Discussion
El Guapo said:
I have the solution - they could put 670S badges on the spiders.
This is exactly the problem - if we are talking about the letter of the law, rather than the spirit of the statements, it's easy for the manufacturer to get aroundYou simply give the car a different name and a very marginally different specification - 5bhp difference, slightly differently styled aero, etc
But you do still risk upsetting people. How much you upset people depends to an extent, on how the used prices hold up. If 675LT is a brilliant investment, which I suspect it may well be, owners in relative terms will be less upset about the 'broken promise' than if it depreciates.
jonby said:
If 675LT is a brilliant investment, which I suspect it may well be, owners in relative terms will be less upset about the 'broken promise' than if it depreciates.
Thing is... it WILL depreciate! All the (non hyper car) specials do (save for GT3 RS). Look at the CS / Scud / Speciale when they were released, same ethos and they all dropped in price, only now the older versions are appreciating. These specials then serve as the base for the new model, which in turn is 'generally' better than the outgoing special putting further pressure on the prices.No denying though - 675 will be epic, I'd have one in a shot and not give a monkeys on residuals or exclusivity - it's just an epic car...
Edited by Slickhillsy on Friday 16th October 12:19
Slickhillsy said:
Thing is... it WILL depreciate! All the (non hyper car) specials do (save for GT3 RS). Look at the CS / Scud / Speciale when they were released, same ethos and they all dropped in price, only now the older versions are appreciating. These specials then serve as the base for the new model, which in turn is 'generally' better than the outgoing special putting further pressure on the prices.
No denying though - 675 will be epic, I'd have one in a shot and not give a monkeys on residuals or exclusivity - it's just an epic car...
I agree 675LT is epic but with 650S being so good itself is the 675LT £100k better. 500 in Ferrari numbers isn't a lot as demand is probably 5 times greater than McLaren but 500 LT's versus 2,500 regular 650S is actually quite big numbers and no where near as limited as say scuderia or CS in real terms.No denying though - 675 will be epic, I'd have one in a shot and not give a monkeys on residuals or exclusivity - it's just an epic car...
Edited by Slickhillsy on Friday 16th October 12:19
If the 500 increases to 1,000 with spiders I would argue the term "limited" seems to be more a play on words
Not sure you can talk about what number qualifies as 'limited' at these levels
Gt3s and RS models are limited but in bigger numbers than 500, the numbers are never known until after the model has fully sold and they still sell at a premium
By contrast , my car is a v12 vantage roadster, limited to 101, but is worth much less than I paid for it
Along with some others, I got a guarantee from the factory they wouldn't produce more. They tried entering a few more to the market by selling the demonstrators that weren't numbered before the numbered run had all been sold/made - we ended up pushing the factory and they had to include them in the 101 limit, because of our guarantee
The 500 did seem high for 675lt at first, but as they all sold out, it no longer does - I think it qualifies as limited if they sell out before they are even road tested
Gt3s and RS models are limited but in bigger numbers than 500, the numbers are never known until after the model has fully sold and they still sell at a premium
By contrast , my car is a v12 vantage roadster, limited to 101, but is worth much less than I paid for it
Along with some others, I got a guarantee from the factory they wouldn't produce more. They tried entering a few more to the market by selling the demonstrators that weren't numbered before the numbered run had all been sold/made - we ended up pushing the factory and they had to include them in the 101 limit, because of our guarantee
The 500 did seem high for 675lt at first, but as they all sold out, it no longer does - I think it qualifies as limited if they sell out before they are even road tested
TP321 said:
flemke said:
The absurdity of the situation is that, having broken their commitment to make "only 500" 675s, if they were to make fewer than 500 spiders, the spider would then be rarer than the coupe and, other things being equal, trade at a higher premium or lower discount than the coupe would. Ridiculous and unacceptable. 
What they should do - if they are going to build a spider, which they should not do - is to build 500 spiders but reduce the number of coupes to only original group of 500 coupe buyers less the number of original coupe buyers who want to switch to spider.
That way they would end up making 500 spiders and maybe 300 coupes. McLaren would get their illegitimate expanded build-run, the "customer demand" for spiders would be satisfied, and the original coupe buyers would not get screwed by the overall numbers.
Blah blah, blah.....What they should do - if they are going to build a spider, which they should not do - is to build 500 spiders but reduce the number of coupes to only original group of 500 coupe buyers less the number of original coupe buyers who want to switch to spider.
That way they would end up making 500 spiders and maybe 300 coupes. McLaren would get their illegitimate expanded build-run, the "customer demand" for spiders would be satisfied, and the original coupe buyers would not get screwed by the overall numbers.
I wish people would stop complaining.....let them build loads of coupes and spiders, so that those of us less well off can buy one at a discount ( hehe). I think a spider for £200k would be just perfect!
jonby said:
By contrast , my car is a v12 vantage roadster, limited to 101, but is worth much less than I paid for it
Are you sure? Ive seen some of the V12 vantage Roadsters come up for sale - all have been £140k plus? Or is that still less than you paid? (admittedly thats retail price not trade price) mattf93 said:
jonby said:
By contrast , my car is a v12 vantage roadster, limited to 101, but is worth much less than I paid for it
Are you sure? Ive seen some of the V12 vantage Roadsters come up for sale - all have been £140k plus? Or is that still less than you paid? (admittedly thats retail price not trade price) Mine was £168.5 from the factory, although about £2k of that was luggage. By the time you add in detailing, paint protection, exhaust and a few minor bits it ended up costing me £175k. But £166k is probably the appropriate figure to use as the cost price for depreciation purposes
Slickhillsy said:
flemke said:
...and instead build enough cars to meet the demand
By increasing output is this not exactly what they are doing?I would have no complaint if they had said from the beginning that this was going to be an open build-run, and, importantly, if they had priced the cars consistent with an open build-run.
dang2407 said:
McLaren Group is in trouble financially (F1 sponsor, investment in production line etc). They will do whatever they can to get out of the red. Simples.
- Investment in production line was totally known in advance, no excuse.- Racing team and road car businesses are financially separate companies. I am not aware that road car customers had agreed to subsidise the racing team. On the car order form, there is no box labeled, "Tick box if you would like to make a £25,000 donation to McLaren-Honda Racing."
- Regardless of what shape they are in financially (and you may recall recent interviews with Ron and other senior execs in which they spoke of the commercial success of the road car company ("On plan"; "Ahead of plan"...), there is no excuse in any commercial activity for lying to customers or breaking commitments made to them.
Indeed, by acting as they have done, McLaren may have opened themselves up to civil action, and don't be surprised if there is some.
flemke said:
Slickhillsy said:
flemke said:
...and instead build enough cars to meet the demand
By increasing output is this not exactly what they are doing?I would have no complaint if they had said from the beginning that this was going to be an open build-run, and, importantly, if they had priced the cars consistent with an open build-run.
Just remind yourself what you're buying in to, if the money side of things ends up in your favour then happy days you've done well. If not, press on and enjoy the car!
One thing Macca do better than Ferrari - launch videos... Just a great looking car, if you have one on order good luck and enjoy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCg57KSGMyA
flemke said:
dang2407 said:
McLaren Group is in trouble financially (F1 sponsor, investment in production line etc). They will do whatever they can to get out of the red. Simples.
- Investment in production line was totally known in advance, no excuse.- Racing team and road car businesses are financially separate companies. I am not aware that road car customers had agreed to subsidise the racing team. On the car order form, there is no box labeled, "Tick box if you would like to make a £25,000 donation to McLaren-Honda Racing."
- Regardless of what shape they are in financially (and you may recall recent interviews with Ron and other senior execs in which they spoke of the commercial success of the road car company ("On plan"; "Ahead of plan"...), there is no excuse in any commercial activity for lying to customers or breaking commitments made to them.
Indeed, by acting as they have done, McLaren may have opened themselves up to civil action, and don't be surprised if there is some.
But if you are talking legal routes, it all comes down to wording of the contract / guarantee
Was it for instance 500. 675lt coupes, or 500 675 lt full stop
Or was it for 500 675bhp cars in that 'spec'
Or is the potential civil action based on a confirmation no roadster version would be made at all ? If so, by who - dealer level or factory?
If the spyder has marginally less (or more) power and carries a different name, or is stated to be slightly less hardcore in suspension and aero, is that sufficient to get out of legal action on the basis it's not a 675lt spyder but for example, a 670 Le spyder
I doubt, but you will be able to clarify this, that mclaren would on a legal basis be in trouble on this one. That's completely separate to whether they create so much badwill by breaking the spirit of their promises, that they suffer in the medium term, although I doubt those ramifications will be huge in the scheme of things
jonby said:
that mclaren would on a legal basis be in trouble on this one. That's completely separate to whether they create so much badwill by breaking the spirit of their promises, that they suffer in the medium term, although I doubt those ramifications will be huge in the scheme of things
Agreed with that. Mclaren have shown a surprising ability to generate illwill with existing customers, which one would assume they would have tried not to do as per most other businesses trying to sell things... but I would be very surprised if going to legal route would yield anything concrete.Slickhillsy said:
But its not an open build run... They just increased the number of units to x <end>. Really you're bothered by the fact that it's no longer exclusive and I think you just need to re-evaluate expectations. Even at much higher price points manufactures can, do and will change their mind - look at how many 'last edition' Zonda's there were. Lambo are notorious for special performante stradale superlegg... runs. Aston Martin / Maserati even BMW throwing their 'M' badge all over the place.
Just remind yourself what you're buying in to, if the money side of things ends up in your favour then happy days you've done well. If not, press on and enjoy the car!
One thing Macca do better than Ferrari - launch videos... Just a great looking car, if you have one on order good luck and enjoy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCg57KSGMyA
Actually, we don't know that it isn't going to be an open build-run, do we?Just remind yourself what you're buying in to, if the money side of things ends up in your favour then happy days you've done well. If not, press on and enjoy the car!
One thing Macca do better than Ferrari - launch videos... Just a great looking car, if you have one on order good luck and enjoy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCg57KSGMyA
Even if it is "limited", if it is limited to what is in effect the total world demand, that is the same thing as "open". The VW Beetle was ultimately limited to a finite production number.
If other car companies "do change their minds", that is not a justification for doing so. Some people steal, some people scam, some people defraud - not a justification for knowing, volitional dishonest behaviour.
As I wrote a few pages ago, many people including me patronise McLaren in preference to their direct competitor Ferrari because we expect(ed) McLaren to act more honourably than the Maranello people do. When McLaren stoop to Ferrari's level, even if McLaren have no self-respect to diminish, at least they squander the USP that is essential to their future success.
mattf93 said:
600 coupes, 600 roadsters or thats what I've been told... Im sure anjum will be able to clarify for us!
600 Coupes500 Roadsters
When I bought my Murci SV - they only sold 186 (I think) of the planned 350. Although it was launched. In the middle of the biggest economic meltdown in living memory
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