Are Mclarens Mileage Sensitive ?
Discussion
mb1 said:
Hi Andy, I was interested to see that you moved to a McLaren. Another driver moving from an Aston to a McLaren.
Michael (remember the CFRP key cases
)
Hi Michael, how's things? Much as I loved the Astons I had, in driving terms both Ferrari and McLaren were preferable for me.Michael (remember the CFRP key cases
)GRBF430F1 said:
Pretty sure the early cars are PRESS cars but even so sub £200k less a DEAL makes them seemingly good value versus 12 Spiders at £170k. In a few years time of low mileage the 8,000 in 1st year will be diluted and the gap to a late 12C may actually widen.
That said you can get £40k off a new 650S with a list of £260k. Not sure what this is going to do to help 12C spider residuals
Help them IMV. 12C retails started from a much lower point. A decent spec 12C Spider retailed about £220-£230k, a £30k head start over a 650. 12 months ago nearly new 12Cs were about £170k, so £200k for a fairly well used 650, while big in depreciation terms, still looks expensive against today's 12C. Seems like a 12 month newer 650 is about £50k more than a 12C.That said you can get £40k off a new 650S with a list of £260k. Not sure what this is going to do to help 12C spider residuals
I post a bit on McLife and, for the record, I have a long held view of being critical of 650. I think it was a mistake for McLaren (irrelevant if you're considering to buy one) but I also think it is quite ugly. The 12C seems designed 'all of a piece' where they did half a job with the 650. A new designer was brought in and he put his 'corporate face' on the front of an existing design. It is not well balanced or resolved in my view. Highly subjective, of course.
If 650 floats your boat aesthetically, you will probably be irritated if you don't choose it, if you're not bothered about the appearance, the higher depreciation may not be worth it. People who have owned both seem to range from saying there is 'little difference' to 'the handling is much improved and less floaty in normal mode'. Most say it feels a bit more sprightly but that it isn't really significantly faster.
GRBF430F1 said:
That said you can get £40k off a new 650S with a list of £260k. Not sure what this is going to do to help 12C spider residuals
I've seen this alluded to a few times now, how are people getting 40k off list? Just a cash offer of "This is what I'm willing to pay"? Has anyone here done this?
br d said:
I've seen this alluded to a few times now, how are people getting 40k off list? Just a cash offer of "This is what I'm willing to pay"? Has anyone here done this?
That's the deal I was offered on one only yesterday but at this stage I've declined. If that's how they do business and discount on a brand new model car I fear for the residual valuebr d said:
I've seen this alluded to a few times now, how are people getting 40k off list? Just a cash offer of "This is what I'm willing to pay"? Has anyone here done this?
My understanding is you can drive a very hard deal on existing stock (which will include delivery mileage cars). Ordering from new to your spec I don't think that kind of deal is possible......yet.would suggest a good drive in both before you decide unless you're already sold on the looks of the 650. The 650 is a facelifted 12c but it does feel quite different, or at least to me. Much more torque, considerably firmer ride and (rather more of an issue for me) the steering is much faster and imo too shifty with less feel. It is more in line with that of the 458 though.
isaldiri said:
My understanding is you can drive a very hard deal on existing stock (which will include delivery mileage cars). Ordering from new to your spec I don't think that kind of deal is possible......yet.
would suggest a good drive in both before you decide unless you're already sold on the looks of the 650. The 650 is a facelifted 12c but it does feel quite different, or at least to me. Much more torque, considerably firmer ride and (rather more of an issue for me) the steering is much faster and imo too shifty with less feel. It is more in line with that of the 458 though.
Is it worth £50k more than a 18 month old 13 plate 12C spider with 7,000 miles ?would suggest a good drive in both before you decide unless you're already sold on the looks of the 650. The 650 is a facelifted 12c but it does feel quite different, or at least to me. Much more torque, considerably firmer ride and (rather more of an issue for me) the steering is much faster and imo too shifty with less feel. It is more in line with that of the 458 though.
GRBF430F1 said:
Is it worth £50k more than a 18 month old 13 plate 12C spider with 7,000 miles ?
Not to me but simarly to lukeylikey I don't particularly care for the P1 face grafted onto the 12c as it makes the whole design very unintegrated to my mind. In a dark colour it's less of an issue to be fair. The 650 I have to admit feels built a lot better than the 12c, even the late ones so that is the one thing that is occasionally tempting to make the change but at the current cost, I think I can live with my car feeling less well bolted together.isaldiri said:
Not to me but simarly to lukeylikey I don't particularly care for the P1 face grafted onto the 12c as it makes the whole design very unintegrated to my mind. In a dark colour it's less of an issue to be fair. The 650 I have to admit feels built a lot better than the 12c, even the late ones so that is the one thing that is occasionally tempting to make the change but at the current cost, I think I can live with my car feeling less well bolted together.
I wonder if part of this 'bolted together better' feeling is to do with the suspension changes? My late 12C feels very solid indeed. I have just developed the first mild rattle (the cover over the instrument binnacle). Most of the parts are not new with the 650 and only running changes can be made - which McLaren would not wait for a new model to introduce. Therefore, there seems to be no real reason that an early 650 would be any different in quality terms to the 12C, at least for the 75% parts that are carry-over. The other 25% are engine components and body components plus the suspension alteration.My conclusion would be that the stiffer suspension must help with the impression that the car is more solid, and the fact that there may have been constant quality evolution means that an early 650 should feel quite different to an early 12C (although there is some who believe the very earliest cars were given a much more thorough QA and rectification). If this conclusion were correct, quality improvement on a 650 over a late 12C would be negligible.
Edited by LukeyLikey on Monday 1st December 11:10
LukeyLikey said:
I wonder if part of this 'bolted together better' feeling is to do with the suspension changes? My late 12C feels very solid indeed. I have just developed the first mild rattle (the cover over the instrument binnacle). Most of the parts are not new with the 650 and only running changes can be made - which McLaren would not wait for a new model to introduce. Therefore, there seems to be no real reason what an early 650 would be any different in quality terms to the 12C, at least for the 75% parts that are carry-over. The other 25% are engine components and body components plus the suspension alteration.
My conclusion would be that the stiffer suspension must help with the impression that the car is more solid, and the fact that there may have been constant quality evolution means that an early 650 should feel quite different to an early 12C (although there is some who believe the very earliest cars were given a much more thorough QA and rectification). If this conclusion were correct, quality improvement on a 650 over a late 12C would be negligible.
It's not just a suspension issue I think and if anything I would assume making the suspension stiffer would have made Mclaren more keen on making sure the build quality was further improved as the firmer suspension would show up any rattles/etc more obviously. The 650 has cut out the occasionally odd sense of 'float' one gets in the 12c with the suspension changes but that isn't linked to the feeling of the car being bolted together better.My conclusion would be that the stiffer suspension must help with the impression that the car is more solid, and the fact that there may have been constant quality evolution means that an early 650 should feel quite different to an early 12C (although there is some who believe the very earliest cars were given a much more thorough QA and rectification). If this conclusion were correct, quality improvement on a 650 over a late 12C would be negligible.
Have driven 2 650s and (I think) 4 12Cs in a range of VINs from sub 100 to ~2400 and while the later 12c definitely feels bolted together better as you would expect from being later production cars, the 650s feels a (smaller) step over even the last 12c. I vaguely remember one of the factory linked people mentioning build quality was one of the things they targeted about the 650 (along with taking out the carbon tub 'thump') when I remarked on the build difference as well for what that's worth.
isaldiri said:
It's not just a suspension issue I think and if anything I would assume making the suspension stiffer would have made Mclaren more keen on making sure the build quality was further improved as the firmer suspension would show up any rattles/etc more obviously. The 650 has cut out the occasionally odd sense of 'float' one gets in the 12c with the suspension changes but that isn't linked to the feeling of the car being bolted together better.
Have driven 2 650s and (I think) 4 12Cs in a range of VINs from sub 100 to ~2400 and while the later 12c definitely feels bolted together better as you would expect from being later production cars, the 650s feels a (smaller) step over even the last 12c. I vaguely remember one of the factory linked people mentioning build quality was one of the things they targeted about the 650 (along with taking out the carbon tub 'thump') when I remarked on the build difference as well for what that's worth.
I still think my general point about quality holds though. My VIN is over 3000 and the changeover was around 3500 (so a 2400 car would still have seen improvements up to 3400 - pre 650 - and beyond that point too). The way manufacturers work with suppliers does not easily allow them to all bring an updated item for a specific VIN number, from which a face lifted model will be produced. Nor would they want to wait until the new car to introduce changes that are needed for customer satisfaction purposes - all manufacturers make 'quiet' ongoing changes during production.Have driven 2 650s and (I think) 4 12Cs in a range of VINs from sub 100 to ~2400 and while the later 12c definitely feels bolted together better as you would expect from being later production cars, the 650s feels a (smaller) step over even the last 12c. I vaguely remember one of the factory linked people mentioning build quality was one of the things they targeted about the 650 (along with taking out the carbon tub 'thump') when I remarked on the build difference as well for what that's worth.
For example, when you supply spare parts to a car, the spare parts catalogue will include 'supercession' part numbers, where parts have been updated or suppliers changed from a certain VIN for the exact same model - this happens all the time and for every manufacturer.
My only point is that the 'logic test' suggests that the only way 650 can be a jump in quality over the last of the 12Cs is due to any design changes that have mandated different parts altogether. Any carry-over parts would have been subject to ongoing improvement both before and after 650 SOP, also meaning that later 650 will be better than earlier 650.
I should add that what people perceive as quality often isn't the same as real quality. For instance, some things impact the quality feeling heavily, but are not really that material to how well a car is built - an example would be a door shut. If the door shuts with a satisfying 'thunk' it greatly improves the impression of quality. But this is 'tuneable', meaning that your door may be made from the thinnest steel, with the poorest hinges and the weakest rubber but still be 'tuned' to sound great.
So, it may be that there are feelings of improved quality coming from better training/management of assemblers - that would happen gradually over time and not necessarily for a new model - plus it is possible that they have tried to 'tune' the quality feeling of the new car - different rubber door seals or a slightly different resistance to the steering rack for instance (not saying they have done exactly this but perhaps something similar).
The impression of quality is not the same thing as real quality, which is much harder to influence without changing the design of the car and components, especially BIW, suspension, panel fit, interior materials and fit plus ongoing assembly quality. Most of the panels are the same and the interior is the same so it is quite difficult to see where this improvement is coming from other than ongoing assembly improvements and supplier 'fit' improvements.
I'll shut up now!
So, it may be that there are feelings of improved quality coming from better training/management of assemblers - that would happen gradually over time and not necessarily for a new model - plus it is possible that they have tried to 'tune' the quality feeling of the new car - different rubber door seals or a slightly different resistance to the steering rack for instance (not saying they have done exactly this but perhaps something similar).
The impression of quality is not the same thing as real quality, which is much harder to influence without changing the design of the car and components, especially BIW, suspension, panel fit, interior materials and fit plus ongoing assembly quality. Most of the panels are the same and the interior is the same so it is quite difficult to see where this improvement is coming from other than ongoing assembly improvements and supplier 'fit' improvements.
I'll shut up now!
Edited by LukeyLikey on Monday 1st December 12:02
LukeyLikey said:
so a 2400 car would still have seen improvements up to 3400 - pre 650 - and beyond that point too). The way manufacturers work with suppliers does not easily allow them to all bring an updated item for a specific VIN number, from which a face lifted model will be produced. Nor would they want to wait until the new car to introduce changes that are needed for customer satisfaction purposes - all manufacturers make 'quiet' ongoing changes during production.
My only point is that the 'logic test' suggests that the only way 650 can be a jump in quality over the last of the 12Cs is due to any design changes that have mandated different parts altogether. Any carry-over parts would have been subject to ongoing improvement both before and after 650 SOP, also meaning that later 650 will be better than earlier 650.
Not disagreeing about general ongoing improvements over production. My impression (which might well be wrong) and if one believes what the factory linked people have suggested (debatable again admittedly!) is that the 650 shows a (slight) build quality improvement over and above the generic improvements one would expect.My only point is that the 'logic test' suggests that the only way 650 can be a jump in quality over the last of the 12Cs is due to any design changes that have mandated different parts altogether. Any carry-over parts would have been subject to ongoing improvement both before and after 650 SOP, also meaning that later 650 will be better than earlier 650.
Soov535 said:
If it's an ex hire then it will have been ragged to death by every innit in town.
Imagine marrying the girl of your dreams and then finding out that she worked in the windows in Amsterdam for three years before she met you. It'd be a disappointment non?!
Depends surely.. if the PPI is clear and she rides perfectly well still (and at a big discount).. why not...? Imagine marrying the girl of your dreams and then finding out that she worked in the windows in Amsterdam for three years before she met you. It'd be a disappointment non?!
isaldiri said:
Soov535 said:
If it's an ex hire then it will have been ragged to death by every innit in town.
Imagine marrying the girl of your dreams and then finding out that she worked in the windows in Amsterdam for three years before she met you. It'd be a disappointment non?!
Depends surely.. if the PPI is clear and she rides perfectly well still (and at a big discount).. why not...? Imagine marrying the girl of your dreams and then finding out that she worked in the windows in Amsterdam for three years before she met you. It'd be a disappointment non?!
If it had a McLaren warranty I'd be tempted but I'd probably only still give £80k.
Soov535 said:
isaldiri said:
Soov535 said:
If it's an ex hire then it will have been ragged to death by every innit in town.
Imagine marrying the girl of your dreams and then finding out that she worked in the windows in Amsterdam for three years before she met you. It'd be a disappointment non?!
Depends surely.. if the PPI is clear and she rides perfectly well still (and at a big discount).. why not...? Imagine marrying the girl of your dreams and then finding out that she worked in the windows in Amsterdam for three years before she met you. It'd be a disappointment non?!
If it had a McLaren warranty I'd be tempted but I'd probably only still give £80k.
andymc said:
Soov535 said:
isaldiri said:
Soov535 said:
If it's an ex hire then it will have been ragged to death by every innit in town.
Imagine marrying the girl of your dreams and then finding out that she worked in the windows in Amsterdam for three years before she met you. It'd be a disappointment non?!
Depends surely.. if the PPI is clear and she rides perfectly well still (and at a big discount).. why not...? Imagine marrying the girl of your dreams and then finding out that she worked in the windows in Amsterdam for three years before she met you. It'd be a disappointment non?!
If it had a McLaren warranty I'd be tempted but I'd probably only still give £80k.
GRBF430F1 said:
How do we rate the quality of 12C spider versus 458 spider ? I've read that the carbon tub makes it more rigid but what about the other fit and finish items, sat nav and stereo etc...
Sat Nav and stereo perfect, really nice fit. Honestly, everything on my car is as it should be - very, very tight. Much more so than a 360, 430, even California (which was also good) and at the level of my 911.I think the carbon tub is the main reason for it staying as tight as when I first got it.
Sounds to me like you need to drive a few to put your mind at rest but I don't think any reason not to buy one is down to its sturdiness. I think they will fare very well over the long term too.
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