
Yes there is depreciation to go on a new 650S but that will have a knock on effect to 12C so I think the gap of £40k will be maintained on the whole because if it got to £20k it would be a no brainer anyway
Disagree. The 2012 12C coupe has reached its bottom. Even a 2013 12C Spyder at £160k has more depreciation to come - it will not be £40k more than a 2012 12C Coupe in a year or two down the line - £20k maybe. As for the 650S, its just in most peoples mind a facelifted 12C. In a few years time, the new P13 will be out, as will a super dooper 650R (Racing). This will all impact on the price of the current £220k price of a 650S. Remember and be warned that 12C coupes were once £210k.......People don't view the 650S as a new model as its the same overall shape, engine etc as 12 C but apparently 25% of the parts are new.
Yes there is depreciation to go on a new 650S but that will have a knock on effect to 12C so I think the gap of £40k will be maintained on the whole because if it got to £20k it would be a no brainer anyway
TP321 said:
Disagree. The 2012 12C coupe has reached its bottom. Even a 2013 12C Spyder at £160k has more depreciation to come - it will not be £40k more than a 2012 12C Coupe in a year or two down the line - £20k maybe. As for the 650S, its just in most peoples mind a facelifted 12C. In a few years time, the new P13 will be out, as will a super dooper 650R (Racing). This will all impact on the price of the current £220k price of a 650S. Remember and be warned that 12C coupes were once £210k.......
You can't honestly believe a 2012 12C has not got anymore depreciation to come if everything else above it, 12 C spider,650s coupe & spider continue to depreciate and then the the new P13 hits the whole McLaren market.The 12 C isn't going to appreciate and be collectable like a limited edition Ferrari. I think it may find its base price like early gallardos but I don't think that is now or £120k. Reckon it will be late £80 early £90k car in 3 years
GRBF430F1 said:
You can't honestly believe a 2012 12C has not got anymore depreciation to come if everything else above it, 12 C spider,650s coupe & spider continue to depreciate and then the the new P13 hits the whole McLaren market.
The 12 C isn't going to appreciate and be collectable like a limited edition Ferrari. I think it may find its base price like early gallardos but I don't think that is now or £120k. Reckon it will be late £80 early £90k car in 3 years
A 2004 Gallardo is £60k. Thats an ancient car, with a manual gearbox. The 12C is an F22-Raptor in comparison!! Yes it will depreciate, but not by £10kpa from NOW on. But assuming that you are right, and that in 3 years time a 2012 Coupe is £90k, what do you think a 650S will be worth?? My guess is £110-120k - so there you have it - £100k depreciation on a 650S in 3 years time. Because in 3 years time, the differences between a 12C and a 650 will be irrelevant as the car world will have moved on massively.The 12 C isn't going to appreciate and be collectable like a limited edition Ferrari. I think it may find its base price like early gallardos but I don't think that is now or £120k. Reckon it will be late £80 early £90k car in 3 years
TP321 said:
A 2004 Gallardo is £60k. Thats an ancient car, with a manual gearbox. The 12C is an F22-Raptor in comparison!! Yes it will depreciate, but not by £10kpa from NOW on. But assuming that you are right, and that in 3 years time a 2012 Coupe is £90k, what do you think a 650S will be worth?? My guess is £110-120k - so there you have it - £100k depreciation on a 650S in 3 years time. Because in 3 years time, the differences between a 12C and a 650 will be irrelevant as the car world will have moved on massively.
Residual is driven by supply and demand and unfortunately that's the battle the McLaren brand has coupled with a weak dealer network for used car disposal.Its a very niche brand / product and being technology based the latest and best is always going to be the appeal and yesterdays car will suffer with big depreciation.
I think they are fantastic value for money, hence why considering used and if its a keeper the residual is irrelevant but its not the sort of car I would really want to own for a year or two as the gap between buying and selling through a dealer will be north of £20k for sure and I think you could even be lucky escaping with £30k loss in that period unless you have bought it right in the first place. Trade bids on the car are mental
GRBF430F1 said:
Residual is driven by supply and demand
Totally right. Prices are driven by supply and demand. Well, try to find a 12C in a spec that meet your requirements and you will soon realise it is near impossible.From a distance it looks like there are quite a few cars available but they are all very different in specs and colours.
So buyers (like me a couple of months ago) actually don't have that much choice and need to act fast to secure a car they like.
So cars can stay for quite while but they do go and dealers are usually patient, waiting for the right buyer.
The McLaren approved dealers are actually quite good at shifting cars. Independents struggle because they charge the same amount of money. Hence taking more time to shift their cars.
But we are now already in December and until March, the number of cars available will go up. And then dry up again to a minimum like every year.
The 12C is 99% the car that the 650S is. And to me has a more timeless design. In a few years from now, the ugly duckling face of the 650S (my son's words, not mine) will be outdated and only the 12C will be remembered as McLaren foray into Ferrari territory. And what an attempt !
I think P13 will help build the value of the 12C and 650S. It will be about 100k. But the 12C will be more desirable and better performance.
Getting close to 10k miles on mine. More then 1k mile per month at the moment. What a car
mb1 said:
Totally right. Prices are driven by supply and demand. Well, try to find a 12C in a spec that meet your requirements and you will soon realise it is near impossible.
From a distance it looks like there are quite a few cars available but they are all very different in specs and colours.
So buyers (like me a couple of months ago) actually don't have that much choice and need to act fast to secure a car they like.
So cars can stay for quite while but they do go and dealers are usually patient, waiting for the right buyer.
The McLaren approved dealers are actually quite good at shifting cars. Independents struggle because they charge the same amount of money. Hence taking more time to shift their cars.
But we are now already in December and until March, the number of cars available will go up. And then dry up again to a minimum like every year.
The 12C is 99% the car that the 650S is. And to me has a more timeless design. In a few years from now, the ugly duckling face of the 650S (my son's words, not mine) will be outdated and only the 12C will be remembered as McLaren foray into Ferrari territory. And what an attempt !
I think P13 will help build the value of the 12C and 650S. It will be about 100k. But the 12C will be more desirable and better performance.
Getting close to 10k miles on mine. More then 1k mile per month at the moment. What a car
I think having an entry model P13 underpinning the 12C may help depending on how its positioned. A bit like the Porsche cayman v 911 they may have to engineer it down so as not to be to good and close to the 12 C.From a distance it looks like there are quite a few cars available but they are all very different in specs and colours.
So buyers (like me a couple of months ago) actually don't have that much choice and need to act fast to secure a car they like.
So cars can stay for quite while but they do go and dealers are usually patient, waiting for the right buyer.
The McLaren approved dealers are actually quite good at shifting cars. Independents struggle because they charge the same amount of money. Hence taking more time to shift their cars.
But we are now already in December and until March, the number of cars available will go up. And then dry up again to a minimum like every year.
The 12C is 99% the car that the 650S is. And to me has a more timeless design. In a few years from now, the ugly duckling face of the 650S (my son's words, not mine) will be outdated and only the 12C will be remembered as McLaren foray into Ferrari territory. And what an attempt !
I think P13 will help build the value of the 12C and 650S. It will be about 100k. But the 12C will be more desirable and better performance.
Getting close to 10k miles on mine. More then 1k mile per month at the moment. What a car
Regards the 650S front end I absolutely love it and if its good enough for the P1 .......
I think the front end of the 12C is bland and very safe and only thing letting the car down visually IMHO but then again it may age better because of that.
Yes its a good first attempt into Ferrari territory and a fantastic car but somehow I can't get it out of my mind that its slightly flawed from the outset and never really lived up to the 458.
Watching back all the old experts comparisons on U tube unanimously votes for 458
GRBF430F1 said:
Regards the 650S front end I absolutely love it and if its good enough for the P1 .......
Look more carefully. The P1 and 650S do not have the same front end at all... The P1 is a nice well proportioned smooth nose.The 650S is not as good looking and messy with lines that are not well integrated.
But I accept that this is subjective and people might like it. Others won't. But it will not age well.
12C too bland. Well I thought that too originally. And yes it is a safer design. But it has a lot more 'class' and as a daily drive a lot less in your face and more discreet. Works for me.
GRBF430F1 said:
Watching back all the old experts comparisons on U tube unanimously votes for 458
It has been a long time I stopped believing what the old experts say for the sake of creating news. Their opinions are flawed anyway because they do not look at those cars in the same way we do. They do not work to earn to drive them for starters.I always drive the cars and draw my own conclusions. We are all different and expect, or search for, something different.
I can understand that some people like the Fezza aura or image.
Performance wise, the cars are very close.
I prefer the driving experience of the 12C. Others will prefer the one of the 458. So be it.
Agree on the 650s front end - doesn't quite gel with the rest of the car. Seems like a knee jerk reaction.
The 458 will also keep 12c prices up. If you drive this £110k 12c you will see just how much of a bargain it is. Nothing else in this price bracket even comes close. A 2010 458 will probably be £140k.......
The 458 will also keep 12c prices up. If you drive this £110k 12c you will see just how much of a bargain it is. Nothing else in this price bracket even comes close. A 2010 458 will probably be £140k.......
Brittle Group selling the cheap 12C are also Ludo, the Supercar Hire People.
http://www.ludosupercarhire.co.uk/select/index.htm
One owner, but 500 drivers?
http://www.ludosupercarhire.co.uk/select/index.htm
One owner, but 500 drivers?
12C is a fantastic car. I bought a heavily discounted new spider last November and have done 9,000 miles in it - almost all of them on long distance road trips to Scotland and Europe, with other exotics (Speciale, 458, F12, Aventador etc.) The 12C is probably the fastest point to point on road and is an absolutely remarkable car.
I think the difference between the 12C and 650 is very minimal, except for the ugly front end on the 650 (which is personal taste as mentioned before). Steve Sutcliffe spent the 'press life' of the12C telling us that other people thought it was a bit anodyne but not him - he couldn't decide which was better, the 12C or the 458 and said that both were brilliant. Then the 650 came out and he said 'far better than the 12C' but his publication still placed it behind the 458. Some things journalists say are nonsense and you have to read between the lines a bit.
A used 12C is unbeatable value, but I would personally stick to the Spider because the carbon tub gives a great reason to own the car in Spider form - it has a key advantage over other Spiders and as such, I reckon it will do quite well over the next few years. Not sure how long I will keep mine but it could be quite a while. My wife loves it, even with extremely hard driving.
As for the performance, it is barking mad! It takes a while to get to know the car and you need warm dry conditions to get the thing working really well, but when you get to that point, it is a brilliant experience.
After 9,000 fairly hard miles (although I always take care of my cars) it feels rock solid. Being exotic, a 12C will probably not fare as well as a Porsche in terms of being sensitive to mileage, but being british and fairly solid feeling, I think they will not be as sensitive as Ferraris.
Given what my car cost, I think it is still worth not far away from that figure, even after putting a decent amount of miles on. It is a 2014 late 12C, in decent colour spec and with nice options. About £150k is where I reckon it sits. In 2 years time (3 years old) with about 18k miles - I will slow down a bit and put mileage onto some of my other cars - I don't see it being less than about £125k, around half of list. Not terrible.
An early coupe at £100k with high miles or even £120k for a lower mileage car has to be about as good value as you can get in the used Supercar world right now. You will have an unbelievable car that can go quicker than most other cars and yet will give you a depreciation cost of not more than £5k per year I reckon.
Tell me what modern Supercar will be better value than that?
I think the difference between the 12C and 650 is very minimal, except for the ugly front end on the 650 (which is personal taste as mentioned before). Steve Sutcliffe spent the 'press life' of the12C telling us that other people thought it was a bit anodyne but not him - he couldn't decide which was better, the 12C or the 458 and said that both were brilliant. Then the 650 came out and he said 'far better than the 12C' but his publication still placed it behind the 458. Some things journalists say are nonsense and you have to read between the lines a bit.
A used 12C is unbeatable value, but I would personally stick to the Spider because the carbon tub gives a great reason to own the car in Spider form - it has a key advantage over other Spiders and as such, I reckon it will do quite well over the next few years. Not sure how long I will keep mine but it could be quite a while. My wife loves it, even with extremely hard driving.
As for the performance, it is barking mad! It takes a while to get to know the car and you need warm dry conditions to get the thing working really well, but when you get to that point, it is a brilliant experience.
After 9,000 fairly hard miles (although I always take care of my cars) it feels rock solid. Being exotic, a 12C will probably not fare as well as a Porsche in terms of being sensitive to mileage, but being british and fairly solid feeling, I think they will not be as sensitive as Ferraris.
Given what my car cost, I think it is still worth not far away from that figure, even after putting a decent amount of miles on. It is a 2014 late 12C, in decent colour spec and with nice options. About £150k is where I reckon it sits. In 2 years time (3 years old) with about 18k miles - I will slow down a bit and put mileage onto some of my other cars - I don't see it being less than about £125k, around half of list. Not terrible.
An early coupe at £100k with high miles or even £120k for a lower mileage car has to be about as good value as you can get in the used Supercar world right now. You will have an unbelievable car that can go quicker than most other cars and yet will give you a depreciation cost of not more than £5k per year I reckon.
Tell me what modern Supercar will be better value than that?
Edited by LukeyLikey on Friday 28th November 18:49
LukeyLikey said:
12C is a fantastic car. I bought a heavily discounted new spider last November and have done 9,000 miles in it - almost all of them on long distance road trips to Scotland and Europe, with other exotics (Speciale, 458, F12, Aventador etc.) The 12C is probably the fastest point to point on road and is an absolutely remarkable car.
I think the difference between the 12C and 650 is very minimal, except for the ugly front end on the 650 (which is personal taste as mentioned before). Steve Sutcliffe spent the 'press life' of the12C telling us that other people thought it was a bit anodyne but not him - he couldn't decide which was better, the 12C or the 458 and said that both were brilliant. Then the 650 came out and he said 'far better than the 12C' but his publication still placed it behind the 458. Some things journalists say are nonsense and you have to read between the lines a bit.
A used 12C is unbeatable value, but I would personally stick to the Spider because the carbon tub gives a great reason to own the car in Spider form - it has a key advantage over other Spiders and as such, I reckon it will do quite well over the next few years. Not sure how long I will keep mine but it could be quite a while. My wife loves it, even with extremely hard driving.
As for the performance, it is barking mad! It takes a while to get to know the car and you need warm dry conditions to get the thing working really well, but when you get to that point, it is a brilliant experience.
After 9,000 fairly hard miles (although I always take care of my cars) it feels rock solid. Being exotic, a 12C will probably not fare as well as a Porsche in terms of being sensitive to mileage, but being british and fairly solid feeling, I think they will not be as sensitive as Ferraris.
Given what my car cost, I think it is still worth not far away from that figure, even after putting a decent amount of miles on. It is a 2014 late 12C, in decent colour spec and with nice options. About £150k is where I reckon it sits. In 2 years time (3 years old) with about 18k miles - I will slow down a bit and put mileage onto some of my other cars - I don't see it being less than about £125k, around half of list. Not terrible.
An early coupe at £100k with high miles or even £120k for a lower mileage car has to be about as good value as you can get in the used Supercar world right now. You will have an unbelievable car that can go quicker than most other cars and yet will give you a depreciation cost of not more than £5k per year I reckon.
Tell me what modern Supercar will be better value than that?
Yeah I can see a lot of sense in that but you must have had a great deal on the new car in the first place as used 18 mth spiders are between £150 and £165 now and you say at £150 you haven't lost a lot.I think the difference between the 12C and 650 is very minimal, except for the ugly front end on the 650 (which is personal taste as mentioned before). Steve Sutcliffe spent the 'press life' of the12C telling us that other people thought it was a bit anodyne but not him - he couldn't decide which was better, the 12C or the 458 and said that both were brilliant. Then the 650 came out and he said 'far better than the 12C' but his publication still placed it behind the 458. Some things journalists say are nonsense and you have to read between the lines a bit.
A used 12C is unbeatable value, but I would personally stick to the Spider because the carbon tub gives a great reason to own the car in Spider form - it has a key advantage over other Spiders and as such, I reckon it will do quite well over the next few years. Not sure how long I will keep mine but it could be quite a while. My wife loves it, even with extremely hard driving.
As for the performance, it is barking mad! It takes a while to get to know the car and you need warm dry conditions to get the thing working really well, but when you get to that point, it is a brilliant experience.
After 9,000 fairly hard miles (although I always take care of my cars) it feels rock solid. Being exotic, a 12C will probably not fare as well as a Porsche in terms of being sensitive to mileage, but being british and fairly solid feeling, I think they will not be as sensitive as Ferraris.
Given what my car cost, I think it is still worth not far away from that figure, even after putting a decent amount of miles on. It is a 2014 late 12C, in decent colour spec and with nice options. About £150k is where I reckon it sits. In 2 years time (3 years old) with about 18k miles - I will slow down a bit and put mileage onto some of my other cars - I don't see it being less than about £125k, around half of list. Not terrible.
An early coupe at £100k with high miles or even £120k for a lower mileage car has to be about as good value as you can get in the used Supercar world right now. You will have an unbelievable car that can go quicker than most other cars and yet will give you a depreciation cost of not more than £5k per year I reckon.
Tell me what modern Supercar will be better value than that?
Edited by LukeyLikey on Friday 28th November 18:49
Its the spider that is gradually growing on me rather than the coupe but being a Ferrari man and boy I kind of think that spending the extra £30k is always going to return the extra £30k or more on resale.
The McLaren is different and technically better on paper but all these reviews saying the 458 is better and more FUN coupled with depreciation concerns on the Mac is what puts me off.
Do you think that as the 12 C spider drops the equivalent 458 will and the gap be maintained. Not sure the Mac would be a keeper so don't want to take a bath over a short tenure if I get bored quickly
You just need to drive both & see which one you prefer. I went from 360-430 & expected to buy the 458. Had multiple test drives for both the 458 & 12C and ended up the 12c. I prefer the 12c and thought it was a better car. Some will agree & others with disagree with my choice but ultimately it doesn't matter.. It is what the car does for you! Choose the one you want & not what magazines/ car reviews say..
I would have thought depreciation curve for both will be pretty similar one with the 12c having taken the bigger initial hit & with them being a less common sight. Even in London, one does not see that many 12C around but loads of 458...they are stunning value cars at present..,,
I would have thought depreciation curve for both will be pretty similar one with the 12c having taken the bigger initial hit & with them being a less common sight. Even in London, one does not see that many 12C around but loads of 458...they are stunning value cars at present..,,
GRBF430F1 said:
Yeah I can see a lot of sense in that but you must have had a great deal on the new car in the first place as used 18 mth spiders are between £150 and £165 now and you say at £150 you haven't lost a lot.
Its the spider that is gradually growing on me rather than the coupe but being a Ferrari man and boy I kind of think that spending the extra £30k is always going to return the extra £30k or more on resale.
The McLaren is different and technically better on paper but all these reviews saying the 458 is better and more FUN coupled with depreciation concerns on the Mac is what puts me off.
Do you think that as the 12 C spider drops the equivalent 458 will and the gap be maintained. Not sure the Mac would be a keeper so don't want to take a bath over a short tenure if I get bored quickly
Hard to say, but you have a Scud, so a 12C is well worth a try - I have had Ferraris too and wouldn't really be without one. The 12C is a different experience to a 458 Spider and worth a go if you're keeping the Scud. On that basis, I don't think the difference in depreciation between the two will be material. Just a guess though. When that day eventually arrives, I don't think you will object if the cost is a bit extra because you wil have enjoyed the differences the McLaren has given to you.Its the spider that is gradually growing on me rather than the coupe but being a Ferrari man and boy I kind of think that spending the extra £30k is always going to return the extra £30k or more on resale.
The McLaren is different and technically better on paper but all these reviews saying the 458 is better and more FUN coupled with depreciation concerns on the Mac is what puts me off.
Do you think that as the 12 C spider drops the equivalent 458 will and the gap be maintained. Not sure the Mac would be a keeper so don't want to take a bath over a short tenure if I get bored quickly
You will surprised at the extra speed in a 12C - it is another level (in fact two other levels) compared to the Scud and the Lambo. If you can drive reasonably well, almost nothing will leave you on the road, including a 650, whereas you will be able to leave most cars behind.
LukeyLikey said:
Hard to say, but you have a Scud, so a 12C is well worth a try - I have had Ferraris too and wouldn't really be without one. The 12C is a different experience to a 458 Spider and worth a go if you're keeping the Scud. On that basis, I don't think the difference in depreciation between the two will be material. Just a guess though. When that day eventually arrives, I don't think you will object if the cost is a bit extra because you wil have enjoyed the differences the McLaren has given to you.
You will surprised at the extra speed in a 12C - it is another level (in fact two other levels) compared to the Scud and the Lambo. If you can drive reasonably well, almost nothing will leave you on the road, including a 650, whereas you will be able to leave most cars behind.
The exclusivity and being different to Ferrari does appeal and maybe the compromise between sports cars and creature comforts for the missus. Just don't like taking a tonking on values as I do chop and change far too often. If it was going to be a keeper like my others it doesn't really matter so much but even still I'm not rich enough to be throwing money away with my stupid car obsession.You will surprised at the extra speed in a 12C - it is another level (in fact two other levels) compared to the Scud and the Lambo. If you can drive reasonably well, almost nothing will leave you on the road, including a 650, whereas you will be able to leave most cars behind.
Strangely enough she loves the 2 yellow ones advertised but I'm not so sure on that. I think a more subtle colour suits the McLaren and is better for resale
GRBF430F1 said:
The exclusivity and being different to Ferrari does appeal and maybe the compromise between sports cars and creature comforts for the missus. Just don't like taking a tonking on values as I do chop and change far too often. If it was going to be a keeper like my others it doesn't really matter so much but even still I'm not rich enough to be throwing money away with my stupid car obsession.
Strangely enough she loves the 2 yellow ones advertised but I'm not so sure on that. I think a more subtle colour suits the McLaren and is better for resale
Definitely agree on that. Didn't like VO but would have considered VR. Ended up with black after considering white. I think black with stealth pack is a great way to go, although the silver is apparently spectacular. If you put decent (10k pa) mileage on, I can't see you losing more than £8k pa on a car already well into its depreciation curve. The sheer performance of the thing will keep it dropping below 430s, which are steady at around £80k for late cars. For a Spider, which has a unique appeal in the 'spider' world, can it go below a 458 by more than 15-20%? Since they are about there now, you should be ok with a £100-£120k coupe and a £140k+ Spider. Going above £160k is when it could get expensive.Strangely enough she loves the 2 yellow ones advertised but I'm not so sure on that. I think a more subtle colour suits the McLaren and is better for resale
)Very interesting discussion.
I've been looking at the 650s, there are a few cars coming onto the used market now and some of them appear to have tanked a lot. Couple of cars that were 270ish new going for 200's.They possibly may have been press cars but that's a vertiginous drop in 6 months.
I think the whole "must have all the carbon options" thing will mean heavy losses in the first year or so. Mclaren options seem pricey compared to other marques.
I've been looking at the 650s, there are a few cars coming onto the used market now and some of them appear to have tanked a lot. Couple of cars that were 270ish new going for 200's.They possibly may have been press cars but that's a vertiginous drop in 6 months.
I think the whole "must have all the carbon options" thing will mean heavy losses in the first year or so. Mclaren options seem pricey compared to other marques.
br d said:
Very interesting discussion.
I've been looking at the 650s, there are a few cars coming onto the used market now and some of them appear to have tanked a lot. Couple of cars that were 270ish new going for 200's.They possibly may have been press cars but that's a vertiginous drop in 6 months.
I think the whole "must have all the carbon options" thing will mean heavy losses in the first year or so. Mclaren options seem pricey compared to other marques.
Pretty sure the early cars are PRESS cars but even so sub £200k less a DEAL makes them seemingly good value versus 12 Spiders at £170k. In a few years time of low mileage the 8,000 in 1st year will be diluted and the gap to a late 12C may actually widen.I've been looking at the 650s, there are a few cars coming onto the used market now and some of them appear to have tanked a lot. Couple of cars that were 270ish new going for 200's.They possibly may have been press cars but that's a vertiginous drop in 6 months.
I think the whole "must have all the carbon options" thing will mean heavy losses in the first year or so. Mclaren options seem pricey compared to other marques.
That said you can get £40k off a new 650S with a list of £260k. Not sure what this is going to do to help 12C spider residuals
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