675LT?

[Slickhillsy]

isaldiri said:

Yes really....Exactly how is a speciale or scuderia a limited production car when even Ferrari never specified how many they were going to limit production to when they were busy churning out as many as they could at the end of the 430/458 production run?

as for the 16M numbers - some light reading if you are interested...

https://www.ferraris-online.com/pages/article.php?...

Depends on your definition of 'limited'.
A. Output specifically numbered aka 499 16M's and 458 Aperta's
B. Limited in comparison to the base model aka Scuderia & Speciale

Either of the above can be used to describe the difference between F430 / Scud || F430 Spider / 16M 458 and so on...

As for the article, started reading it and will finish it off as it makes good reading but the opening statement (albeit a 2013 article) has been proven slightly incorrect (which is a good thing ) which in time (as no one can ever really know) could be 100% wrong...

"Will the modern Ferraris, such as the Scuderia, the 16M, the 599 GTO or the 599 SA Aperta become classics like the Lusso, the 275 GTB or other collectable earlier Ferraris”? Sadly the answer is “no”. The collectability of anything, be it Ferraris, coins, stamps or whatever, is in large part inversely related to the number built and far too many modern Ferraris are now being built to ever be anything more than the latest-greatest exotic, and then only until the next newer-and-faster model comes along. The numbers tell the story."

Sure - at this point in time modern 'limited' cars are miles off the true classic collectible bench mark, and that will never change (as in they are not likely to catch-up) as the margin will be (relatively) maintained as time moves on. However, these cars are already proving of interest to collectors as shown in their price delta to the stock car and as history shows over time, say 20 years from now they will command a premium. What that premium is - who knows...

[flemke]

johnnyreggae said:

OK - devil's advocate here: most of you are Ferrari converts and Ferrari has regularly done exactly the same eg Scud/16M & Speciale/Aperta

Why is this different and/or why did you expect any different ?

One view (not from a "Ferrari convert", but I think this motive for going with McLaren is not uncommon):

Being realistic about it, Ferrari products and McLaren products are roughly the same. One can split a lot of hairs, but, because any product by either company can easily do things that vastly exceed an owner's ability to exploit those things, whether one or the other is 0.2 seconds/lap faster or 0.1 sec quicker in 0-60 is an utter irrelevance. The performance of all Ferraris and all McLarens is off any real-world chart.

One is therefore left with choosing on the basis of personal preference, taste, identification with the ethos of one brand or the other. Although ethos is relatively unimportant in differentiating between BMW and Merc or between Aston and Jaguar, the difference in ethos between Ferrari and McLaren has a lot to do with one's buying decision.

Ferrari residuals have been the best in the industry for quite some time. When you buy anything but a Ferrari, you expect to lose more money, or (in rare cases) make less money, than you would do if you had bought the Ferrari counterpart instead.

If buying a McLaren means that you're getting the same objective machine as you would if you were to buy a Ferrari, but over time the McLaren is likely to cost you more, what is it in the personal preference, taste and ethos that would induce you to pay more for essentially the same thing?

Ferrari are thought to have crossed the integrity line far too often. Whether that be cheating in racing or building twice as many of exactly the same car as they said they would do or the high-handed behaviour of authorised dealers or dishonest test results or threatening journalists or unjustifiable favouritism towards certain customers, their ethical history is nothing to be proud of.

To an important degree, McLaren fans are attracted to McLaren precisely because we believe that, following the example of Bruce McLaren himself, the modern McLaren company is above the gutter-level behaviour of Ferrari. We are willing to buy a McLaren that will cost us more than the equivalent Ferrari because we want to associate with honourable people, not with toe-rags.

Yes, the global car industry is tough, a company has got to be profitable to survive, and it took balls for Ron Dennis and his investors even to attempt what they have done. Nonetheless, many of us expected a lot more transparency and a higher standard of respect for the client than what McLaren have demonstrated recently.

Having nailed our colours to McLaren's mast, when McLaren seem to act in a Ferrari-like manner, we feel let down, even betrayed.

[flemke]

TP321 said:

flemke said:

And therefore...?

...therefore they were only sold to existing P1 owners, hence the exclusivity is maintained by those original P1 owners.

I think perhaps you miss the point.

If there are more cars in existence, each individual car is less rare. The number of individual owners may not have increased at present, but surely you do not think that in future all the GTRs will stay in the hands of people who also own P1s. It is certain that there will come a time (one suspects that it has already happened) when not everyone who owns a GTR will also own a P1. People will buy GTRs although, if the GTR did not exist, they would have bought P1s. Therefore less demand for P1s.

Increasing the effective build run from 375 to approx 420 is the lesser issue. The greater issue is that the P1 was marketed by McLaren as the best track-focused "normal" (as opposed to pure racing) car they were capable of making. McLaren also made it clear that there would be no successor car to the P1 for the foreseeable future, roughly the next decade.

Yet before most clients had even taken delivery of their P1s, McLaren were announcing a better track-focused car than the P1. That action could not help but devalue the P1, not to mention insulting the 375 customers who had committed to stumping about a million quid each. That was not on.

[Slickhillsy]

flemke said:

The greater issue is that the P1 was marketed by McLaren as the best track-focused "normal" (as opposed to pure racing) car they were capable of making.

Is this still not the case. Cant ever remember seeing a GTR with a number plate on it...?

flemke said:

McLaren also made it clear that there would be no successor car to the P1 for the foreseeable future, roughly

and because of the above ^^ there's no reason why this is still not the case... Remeber the GTR is a race car, if they have release the GTR with a race / road use option then you'd have an argument...

flemke said:

Having nailed our colours to McLaren's mast, when Mclaren seem to act in a Ferrari-like manner, we feel let down, even betrayed.

Really don't get the level of bitterness here? They are after all running a niche business and trying to get the balance of exclusivity vs. availability and sustainability. All manufactures are guilty of it and they certainly don't do it to say feck you to their fans and client base intentionally as you insinuate...
So would you rather them cut on quality & spec or roll a few more hundred (AMAZING) units out the door.

Jaguar with engine shift of XJ220
Ducati were supposed to make on 800 Desmosedici RR's yet 1500 rolled off the line - I bought in here, couldn't give a monkeys. Bikes residuals are bomb-proof, still exclusive (if you like that sort of thing) spec is stunning and it's mega to ride.

[WCZ]

what upgrades from the P1 GTR couldn't feasibly have been fitted to the P1 due to road compliance issues - aside from the slick tyres?

[Slickhillsy]

WCZ said:

what upgrades from the P1 GTR couldn't feasibly have been fitted to the P1 due to road compliance issues - aside from the slick tyres?

None / all / no idea...

Fact is though - they didn't!

[WCZ]

Slickhillsy said:

Fact is though - they didn't!

if all of them could have been fitted and they held back on fitting them to the P1 for the purpose of creating a second more extreme version (the GTR) then i'd dispute the ethos of 'ultimate road legal track car' that Mclaren was supposedly applied to the P1.

[cc8s]

Slickhillsy said:

isaldiri said:

Yes really....Exactly how is a speciale or scuderia a limited production car when even Ferrari never specified how many they were going to limit production to when they were busy churning out as many as they could at the end of the 430/458 production run?

as for the 16M numbers - some light reading if you are interested...

https://www.ferraris-online.com/pages/article.php?...

Depends on your definition of 'limited'.
A. Output specifically numbered aka 499 16M's and 458 Aperta's
B. Limited in comparison to the base model aka Scuderia & Speciale

I would say that is the difference between 'limited edition' and 'sepcial edition'.

[flemke]

Slickhillsy said:

flemke said:

The greater issue is that the P1 was marketed by McLaren as the best track-focused "normal" (as opposed to pure racing) car they were capable of making.

Is this still not the case. Cant ever remember seeing a GTR with a number plate on it...?

Is this like a black swan - if you have not personally seen one, they must not exist?

They definitely do exist. See for example Autocar from 6 months ago:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/road-le...

slickhillsy said:

flemke said:

McLaren also made it clear that there would be no successor car to the P1 for the foreseeable future, roughly

and because of the above ^^ there's no reason why this is still not the case... Remeber the GTR is a race car, if they have release the GTR with a race / road use option then you'd have an argument...

The P1GTR a "race car"? In what series will it be racing? It's no more of a race car than the Ferrari FXX things are race cars. You don't make a race car for the fun of it without an organised competition in which it is meant to be competitive both in the sporting and in the financial senses.

Slickhillsy said:

flemke said:

Having nailed our colours to McLaren's mast, when Mclaren seem to act in a Ferrari-like manner, we feel let down, even betrayed.

Really don't get the level of bitterness here? They are after all running a niche business and trying to get the balance of exclusivity vs. availability and sustainability. All manufactures are guilty of it and they certainly don't do it to say feck you to their fans and client base intentionally as you insinuate...
So would you rather them cut on quality & spec or roll a few more hundred (AMAZING) units out the door.

Jaguar with engine shift of XJ220
Ducati were supposed to make on 800 Desmosedici RR's yet 1500 rolled off the line - I bought in here, couldn't give a monkeys. Bikes residuals are bomb-proof, still exclusive (if you like that sort of thing) spec is stunning and it's mega to ride.

If they cannot make enough money whilst being forthright with their customers, I would prefer that they change their business model, or change their business.

You give examples in which a vehicle maker misled its clients. I don't know about the Ducati incident, but what Jaguar did was totally out of order, as history has shown us.

[flemke]

WCZ said:

Slickhillsy said:

Again - Really???

Hmmm Bonhams seems to have their facts wrong then...
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22722/lot/141/

and Autocar

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/first-drives/f...

yes, do you expect an auction listing to actually state this? and the autocar is a 'first drive' review, how could they possibly mention before it happened that Ferrari would build more cars than initially promised (as they did with the Enzo too)

There will never be anything written in an auction house's promotional literature that I would necessarily believe. They make used car dealers seem like paragons of virtue.

[cc8s]

Slickhillsy said:

flemke said:

The greater issue is that the P1 was marketed by McLaren as the best track-focused "normal" (as opposed to pure racing) car they were capable of making.

Is this still not the case. Cant ever remember seeing a GTR with a number plate on it...?

That's because they are only just getting made. Only around 10 cars have been delivered. Some GTRs have left the factory and have gone straight to being converted without having touched the track, barring the usual shakedown. I have no doubt that they will display plates shortly!

Slickhillsy said:

flemke said:

McLaren also made it clear that there would be no successor car to the P1 for the foreseeable future, roughly

and because of the above ^^ there's no reason why this is still not the case... Remeber the GTR is a race car, if they have release the GTR with a race / road use option then you'd have an argument...

The P1 GTR is a track car as per McLaren press launches and flemke's above discussions. The road conversion was announced by an external company before the testing was even completed on the P1 GTR. And it is going ahead.

Slickhillsy said:

flemke said:

Having nailed our colours to McLaren's mast, when Mclaren seem to act in a Ferrari-like manner, we feel let down, even betrayed.

Really don't get the level of bitterness here? They are after all running a niche business and trying to get the balance of exclusivity vs. availability and sustainability. All manufactures are guilty of it and they certainly don't do it to say feck you to their fans and client base intentionally as you insinuate...
So would you rather them cut on quality & spec or roll a few more hundred (AMAZING) units out the door.

I have to say that I have agree with your sentiment to an extent. I feel that the vast majority of bad feeling towards McLaren is stirred up by people speaking on fourms and not facts.

People bought the 12C, then the Spider was announced within what was a reasonable timeframe, comparing it to Ferrari and Lamborghini. There was annoyance over this, which I feel is misplaced. A Spider is pretty much guaranteed for a 'normal' supercar.

Then the 650s came out as a facelift: Spider and Coupe were launched similtaneaously. Now this is the car I can understand the most annoyance at as, if you look at it with Ferrari eyes we would say that it was a mid-life facelift, which Ferrari didn't do with the 355, 360, 430, and 458. But Lamborghini did with the Gallardo and LP560.

I am slightly frustrated with the annoyance over the 675LT coupe/spider debacle. There has been no official confirmation from anyone and therefore all the chatter is just chatter at this point. I imagine feelings will vary widely whether 500 Spiders were to be made, or 50. Also, will it be a 675 or will it be the 700 GTR LN LM Spider? Does that make a difference?

Lastly, I think some of the feeling is to do with Ferrari-level expectations on value retention on a non-Ferrari product.

[cc8s]

It appears that we were writing at the same time.

[flemke]

cc8s said:

I have to say that I have agree with your sentiment to an extent. I feel that the vast majority of bad feeling towards McLaren is stirred up by people speaking on fourms and not facts.

People bought the 12C, then the Spider was announced within what was a reasonable timeframe, comparing it to Ferrari and Lamborghini. There was annoyance over this, which I feel is misplaced. A Spider is pretty much guaranteed for a 'normal' supercar.

Then the 650s came out as a facelift: Spider and Coupe were launched similtaneaously. Now this is the car I can understand the most annoyance at as, if you look at it with Ferrari eyes we would say that it was a mid-life facelift, which Ferrari didn't do with the 355, 360, 430, and 458. But Lamborghini did with the Gallardo and LP560.

I am slightly frustrated with the annoyance over the 675LT coupe/spider debacle. There has been no official confirmation from anyone and therefore all the chatter is just chatter at this point. I imagine feelings will vary widely whether 500 Spiders were to be made, or 50. Also, will it be a 675 or will it be the 700 GTR LN LM Spider? Does that make a difference?

Lastly, I think some of the feeling is to do with Ferrari-level expectations on value retention on a non-Ferrari product.

I think the difference between a 12C or 650S spider and a 675 spider is that the base cars of the first two were not marketed or priced as limited build-run cars.

Whenever we buy a technology-based product, we know that the maker (not to mention the competition) will in time produce a new version that will supersede what we have just bought. That's the way of the world.

It is rankling, however, when the very maker whom we have just patronised with our custom makes a superseding version of what we have just bought before we have even taken delivery of what we have just bought. This is especially aggravated when the maker had led us to believe specifically that it would do no such thing.

[flemke]

cc8s said:

It appears that we were writing at the same time.

Great minds....

[footsoldier]

I have little doubt that there will be 500, 675LT spiders, as I was with my friend when he paid the deposit, with a MacLaren dealer, with those specific assurances, within the last 10 days.

The P1 GTR is not a road car for two reasons:
1) to not too blatantly supersede the normal P1 in the way Flemke describes (ie as the best road going car they can produce)
2) because they can make a load of extra money by selling the "race prep programme" that goes with it.

The existing P1 is not road legal in racetrack mode, and the new GTR can be made road legal without much fuss so it's a pretty fine line, and I wouldn't be happy to have backed them and shelled out cash for 'the best" only to find out it wasn't.

Not to mention the XPs which are being offered to people who didn't back the project originally, and who will have end of line fully developed specials with a bit of history, to the detriment of those who financed the project. Wouldn't like that either.

Bottom line is that if Flemke and others are unhappy they are right - because it's a subjective, personal view and they're the ones who have it! Can't be good for MCL to have such long term customers who aren't impressed.

I would still like a P1 at some point in the future, (preferably now an XP...), but can see why some owners are unhappy, esp 675LTC buyers, just as I would be if Porsche suddenly announced another 918 fixed head cars.

[isaldiri]

cc8s said:

People bought the 12C, then the Spider was announced within what was a reasonable timeframe, comparing it to Ferrari and Lamborghini. There was annoyance over this, which I feel is misplaced. A Spider is pretty much guaranteed for a 'normal' supercar.

Then the 650s came out as a facelift: Spider and Coupe were launched similtaneaously. Now this is the car I can understand the most annoyance at as, if you look at it with Ferrari eyes we would say that it was a mid-life facelift, which Ferrari didn't do with the 355, 360, 430, and 458. But Lamborghini did with the Gallardo and LP560.

The first bit is incorrect. It was always made clear a spider variant of the 12c would follow at some point whether a year or 2.

The 650 however was a bit different. Most 12c buyers (or at least I certainly) did not expect at less than 3 years into 12c production run since cars started being delivered (nevermind delivered without early issues) for the 12c not to be de facto killed off with a very different look in a facelift and for Mclaren to go round essentially thrashing the 12c by saying the 650 was the car they had always wanted to build...

[Russell996]

isaldiri said:

https://www.ferraris-online.com/pages/article.php?...

Sorry to go off topic but...

Factually incorrect report. A few quick searches on the F-register which was the supposed source for the figures quoted shows many flaws in the data - US figures seem to be relied upon (28% of Ferrari production on average) but the ROW at 72% is largely ignored. The figures are there for anyone to check.

[Slickhillsy]

cc8s said:

Slickhillsy said:

isaldiri said:

Yes really....Exactly how is a speciale or scuderia a limited production car when even Ferrari never specified how many they were going to limit production to when they were busy churning out as many as they could at the end of the 430/458 production run?

as for the 16M numbers - some light reading if you are interested...

https://www.ferraris-online.com/pages/article.php?...

Depends on your definition of 'limited'.
A. Output specifically numbered aka 499 16M's and 458 Aperta's
B. Limited in comparison to the base model aka Scuderia & Speciale

I would say that is the difference between 'limited edition' and 'sepcial edition'.

https://youtu.be/gb_qHP7VaZE

[Slickhillsy]

flemke said:

Slickhillsy said:

flemke said:

The greater issue is that the P1 was marketed by McLaren as the best track-focused "normal" (as opposed to pure racing) car they were capable of making.

Is this still not the case. Cant ever remember seeing a GTR with a number plate on it...?

Is this like a black swan - if you have not personally seen one, they must not exist?

They definitely do exist. See for example Autocar from 6 months ago:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/road-le...

The P1GTR a "race car"? In what series will it be racing? It's no more of a race car than the Ferrari FXX things are race cars.

Thing is these GTRs that are road registered are not from the factory. No doubt would have Warreny issues as knowing how anal Macca are they won't be happy. Not the first time it's been done, see the FXX.

To your point I did wonder to myself when the released the P1, if they can make the GTR surely that means the road car could have been better...

However, (and to your co ment - I know I said race car but yes tis a track car) I can see the business opportunity. understanding they had a plan for a one make series track car they couldn't possibly leave nothing on the table (iin performance terms) with the P1.

Been the same right through history with another manufacturer.
- 288 GTO vs 288 GTO competizione
- F40 vs F40 LM
- F50 vs F50 GT
- Enzo vs FXX

This glass celing for 'ultimate' road cars has been around for years am afraid...

[cc8s]

flemke said:

I think the difference between a 12C or 650S spider and a 675 spider is that the base cars of the first two were not marketed or priced as limited build-run cars.

Whenever we buy a technology-based product, we know that the maker (not to mention the competition) will in time produce a new version that will supersede what we have just bought. That's the way of the world.

It is rankling, however, when the very maker whom we have just patronised with our custom makes a superseding version of what we have just bought before we have even taken delivery of what we have just bought. This is especially aggravated when the maker had led us to believe specifically that it would do no such thing.

I take the point on 'limited production'.

They also did say it would be coupe only (I hold the opinion that a hard-core car should be coupe only, but that is personal thoughts, and not based in a theory as such!).

They never, however, said it would be the 'ultimate' or 'last' iteration of the P11 platform (although I must say, I assumed it was). The Can-Am rams that point home.

I see their only solution for a Spider would be issuing it with more/less BHP and name it something different. But even this will leave a bad taste for some.

Slickhillsy said:

cc8s said:

Slickhillsy said:

isaldiri said:

Yes really....Exactly how is a speciale or scuderia a limited production car when even Ferrari never specified how many they were going to limit production to when they were busy churning out as many as they could at the end of the 430/458 production run?

as for the 16M numbers - some light reading if you are interested...

https://www.ferraris-online.com/pages/article.php?...

Depends on your definition of 'limited'.
A. Output specifically numbered aka 499 16M's and 458 Aperta's
B. Limited in comparison to the base model aka Scuderia & Speciale

I would say that is the difference between 'limited edition' and 'sepcial edition'.

https://youtu.be/gb_qHP7VaZE

It is obviously the Judean Peoples' Front

I genuinely don't get why people don't use the two phrases to differentiate more often. I have seen so many arguments on PH that would be largely sorted by using these two rather that just 'limited edition'.

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

flemke said:

Not only that, but more recently they have resurrected 5 (I think it is) of their prototype or press chassis, have totally refurbished those cars, and have sold them to customers, which action has enlarged even the build run of "normal" P1s from 375 to 380.

I heard more.

akin to :

isaldiri said:

I am led to believe that Mclaren has also agreed to sell the 10 or so XP 675 cars like for the XP P1s (10-15XP P1s i had been told).

More info here:
http://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/mclaren-p1-f1/36...