Dare I ask about the D word.......depreciation......
Discussion
Some early morning man maths.....it feels like buying a near new 650s, then selling it on after 3 years will cost about £50k..(plus maintenance etc) about £1350 a month of british goodness.....the same calculation for a late 458, comes out at about £850 a month ....about 60% the cost of the 650s
Personally I am happy to pay a premium to have a 650s over a 458 but perhaps not this much....
This assumes that the 650s will track the 12c values, and late 458 values track those of early cars e.g. a 2014 car in 3 years times will be worth what a 2011 car is today.
Personally I am happy to pay a premium to have a 650s over a 458 but perhaps not this much....
This assumes that the 650s will track the 12c values, and late 458 values track those of early cars e.g. a 2014 car in 3 years times will be worth what a 2011 car is today.
Wilmslowboy said:
Some early morning man maths.....it feels like buying a near new 650s, then selling it on after 3 years will cost about £50k..(plus maintenance etc) about £1350 a month of british goodness.....the same calculation for a late 458, comes out at about £850 a month ....about 60% the cost of the 650s
Personally I am happy to pay a premium to have a 650s over a 458 but perhaps not this much....
This assumes that the 650s will track the 12c values, and late 458 values track those of early cars e.g. a 2014 car in 3 years times will be worth what a 2011 car is today.
[b]Will 650S just track 12C values or will it do much better ? Personally I am happy to pay a premium to have a 650s over a 458 but perhaps not this much....
This assumes that the 650s will track the 12c values, and late 458 values track those of early cars e.g. a 2014 car in 3 years times will be worth what a 2011 car is today.
For starters it has £20k more standard kit on it inc ceramic brakes etc but secondly and far more important the press reviews were overwhelmingly good compared with early MP4 12C and its also far fewer in numbers.
McLaren cannot underestimate how much damage those early press reviews did to the car hence the catastrophic drop in values for early adoptors.
Eventually at the end of 12C production and following the 3 FOC upgrades the car became well sorted but McLaren really hit the nail on the head 1st time with the massive improvements to 650S which just takes the car to another level as an emotional experience.
I know looks are subjective but personally I think the P1 style front end also makes the car far more of a supercar in terms of looks.
I still think bought at the right price the 650S is the supercar bargain of the moment and will do really well on residual values in the medium to long term. Who knows it may start to track closer to Ferrari limited edition cars [/b]
Edited by RamboLambo on Saturday 12th September 20:10
Edited by RamboLambo on Saturday 12th September 20:11
Edited by RamboLambo on Saturday 12th September 20:12
I spent the afternoon at McLaren Ascot and mentioned this thread and more specifically the event on Tuesday to which I also received an invite. I mentioned some had expressed surprise at not being invited and was told, not surprisingly, that all are welcome. Thus this post 
as such if you're local or in the area feel free to pop in.
For clarity I am not in anyway affiliated to McLaren or McLaren Ascot
As to the depreciation question and contrary to some posters 'opinions' I think the brand value built up by Ferrari will always win against a newer competitor for a long time and as such it will never be a surprise that model for model they will most likely fare better. Only exclusivity and therefore waiting lists will affect that and whilst McLaren seek market share (understandable to afford building such great cars) they won't really be too exclusive.
Ps I bought one today
to back up my support anyway!
as such if you're local or in the area feel free to pop in.For clarity I am not in anyway affiliated to McLaren or McLaren Ascot
As to the depreciation question and contrary to some posters 'opinions' I think the brand value built up by Ferrari will always win against a newer competitor for a long time and as such it will never be a surprise that model for model they will most likely fare better. Only exclusivity and therefore waiting lists will affect that and whilst McLaren seek market share (understandable to afford building such great cars) they won't really be too exclusive.
Ps I bought one today
to back up my support anyway!RamboLambo said:
McLaren cannot underestimate how much damage those early press reviews did to the car hence the catastrophic drop in values for early adoptors.
IIRC, Autocar gave it 4½ stars and said that, whilst it was a touch behind the 458 overall (largely owing to meaningless crap such as engine note), in many respects it exceeded the 458 and for a first production line car by a manufacturer it was a deeply impressive result.
I thought the thing that really caused the initial Mclaren values "crash", was not bad reviews but lack of a secondary market.
Only a tiny handful of dealerships (3 in the UK) meant little competition for used car buying, (especially when the new cars became harder to sell) add in the launch of the 650, discounting on the last new 12Cs and the inevitable happened.
With a number of specialist now willing to buy/sell, a sound reputation for reliability (for a small volume supercar), strong demand for used cars...all means values have really firmed up (put a floor on second hand cars). Hence why used early Mclarens have pretty much held the same value for the past year.
Only a tiny handful of dealerships (3 in the UK) meant little competition for used car buying, (especially when the new cars became harder to sell) add in the launch of the 650, discounting on the last new 12Cs and the inevitable happened.
With a number of specialist now willing to buy/sell, a sound reputation for reliability (for a small volume supercar), strong demand for used cars...all means values have really firmed up (put a floor on second hand cars). Hence why used early Mclarens have pretty much held the same value for the past year.
Boshly said:
I spent the afternoon at McLaren Ascot.....
Ps I bought one today to back up my support anyway!
Before all of the ney-sayers arrive - welcome to the fold!Ps I bought one today
to back up my support anyway!In the 15 or so years I've brought and sold cars, I've only ever regretted selling - thinking I'd made a good profit on each purchase - think - 1963 & 1964 Mk 1Lotus Cortinas, AC Cobra, Merc 190 Evo II, 360CS, Exige S1 (x3), Sport 190, Gt3 RS's Etc......for once in my life, I've archived the pinnacle with a McLaren and I now am keeping!
duggan said:
Boshly said:
I spent the afternoon at McLaren Ascot.....
Ps I bought one today to back up my support anyway!
Before all of the ney-sayers arrive - welcome to the fold!Ps I bought one today
to back up my support anyway!As for the "naysayers" well its always a tough one. Those who've bought a McLaren have put their money where there mouth is and thus have a strong opinion. Those who haven't, well to be fair it's hard to enforce an 'I put my money where my mouth is' stance by not buying one and as such they will always have the harder battle.
Not sure that made any sense but we all have different opinions and thank God for variety and for companies like McLaren etc. who enable us to have those different choices.
Boshly said:
Ps I bought one today to back up my support anyway!
Top stuff Bosh, hope you enjoy it as much as I have! to back up my support anyway!Personally I cannot fathom the angst in this thread.
If your dream is a supercar and you are fortunate enough to be in the position to buy one then get it, drive it and love every minute. If you lie awake every night fretting over every farthing it may be losing and you count each mile you drive like a sheep jumping over a gate then you probably shouldn't have bothered.
I'm not the richest man in the world (maybe not even in my street) but I've bought some beautiful cars and enjoyed every minute of them, they lose money, lots of money, if I couldn't live with that I wouldn't have bought them.
I'll be dead soon enough anyway, as will we all, just enjoy the bloody things while you have the chance or sell them and put the money under your mattress so you can clutch it in the night when you wake up sweating over your wealth.
br d said:
Boshly said:
Ps I bought one today to back up my support anyway!
Top stuff Bosh, hope you enjoy it as much as I have! to back up my support anyway!Personally I cannot fathom the angst in this thread.
If your dream is a supercar and you are fortunate enough to be in the position to buy one then get it, drive it and love every minute. If you lie awake every night fretting over every farthing it may be losing and you count each mile you drive like a sheep jumping over a gate then you probably shouldn't have bothered.
I'm not the richest man in the world (maybe not even in my street) but I've bought some beautiful cars and enjoyed every minute of them, they lose money, lots of money, if I couldn't live with that I wouldn't have bought them.
I'll be dead soon enough anyway, as will we all, just enjoy the bloody things while you have the chance or sell them and put the money under your mattress so you can clutch it in the night when you wake up sweating over your wealth.
Just lost a good friend from the Morgan fraternity three days ago, my age, active, appeared in good health, just went. As you know I've had my own mortality enlightening experience also. It's worth more to me to enjoy my life whilst I can and not worry about whether I'll lose an 'extra' £10/20/30k over the next few years.
Great cars (both Marques) drive and enjoy!!
Boshly said:
br d said:
Boshly said:
Ps I bought one today to back up my support anyway!
Top stuff Bosh, hope you enjoy it as much as I have! to back up my support anyway!Personally I cannot fathom the angst in this thread.
If your dream is a supercar and you are fortunate enough to be in the position to buy one then get it, drive it and love every minute. If you lie awake every night fretting over every farthing it may be losing and you count each mile you drive like a sheep jumping over a gate then you probably shouldn't have bothered.
I'm not the richest man in the world (maybe not even in my street) but I've bought some beautiful cars and enjoyed every minute of them, they lose money, lots of money, if I couldn't live with that I wouldn't have bought them.
I'll be dead soon enough anyway, as will we all, just enjoy the bloody things while you have the chance or sell them and put the money under your mattress so you can clutch it in the night when you wake up sweating over your wealth.
Just lost a good friend from the Morgan fraternity three days ago, my age, active, appeared in good health, just went. As you know I've had my own mortality enlightening experience also. It's worth more to me to enjoy my life whilst I can and not worry about whether I'll lose an 'extra' £10/20/30k over the next few years.
Great cars (both Marques) drive and enjoy!!
br d said:
Boshly said:
Ps I bought one today to back up my support anyway!
Top stuff Bosh, hope you enjoy it as much as I have! to back up my support anyway!Personally I cannot fathom the angst in this thread.
If your dream is a supercar and you are fortunate enough to be in the position to buy one then get it, drive it and love every minute. If you lie awake every night fretting over every farthing it may be losing and you count each mile you drive like a sheep jumping over a gate then you probably shouldn't have bothered.
I'm not the richest man in the world (maybe not even in my street) but I've bought some beautiful cars and enjoyed every minute of them, they lose money, lots of money, if I couldn't live with that I wouldn't have bought them.
I'll be dead soon enough anyway, as will we all, just enjoy the bloody things while you have the chance or sell them and put the money under your mattress so you can clutch it in the night when you wake up sweating over your wealth.
For me, it's not depreciation per se. I know I'll lose money over the life of the car - that's the way it works. and I'm happy as that's the 'cost' of enjoyment.
What I hate the idea of is buying brand new and then not only seeing 'normal' depreciation but the additional depreciation on top that comes from discounting by the manufacturer after a settling down period of new car introduction.
I've asked a few times on this thread about the way some people are calculating the depreciation and is it based on the retail price or the discounted price. I've not had a reply to date
What I hate the idea of is buying brand new and then not only seeing 'normal' depreciation but the additional depreciation on top that comes from discounting by the manufacturer after a settling down period of new car introduction.
I've asked a few times on this thread about the way some people are calculating the depreciation and is it based on the retail price or the discounted price. I've not had a reply to date
garyhun said:
For me, it's not depreciation per se. I know I'll lose money over the life of the car - that's the way it works. and I'm happy as that's the 'cost' of enjoyment.
What I hate the idea of is buying brand new and then not only seeing 'normal' depreciation but the additional depreciation on top that comes from discounting by the manufacturer after a settling down period of new car introduction.
I've asked a few times on this thread about the way some people are calculating the depreciation and is it based on the retail price or the discounted price. I've not had a reply to date
Depreciation is what you actually paid for it minus what you would get now to sell it. List Price is effectively only a recommended retail price. List price is a bit immaterial unless that's what you paid.What I hate the idea of is buying brand new and then not only seeing 'normal' depreciation but the additional depreciation on top that comes from discounting by the manufacturer after a settling down period of new car introduction.
I've asked a few times on this thread about the way some people are calculating the depreciation and is it based on the retail price or the discounted price. I've not had a reply to date
Just like Sports Direct prices always being advertised with a RRP of £X but on sale to you today at 80% off. Everyone knows its not worth RRP and nor would they pay it. The 80% off sounds great but its still only worth what its worth
RamboLambo said:
Depreciation is what you actually paid for it minus what you would get now to sell it. List Price is effectively only a recommended retail price. List price is a bit immaterial unless that's what you paid.
Just like Sports Direct prices always being advertised with a RRP of £X but on sale to you today at 80% off. Everyone knows its not worth RRP and nor would they pay it. The 80% off sounds great but its still only worth what its worth
Absolutely. So when you earlier said the depreciation was based on the 'transaction' price, you meant the discounted price. No issue at all with that BUT it does mean I will not be paying list for my 540 which means I will delay my purchase until discounting starts. If everyone knows discounts are coming, many will delay, and thus we have a stalled market for a newly launched car.Just like Sports Direct prices always being advertised with a RRP of £X but on sale to you today at 80% off. Everyone knows its not worth RRP and nor would they pay it. The 80% off sounds great but its still only worth what its worth
It's just not clever in my eyes UNLESS discounts are available from the off. If that's the case then the retail price means absolutely nothing anyway. If McLaren want to look after their customers then they should be trying to bolster prices, not reduce them.
I'm guessing Ferrari do not do this?
garyhun said:
No issue at all with that BUT it does mean I will not be paying list for my 540 which means I will delay my purchase until discounting starts. If everyone knows discounts are coming, many will delay, and thus we have a stalled market for a newly launched car.
It's just not clever in my eyes UNLESS discounts are available from the off. If that's the case then the retail price means absolutely nothing anyway. If McLaren want to look after their customers then they should be trying to bolster prices, not reduce them.
Are you really going to delay to wait for discount? I'm actually suprised at how cheap it is to start with, and wondered why they placed it at such a low price point. Given theres very little else in the way of newish used 2 seater supercars at the £100k mark, the demand in the second-hand market will surely bolster the used prices?It's just not clever in my eyes UNLESS discounts are available from the off. If that's the case then the retail price means absolutely nothing anyway. If McLaren want to look after their customers then they should be trying to bolster prices, not reduce them.
kryten22uk said:
garyhun said:
No issue at all with that BUT it does mean I will not be paying list for my 540 which means I will delay my purchase until discounting starts. If everyone knows discounts are coming, many will delay, and thus we have a stalled market for a newly launched car.
It's just not clever in my eyes UNLESS discounts are available from the off. If that's the case then the retail price means absolutely nothing anyway. If McLaren want to look after their customers then they should be trying to bolster prices, not reduce them.
Are you really going to delay to wait for discount? I'm actually suprised at how cheap it is to start with, and wondered why they placed it at such a low price point. Given theres very little else in the way of newish used 2 seater supercars at the £100k mark, the demand in the second-hand market will surely bolster the used prices?It's just not clever in my eyes UNLESS discounts are available from the off. If that's the case then the retail price means absolutely nothing anyway. If McLaren want to look after their customers then they should be trying to bolster prices, not reduce them.
Life is too short - I was just interested in people's opinion and sometimes it's good to 'talk' these things through.garyhun said:
Of course I'm not Life is too short - I was just interested in people's opinion and sometimes it's good to 'talk' these things through.
I don't think a 540 will be heavily discounted in the near future so you are probably better to get in early. Demand will be strong I'm sure Life is too short - I was just interested in people's opinion and sometimes it's good to 'talk' these things through.The price is surprisingly competitive in the first place IMHO and there is no other new sports/supercar with the same status in that price range other than the closest maybe being an Audi R8 or Porsche 911 and I would have a McLaren over both of them all day long. To me the only other consideration would be a lightly used 650s that has already taken the depreciation hit
540/570s prices seem a real bargain to me and if you go in at the entry level with only the essential options the difference between list price and residual value ( depreciated ) after 3 years will be minimised.
Heavily optioned cars will take a far greater hit but a sensible specced car in 3 years time has got to be worth circa £100k and maybe more if things like 8 year old used f430's are still that sort of money
What is a sensible spec for a 540c? or even a 570s? It is remarkably easy to spend near to £20k on options especially if you go carbon crazy. However given that this thread has concentrated on used values and depreciation what is actually sensible and will ensure you get at least some of it back.
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