675LT?

[flemke]

Slickhillsy said:

Thing is these GTRs that are road registered are not from the factory. No doubt would have Warreny issues as knowing how anal Macca are they won't be happy. Not the first time it's been done, see the FXX.

To your point I did wonder to myself when the released the P1, if they can make the GTR surely that means the road car could have been better...

However, (and to your co ment - I know I said race car but yes tis a track car) I can see the business opportunity. understanding they had a plan for a one make series track car they couldn't possibly leave nothing on the table (iin performance terms) with the P1.

Been the same right through history with another manufacturer.
- 288 GTO vs 288 GTO competizione
- F40 vs F40 LM
- F50 vs F50 GT
- Enzo vs FXX

This glass celing for 'ultimate' road cars has been around for years am afraid...

I appreciate that it was in McLaren Automotive's short-term financial interests to do the GTR. I don't think that it was in the interests of many P1 owners, however.


Wrt what Ferrari have done over the years, I do not think of them as setting an example of best practice for others to follow.
As I understand it, the 288 was made for the specific purpose of homologating a Group B car. Therefore it could not have been a surprise when the factory made a true racing version of it. I would guess that the road and racing cars were announced simultaneously.

We could look at McLaren and the F1/F1GTR situation, where the road car was sufficiently different from a racing car that the racing car enhanced the reputation of the road car.

The problem with the P1/P1GTR is that, unlike with the 288 or F1 or 959, there is not enough daylight between the P1 and the P1GTR for true differentiation.

The P1's primary purpose was to be the fastest "road car" around a circuit, not for true racing but for track days.
The P1GTR's primary purpose was to be the fastest car (based on a road car) around a circuit, not for true racing but for track days.
The P1GTR was not made by the factory to be road legal, but it was close enough to being road legal that an independent shop with limited resources was in no time able to make the cars road legal.

If McLaren had simply announced at the time that they launched the P1 that they were doing the GTR - transparency - or, alternatively, if they had made the GTR a true racing car in the same sense that the 12C GT3 and 650S GT3 are true racing cars competing in real racing series - no conflict between road and non-road models - I would have no objection.

Unfortunately, they did neither. Having made that mistake with the P1, they appear to have compounded it with the 675.

[mb1]

Isn't it the case that you have to have a P1 to purchase a P1 GTR ?
Ferrari does the XX on a few of their cars and I was not surprised to see the GTR come out.
I do not think that there is any issues with the P1 / P1 GTR and I would not be crossed if I was a P1 owner.
And I would prefer a usable P1 to a track focussed P1 GTR.

The 675LT is a different story. The list price reflect the limited number. It is too similar to a 4-year old 12C to warrant a three times price tag if not trully limited. And when I was contacted the sale pitch was vey clear: sir, this is a unique opportunity to purchase a very limited long tail variant of the super series, the last iteration before the next model, and the opportunity will not present itself again...

If I had chosen or managed to be on the list as I wanted at some point, I would be thoroughly pissed off... To the point of cancelling my order.

McLaren limited edition models seem to sell well on launch day but do not seem to achieve the same success second hand. Look at how long the Le Mans 650's spend on the classified without any buyers. The reality is that they are desirable when bought from new.

I do not see the LT keeping their value as well as the McLaren dealers are arguing they will. Especially when the new super series is out with more power and a further developed styling from the half baked current super series design.

[isaldiri]

mb1 said:

Isn't it the case that you have to have a P1 to purchase a P1 GTR ?

Don't believe that to be the case anymore (can't 100% gtee that but last I was hearing). Originally that was the case having to be a P1 owner plus the full works with the circuit/training programme which accounted for a decent chunk of the huge premium of the P1 GTR over the P1 but now if I am not wrong they have opened that restriction up and have sold a fair few more than the number originally being bandied (20-25 from memory).

[dang2407]

My issue with McLaren is their policy to produce a new model every year. This has to devalue the current ones, surely? Would you be happy buying a 675LT now, knowing that in a year, it could be improved/replaced? And then it doesn't do much for the 2nd hand values either.

[mb1]

isaldiri said:

Don't believe that to be the case anymore (can't 100% gtee that but last I was hearing). Originally that was the case having to be a P1 owner plus the full works with the circuit/training programme which accounted for a decent chunk of the huge premium of the P1 GTR over the P1 but now if I am not wrong they have opened that restriction up and have sold a fair few more than the number originally being bandied (20-25 from memory).

If that is the case, then it does not sound very smart from McLaren. It might make some revenue now but will hurt later.

Even Pagani, who have pushed the boat quite far with limited editions, did not make six cinque !

[AyBee]

dang2407 said:

My issue with McLaren is their policy to produce a new model every year. This has to devalue the current ones, surely? Would you be happy buying a 675LT now, knowing that in a year, it could be improved/replaced? And then it doesn't do much for the 2nd hand values either.

If the 675LT is the CS, Scuderia, Speciale of the McLaren range, then I think it's unlikely it'll be replaced next year. The 650S will be replaced before the 675LT is.

[TP321]

AyBee said:

If the 675LT is the CS, Scuderia, Speciale of the McLaren range, then I think it's unlikely it'll be replaced next year. The 650S will be replaced before the 675LT is.

Yes but the 650s replacement will be much better looking, more powerful (700bhp) and faster than the 675lt

[AyBee]

TP321 said:

AyBee said:

If the 675LT is the CS, Scuderia, Speciale of the McLaren range, then I think it's unlikely it'll be replaced next year. The 650S will be replaced before the 675LT is.

Yes but the 650s replacement will be much better looking, more powerful (700bhp) and faster than the 675lt

And how may Ferrari models are quicker and better looking than the CS and the Scuderia? Doesn't stop them being special and commanding a premium...

[flemke]

As PH is owned by the same people who own Autocar, it is surprising that this article has apparently not been referenced or linked yet:

Autocar website said:

McLaren 675LT Spider under consideration for 2016 launch

If it's given the green light, McLaren's latest open-top supercar should arrive in 2016 with a price tag of around £280,000

by Darren Moss
12 October 2015

A McLaren 675LT Spider is being considered for production in 2016, a company spokesman has confirmed to Autocar.

While no decision has been made as to whether the project will get the go-ahead, if it's made the car is likely to receive a hard-top folding roof akin to McLaren's other convertible models and should weigh only slightly more than the regular car - which has a kerb weight of 1320kg....

It is understood that if the 675LT Spider does get the green light for production, it will be launched next year. More McLaren models will soon follow, including the 570S 'GT' variant due next year, the 570S Spider planned for 2017 and the replacement for the current 650S, which is currently scheduled for 2018....

Full article:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/mclaren...

To me, "being considered for production" means

- if the 675 coupes are trading for overs, they will make a spider,
- if they are not selling enough 540s and 570s and thus have unused capacity, they will make a spider,
- if they really need funding, they will make a spider.

In other words, if it suits them, they're going to make a spider.

[mb1]

flemke said:

"being considered for production"

Given open discussions with Dealers, it means "we will do it, we are trying to manage your expectations while we kind of help you swallow that one despite what we promised"

[footsoldier]

I think it's going to suit them, as they're taking deposits...

[anonymous-user]

I was up at MTC this morning and asked about the 675 Spider because of this thread. The answer I got, when i said that it would upset people with 675 orders, was that existing 675 purchasers would be offered the Spider.

Make of that what you will.

[DeltaOne]

garyhun said:

I was up at MTC this morning and asked about the 675 Spider because of this thread. The answer I got, when i said that it would upset people with 675 orders, was that existing 675 purchasers would be offered the Spider.

Make of that what you will.

Seems to demonstrate that these people don't really get what the issue is. It's NOT that coupe owners are desperate to get their names on the list for the Spider, it's that there will be one thousand 675's in existence, which makes it a distinctly different proposition to the previous pitch which was given to coupe buyers, which went something along the lines of "its a limited run of only 500". To me it therefore means that they're naive, arrogant, or stupid (tick all that apply).

[TP321]

AyBee said:

And how may Ferrari models are quicker and better looking than the CS and the Scuderia? Doesn't stop them being special and commanding a premium...

McLaren doesn't have the collectability of Ferrari. If it did, early 12C would be selling for £150k now and not £110k. The only reason why the 675lt sold out was because they said it was limited to 500 units. Now that they are building a spider as well, many coupe owners have cancelled. You don't buy a McLaren for residuals...

[flemke]

mb1 said:

flemke said:

"being considered for production"

Given open discussions with Dealers, it means "we will do it, we are trying to manage your expectations while we kind of help you swallow that one despite what we promised"

Yep, that seems to sum up the situation pretty well.

[flemke]

DeltaOne said:

garyhun said:

I was up at MTC this morning and asked about the 675 Spider because of this thread. The answer I got, when i said that it would upset people with 675 orders, was that existing 675 purchasers would be offered the Spider.

Make of that what you will.

Seems to demonstrate that these people don't really get what the issue is. It's NOT that coupe owners are desperate to get their names on the list for the Spider, it's that there will be one thousand 675's in existence, which makes it a distinctly different proposition to the previous pitch which was given to coupe buyers, which went something along the lines of "its a limited run of only 500". To me it therefore means that they're naive, arrogant, or stupid (tick all that apply).

[gunner]

100% agree

[Jappo]

isaldiri said:

To be fair to Mclaren, afaik, at least in northern Europe and UK, all or almost all 675 depositors have been offered the chance to switch to the the spider. Woking it seems belatedly had realised they at minimum had to do offer that and had instructed dealers to make enquiries about the switch.

Edited by isaldiri on Monday 12th October 22:22

Not me

[NickOrangeTVR]

flemke said:

Full article:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/mclaren...

To me, "being considered for production" means

- if the 675 coupes are trading for overs, they will make a spider,
- if they are not selling enough 540s and 570s and thus have unused capacity, they will make a spider,
- if they really need funding, they will make a spider.

In other words, if it suits them, they're going to make a spider.

I just told my dealer if this goes ahead then I don't want the car, exclusivity suddenly out the window, they just can't help themselves.

[SydneyBridge]

Straw poll- for those getting one and for those who are not

given the choice, would anyone actually prefer a spider over a coupe?

if you could have a spider but not a couple, would you?