Discussion
GlynnsportRacing said:
I'm certainly no expert so would be grateful for those with more knowledge to comment. My observations are that so far the 650s has not been hit hard in the used market at all. I can only find 6 for sale & it seems to me that largely they're being offered at prices which pretty much reflect the new price less the vat - pretty normal for a car less than 12 months old?
Compare that with over 100 available 458's at prices which appear to me to have a lot higher percentage depreciation & it makes me feel the 650s is the more exclusive car & more likely to hold its value better, particularly as the press seem to praise it outside of the subjective "emotion" it may or may not evoke!
So far the 650S has not even been in production for a year. It had a retail price of around £245k with options for the Spyder. The problem that i foresee is that this new 570s will take an awful lot away from the 650s. Both cars look very similar and have similar proportions. However the 540c will start at £127k! And although for now the 540/570 will not have the aero or the fancy suspension of the 650s, i wouldn't put it past Mclaren to stick it on in 12 months time. And if the press really like the 540/570, then that will really make the 650s irrelevant - and it will follow the same depreciation curve as the 12c. The problem is however that there is a long way to go when a brand new 540C is listing at £127k. Compare that with over 100 available 458's at prices which appear to me to have a lot higher percentage depreciation & it makes me feel the 650s is the more exclusive car & more likely to hold its value better, particularly as the press seem to praise it outside of the subjective "emotion" it may or may not evoke!
TP321 said:
So far the 650S has not even been in production for a year. It had a retail price of around £245k with options for the Spyder. The problem that i foresee is that this new 570s will take an awful lot away from the 650s. Both cars look very similar and have similar proportions. However the 540c will start at £127k! And although for now the 540/570 will not have the aero or the fancy suspension of the 650s, i wouldn't put it past Mclaren to stick it on in 12 months time. And if the press really like the 540/570, then that will really make the 650s irrelevant - and it will follow the same depreciation curve as the 12c. The problem is however that there is a long way to go when a brand new 540C is listing at £127k.
OK, so let's think coupe not spider as the 570 spider is not coming out for another year yet. 650 coupe with options about £225k & 570 coupe with options about £175k so although I accept £50k isn't to be sneezed at, for that extra you're getting a whole level up on car, dynamics and performance. If you can afford it, I'd go for it & if you can't you were never in the 650s market anyway. Bigger decision to me then would be, do I buy a used 650s for a little more money than a new 570s? I think I would but that's where we're all different with our purchasing decisions. I think everyone accepts McLaren made a mistake releasing the MP4 12C how and when they did in 2011. As a result of the bad press and subsequent upgrades required residuals were undoubtedly effected very badly. Shame for early adoptors who paid full list with whom I do sympathise.
The car was properly sorted by 2013 and the spider launch but simply dropping the MP4 from the name wasn't going to make residuals jump up overnight so yes the MP4 12C / 12C was not without major issues/flaws in the way it was brought to market.
It was still an epic car with only 1 real criticism - "emotion"
650S is a totally different beast so people linking its depreciation curve to that of MP4 12C are incorrect. Its a lot more car - 25% new parts, better performance but hey not that that was needed, better looks with P1 front IMHO and the subjective "emotional" element definitely addressed with the way it feels and sounds as well as over £20k worth of extra standard equipement like carbon ceramic brakes.
The 650S is an even more awesome car than the 12C and was right first time. McLaren learned from the mistakes, addressed the criticism and really nailed it with the 650S.
Used cars have found a sensible level where they are generally selling very fast ( average of weeks not months ) which is phenominal for £200k + Supercar and availability is very limited.
In contrast there are 10 times as many 458's ridiculously highly priced eg £250k that are simply not even opening a door for months if not years
The market is talking and 650S is selling over 458 for sure. Now either 458 prices are going to come down or 650S prices are going to go up or at least remain where they are until the balance is changed.
With no 488 to sell I don't think Ferrari will want to reduce 458 margins so just watch 650S prices go up IMHO
Also with production numbers reducing further the relatively small number of 650S that will be on the market in the future will ensure prices remain high and at the same time as the McLaren brand continues to go from strength to strength demand will only go up.
This type of supply and demand equation can only mean one thing = strong residuals for an incredible car
I rest my case your honour and sit down comfortable that the 650S is a very astute purchase and a safe place to be going forward as well as the most epic car out there at this price range
The car was properly sorted by 2013 and the spider launch but simply dropping the MP4 from the name wasn't going to make residuals jump up overnight so yes the MP4 12C / 12C was not without major issues/flaws in the way it was brought to market.
It was still an epic car with only 1 real criticism - "emotion"
650S is a totally different beast so people linking its depreciation curve to that of MP4 12C are incorrect. Its a lot more car - 25% new parts, better performance but hey not that that was needed, better looks with P1 front IMHO and the subjective "emotional" element definitely addressed with the way it feels and sounds as well as over £20k worth of extra standard equipement like carbon ceramic brakes.
The 650S is an even more awesome car than the 12C and was right first time. McLaren learned from the mistakes, addressed the criticism and really nailed it with the 650S.
Used cars have found a sensible level where they are generally selling very fast ( average of weeks not months ) which is phenominal for £200k + Supercar and availability is very limited.
In contrast there are 10 times as many 458's ridiculously highly priced eg £250k that are simply not even opening a door for months if not years
The market is talking and 650S is selling over 458 for sure. Now either 458 prices are going to come down or 650S prices are going to go up or at least remain where they are until the balance is changed.
With no 488 to sell I don't think Ferrari will want to reduce 458 margins so just watch 650S prices go up IMHO
Also with production numbers reducing further the relatively small number of 650S that will be on the market in the future will ensure prices remain high and at the same time as the McLaren brand continues to go from strength to strength demand will only go up.
This type of supply and demand equation can only mean one thing = strong residuals for an incredible car
I rest my case your honour and sit down comfortable that the 650S is a very astute purchase and a safe place to be going forward as well as the most epic car out there at this price range
isaldiri said:
It's 40-45% of the value after 4 years. Outside of Ferrari mid engine V8s, that's not exactly out of line is it? Look at the SLS or other AMG mercs or Ferrari V12s for example. Compared against the 458 purely in terms of residuals, of course the 12c and now the 650 has got battered. However in any other metric, the 12c has done alright for a new car in the sector in my book. If residuals are your main criteria then Mclaren probably isn't going to be the car to get....
70k over 4 years? I'd be happy with that, I was expecting 20k per year. I got a considerable chunk off a new car to begin with and didn't bother speccing 25k of external carbon which loses half it's value when you leave the showroom and doesn't do anything for me anyway.And for the ninety squillionth time, new cars lose money, if you're filled with dread about depreciation you should really put your money somewhere else. I *love* my 650S, smile a mile.
tuffer said:
As above, whats the score with the 540, when is it available and how do people know it lists at £127K when it has not been released?
As you have probably seen mention in one or both of the articles on the main page, but agree unusual they have a £ price quoted if not for the uk marketBoth McLaren and Ferrari produce cracking cars. The 12C and the 458 are worthy competitors, the newer 650S has moved the game on, no doubt the 488 will attempt to do the same. I don't see either marque being overly dominant in this sector, and I suspect the Huracan has some tricks up its sleeve too.
If one is worried about what people think of one's car then one has too much money and not enough car to spend it on, or put another way: spend more (residuals considered) and buy the best car one can for oneself. Since there can be only one 'best', what other people think or how rare the car is, or any other spurious nonsense not related to driving it or appreciating its aesthetics/engineering, automatically becomes irrelevant.
If one is worried about what people think of one's car then one has too much money and not enough car to spend it on, or put another way: spend more (residuals considered) and buy the best car one can for oneself. Since there can be only one 'best', what other people think or how rare the car is, or any other spurious nonsense not related to driving it or appreciating its aesthetics/engineering, automatically becomes irrelevant.
Edited by boxerTen on Thursday 2nd April 23:16
boxerTen said:
If one is worried about what people think of one's car then one has too much money and not enough car to spend it on, or put another way: spend more (residuals considered) and buy the best car one can for oneself. Since there can be only one 'best', what other people think or how rare the car is, or any other spurious nonsense not related to driving it or appreciating its aesthetics/engineering, automatically becomes irrelevant.
This should be etched onto Salisbury Plain in letters 20 foot tall, captured with aerial photography and the pictures slapped into every post moaning about depreciation or attacking other peoples choice of car.
Went to Ascot Saturday . They had 6 brand new 650s unregistered cars for sale all between £245000 and £250000.
All beautiful cars but wow expensive sticker price.
570s has no aero or hydraulic suspension but is lighter and just about the same performance yet the list price is £145000 and 540 is £126000 so 12k of extras and there is nearly 100k difference.
I lost a packet on my 12c but McLaren seem to be clueless with their strategy - fabulous cars but that is not enough.
And yes depreciation does worry me and so it should everyone except the mega rich
All beautiful cars but wow expensive sticker price.
570s has no aero or hydraulic suspension but is lighter and just about the same performance yet the list price is £145000 and 540 is £126000 so 12k of extras and there is nearly 100k difference.
I lost a packet on my 12c but McLaren seem to be clueless with their strategy - fabulous cars but that is not enough.
And yes depreciation does worry me and so it should everyone except the mega rich
GRBF430F1 said:
I think everyone accepts McLaren made a mistake releasing the MP4 12C how and when they did in 2011. As a result of the bad press and subsequent upgrades required residuals were undoubtedly effected very badly. Shame for early adoptors who paid full list with whom I do sympathise.
The car was properly sorted by 2013 and the spider launch but simply dropping the MP4 from the name wasn't going to make residuals jump up overnight so yes the MP4 12C / 12C was not without major issues/flaws in the way it was brought to market.
It was still an epic car with only 1 real criticism - "emotion"
650S is a totally different beast so people linking its depreciation curve to that of MP4 12C are incorrect. Its a lot more car - 25% new parts, better performance but hey not that that was needed, better looks with P1 front IMHO and the subjective "emotional" element definitely addressed with the way it feels and sounds as well as over £20k worth of extra standard equipement like carbon ceramic brakes.
The 650S is an even more awesome car than the 12C and was right first time. McLaren learned from the mistakes, addressed the criticism and really nailed it with the 650S.
Used cars have found a sensible level where they are generally selling very fast ( average of weeks not months ) which is phenominal for £200k + Supercar and availability is very limited.
In contrast there are 10 times as many 458's ridiculously highly priced eg £250k that are simply not even opening a door for months if not years
The market is talking and 650S is selling over 458 for sure. Now either 458 prices are going to come down or 650S prices are going to go up or at least remain where they are until the balance is changed.
With no 488 to sell I don't think Ferrari will want to reduce 458 margins so just watch 650S prices go up IMHO
Also with production numbers reducing further the relatively small number of 650S that will be on the market in the future will ensure prices remain high and at the same time as the McLaren brand continues to go from strength to strength demand will only go up.
This type of supply and demand equation can only mean one thing = strong residuals for an incredible car
I rest my case your honour and sit down comfortable that the 650S is a very astute purchase and a safe place to be going forward as well as the most epic car out there at this price range
LOL Just had a look at your profile and notice you call yourself "THE STIG", made me chuckle when all you continuely bleat on about is mind numbing residuals, current pricing and market placement..yet not one single mention of the balls out, wind in your 'hair' experience of actually driving these cars and the raw emotions and reactions they evoke.The car was properly sorted by 2013 and the spider launch but simply dropping the MP4 from the name wasn't going to make residuals jump up overnight so yes the MP4 12C / 12C was not without major issues/flaws in the way it was brought to market.
It was still an epic car with only 1 real criticism - "emotion"
650S is a totally different beast so people linking its depreciation curve to that of MP4 12C are incorrect. Its a lot more car - 25% new parts, better performance but hey not that that was needed, better looks with P1 front IMHO and the subjective "emotional" element definitely addressed with the way it feels and sounds as well as over £20k worth of extra standard equipement like carbon ceramic brakes.
The 650S is an even more awesome car than the 12C and was right first time. McLaren learned from the mistakes, addressed the criticism and really nailed it with the 650S.
Used cars have found a sensible level where they are generally selling very fast ( average of weeks not months ) which is phenominal for £200k + Supercar and availability is very limited.
In contrast there are 10 times as many 458's ridiculously highly priced eg £250k that are simply not even opening a door for months if not years
The market is talking and 650S is selling over 458 for sure. Now either 458 prices are going to come down or 650S prices are going to go up or at least remain where they are until the balance is changed.
With no 488 to sell I don't think Ferrari will want to reduce 458 margins so just watch 650S prices go up IMHO
Also with production numbers reducing further the relatively small number of 650S that will be on the market in the future will ensure prices remain high and at the same time as the McLaren brand continues to go from strength to strength demand will only go up.
This type of supply and demand equation can only mean one thing = strong residuals for an incredible car
I rest my case your honour and sit down comfortable that the 650S is a very astute purchase and a safe place to be going forward as well as the most epic car out there at this price range
You sir are about as far from being 'The Stig' as I am from tea-bagging a blender.... IMHO.
boxerTen said:
Should McLaren have aimed a little lower in the market with the 540/570? If they dropped the turbos they'd have around 450-480 bhp and be in GT3 territory. Off the top of my head I can't think of any current mid-engined car between 400 bhp (Evora) and 530 bhp (new R8).
I think they should have. This car will probably kick the 650s in the arse - questionable marketing and product line up imop AND Ferrari seem to be saying they are entering exactly the same sector (also wont help 458 or 488 residuals imop) Trouble is manufacturers can produce cars much more cheaply with technology ,lean led manufacturing etc and have to adjust and grow their market share. Where that leaves exclusivity I haven't a clue. Porsche seem to have the answers though 991 GT3 GT3RS as current models appreciating beyond my wildest imagination.Great fun though isn't it.
Just do the opposite of me I always make the wrong decisions - sell too early
s2000db said:
Of course the biggest potential revelatation from the 570S, will be if it handles much better on its conventional suspension!!
That will really throw the cat amongst the pigeons, and I'd hate to be a 650S owner then!!
what a ridiculous statement. I hope it handles well and shakes up the 991 dominated segment. but I doubt many people would 'hate to be a 650S owner'. I am certain most on here would love to be just such an owner!That will really throw the cat amongst the pigeons, and I'd hate to be a 650S owner then!!
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