Dare I ask about the D word.......depreciation......

[TP321]

mb1 said:

Having said that, it will be interesting to see how the 540 and 570 hold their value over the next 3 years.

There is merit to think that the family of the 12C/650 and the new 540/570 will answer several parts of the market and individuals own criteria, which in effect should strengthen one another and contribute to cars holding their value pretty well. If not help the early 12C car finally realise their true value and potential due the under-estimated perceived value.

Wishful thinking...

The 540/575 only exist because Mclaren could not sell the 12c/650 at list of £190-240k. So it makes a slightly (very slightly) different car, and offers it at £130-160K, but hopes to sell more that it would have done so with the 12c/650s.

will it work? I don't know. The new R8 looks a very top class car for £137k with that Lambo engine, and you know that the Merc AMG GT will probably be offered on Contract Hire for £799 per month...hahaha.

Bottom Line: Tread very wisely when buying new from a brand that is not that well known.......remember the lessons from the 12C

[ferdi p]

TP321 said:

...haha

So someone who paid £185k new in 2012, done 24000 miles in it so far - is he WINNING?? How when his car is only worth £104k?

Ferrari owners (new and second hand ones) must be laughing their branded socks off..

I'm just not sure what your getting at!?

It costs more to own a 12C over a 458? That's correct...

I buy what I want not what holds the most value. The 12c is a better car & I for one am happy to pay more to own one

Mind you I've got a 488 coming next year so my loyalties are a little screwed!!

[davek_964]

Depreciation on new cars is pretty much a fact of life, with the odd exception of limited availability. The fact that McLaren depreciate faster than Ferrari from new doesn't necessarily answer the question of what hit you'd take buying a 3 year old 12C now.

Personally, I'm not convinced 540 / 570 prices are going to have a positive effect on 12C prices, so I suspect I'll be put off buying one until I see some hard evidence.

A £100k 12C looks tempting though!

[TISPKJ]

I think I am correct in saying list price on both cars was very similar.
on that basis without looking at every advert, 12c starts at 130, 458 140 so the 458 would appear to be the slightly better car in holding its value.

My point before was dont use the cheapest car ever advertised as a guide, especially a 25k mile one.
Your unlikely to see a 25k mile 458 to compare

[anonymous-user]

TP321 said:

Wishful thinking...

The 540/575 only exist because Mclaren could not sell the 12c/650 at list of £190-240k. So it makes a slightly (very slightly) different car, and offers it at £130-160K, but hopes to sell more that it would have done so with the 12c/650s.

will it work? I don't know. The new R8 looks a very top class car for £137k with that Lambo engine, and you know that the Merc AMG GT will probably be offered on Contract Hire for £799 per month...hahaha.

Bottom Line: Tread very wisely when buying new from a brand that is not that well known.......remember the lessons from the 12C

We know/suspect that Ferrari will be coming out with a new '`Dino' in the next 24 months. Would you say that's because they cannot sell enough 458 or that they have no confidence in the 488? Of course not.

The 650 will be replaced with the new P14 to sit alongside the 540/570 in the same way that the Dino will sit alongside the 488.

McLaren have always intended to have a 3 model lineup and that's what they will have.

I've ordered a 540. I've owned an R8 before and was close to ordering a Merc AMG GT but the truth is that as soon as McLaren announced the 570 I was in. A fantastic looking car from the company with race pedigree with those awesome dihedral doors. Supercar looks, and performance if what we hear is correct, for high end sportscar pricing.

What's not to like?

Life really is too short to give a stuff about how much it will be worth in the future - drive and enjoy whatever floats your boat!

[flemke]

TP321 said:

Wishful thinking...

The 540/575 only exist because Mclaren could not sell the 12c/650 at list of £190-240k. So it makes a slightly (very slightly) different car, and offers it at £130-160K, but hopes to sell more that it would have done so with the 12c/650s.

That's not correct.
From the beginning, long before the 12C was launched, a core part of the business plan was to offer a range of cars including one at the 430->458 price point and one at the 911 Turbo price point. The 12C/650 range has been and remains a success both technically and commercially.
To achieve the economies of scale necessary to sustain a quality brand and profitable business, McLaren Automotive appreciated from the outset that they would need a range sufficient to sell several thousand cars/year, and that for the foreseeable future they would not be able to do that with only a £200k+ model.

[RamboLambo]

If McLaren having been selling a vastly superior product in 12C/650s over 458 in smaller numbers and for less money then that suggests to me its either a loss leader or the prancing horse is fetching a hefty premium and you are paying through the nose for the brand not the product.
Personally I'd rather have the better product and stuff the brand to a certain degree.

Also from what I've experienced on a regular basis in the last 6 months is the perception of the average man in the street is that the McLaren is the more exclusive/expensive car.
My neighbours have been used to seeing a host of supercars but none has got the reaction that the 650s has.
Comments like "wow you have really gone big with this one and have you won the euro millions" are typical now.

Maybe Ferrari's and 458's are just too common and old hat now ? The new sheriff is in town !

[Nightmare]

RamboLambo said:

If McLaren having been selling a vastly superior product in 12C/650s over 458 in smaller numbers and for less money then that suggests to me its either a loss leader or the prancing horse is fetching a hefty premium and you are paying through the nose for the brand not the product.
Personally I'd rather have the better product and stuff the brand to a certain degree.

I own neither.....and having had both for a few days don't want either.....but the mclaren is, in my view, a MILES better road car than the 458. In every respect I can think of.

[squirejo]

If I may I think you only have to look at the number of recent new second hand 12C owners on this forum to see that they are finding homes in the lower-100's readily.. I am amongst them. I cannot think of a car that offers more for the money, including the carbon fibre tub. The 540/70 combo will be a different drive and lower technology point. Mclaren london guys said they can't get enuf 12Cs, that many originally UK supplied were exported until their dealer network grew, and finally that people enquiring about the new car were buying 12Cs. Apply a discount to that for sales patter if you will, it rings true.

My view: I am/ was quite exposed to Porsche. If a 996gt3 - a terrific drivers car- can be worth 80k, does that not make an MP12 in the low 100's look staggering value? I think so and have done so. And from behind the wheel I'd say I now know so.

I paid 133k for my car. The mileage is a little 'high' but the spec also high. Mileage can catch up, spec cannot. I bought a spider because- well why not. The best relative value is I believe a 2013 coupe.

[TP321]

squirejo said:

If I may I think you only have to look at the number of recent new second hand 12C owners on this forum to see that they are finding homes in the lower-100's readily.. I am amongst them. I cannot think of a car that offers more for the money, including the carbon fibre tub. The 540/70 combo will be a different drive and lower technology point. Mclaren london guys said they can't get enuf 12Cs, that many originally UK supplied were exported until their dealer network grew, and finally that people enquiring about the new car were buying 12Cs. Apply a discount to that for sales patter if you will, it rings true.

My view: I am/ was quite exposed to Porsche. If a 996gt3 - a terrific drivers car- can be worth 80k, does that not make an MP12 in the low 100's look staggering value? I think so and have done so. And from behind the wheel I'd say I now know so.

I paid 133k for my car. The mileage is a little 'high' but the spec also high. Mileage can catch up, spec cannot. I bought a spider because- well why not. The best relative value is I believe a 2013 coupe.

2013 Spider for £133k? Staggering. The original owner must have lost £100k in 2 years

Sorry but no matter how good the car is, it's not worth that much of a haircut in 2 years

Who in their right mind would take a hit like this and go back and buy another one new?? The only Mclaren owners praising it seem to be the bargain hunters who "stole" them second hand. Problem going forward, is that someone has to buy them new........

Edited by TP321 on Friday 4th September 00:07

[isaldiri]

TP321 said:

2013 Spider for £133k? Staggering. The original owner must have lost £100k in 2 years

Sorry but no matter how good the car is, it's not worth that much of a haircut in 2 years

Who in their right mind would take a hit like this and go back and buy another one new?? The only Mclaren owners praising it seem to be the bargain hunters who "stole" them second hand. Problem going forward, is that someone has to buy them new........

Edited by TP321 on Friday 4th September 00:07

No one who bought a 2013 12c is taking anything like the kind of hit you suggest as..... no one was paying anything close to list by then. Which is a considerable problem for Mclaren i grant you but another issue altogether.

Here is one owner praising the car who didn't steal it 2nd hand. In fact I paid close to your quoted number earlier for my car in 2012 and have done 23k miles. Would certainly never claim to be "winning" as you said earlier but i have had a heck of a time driving the thing which really is a fantastic road car and have not felt constrained by the usage as one might in a ferrari and I can honestly say I have not for one second in the last 3 years ever thought that I wish I had bought a 458 instead back at the time.

[TISPKJ]

As I said before, please don't think that a 458 is any different, slightly better I would agree.
Also the loss is generally split over a few owners

[Boshly]

TP321 said:

2013 Spider for £133k? Staggering. The original owner must have lost £100k in 2 years

Sorry but no matter how good the car is, it's not worth that much of a haircut in 2 years

Who in their right mind would take a hit like this and go back and buy another one new?? The only Mclaren owners praising it seem to be the bargain hunters who "stole" them second hand. Problem going forward, is that someone has to buy them new........

Edited by TP321 on Friday 4th September 00:07

Most supercars or expensive brands will cost you a significant amount in depreciation. Fact. Ferrari has superb brand recognition that has cost them a lot of money and fair play to them; it didn't happen overnight. However whilst the 458 does hold its value slightly better than the equivalent McLaren (see brand comment above) this doesn't mean Ferraris don't lose shed loads of money. I bought a 16M in 2012 for £145k, that cost something like £238k new. And I bought from Tom Hartley who would have had his pound of flesh. That original buyer lost how much?

I drove both the 12C and the 650s yesterday. Very impressive cars!!

[cho]

Boshly said:

Most supercars or expensive brands will cost you a significant amount in depreciation. Fact. Ferrari has superb brand recognition that has cost them a lot of money and fair play to them; it didn't happen overnight. However whilst the 458 does hold its value slightly better than the equivalent McLaren (see brand comment above) this doesn't mean Ferraris don't lose shed loads of money. I bought a 16M in 2012 for £145k, that cost something like £238k new. And I bought from Tom Hartley who would have had his pound of flesh. That original buyer lost how much?

I drove both the 12C and the 650s yesterday. Very impressive cars!!

Wow I thought the ltd production fezzas were appreciating right from the off. How did the 16m lose that much?

On to the other point that a few others have made. It's difficult to compare like for like because most Ferrari owners are afraid to drive their cars. If you compare similar mileage 458's to 12c's(if that's even possible)the price differential might even be reversed.

[davek_964]

TP321 said:

2013 Spider for £133k? Staggering. The original owner must have lost £100k in 2 years

Sorry but no matter how good the car is, it's not worth that much of a haircut in 2 years

Who in their right mind would take a hit like this and go back and buy another one new?? The only Mclaren owners praising it seem to be the bargain hunters who "stole" them second hand. Problem going forward, is that someone has to buy them new........

Edited by TP321 on Friday 4th September 00:07

It's all relative though. There are people who buy a new Ferrari every couple of years, and even with better residuals they must be taking a hit of tens of thousands of pounds in depreciation. I couldn't afford to do that, but if they can - and they like the cars - then why not? Same with the McLarens - even if the depreciation is higher, if people prefer the cars - and can afford the hit - why not?

It's really a very subjective thing. I don't like depreciation, and I think that people who buy brand new 4 wheel sheds for £15k and see half of that disappear in depreciation are insane. I could afford that level of loss, but can't imagine why I'd want it. On the other hand, those same people drive around in their '15 plate sheds, happy they've got a new car and scored one up on the neighbours - and probably think I'm insane for having around £100k sunk into cars, the newest of which is almost 10 years old.

I think we all consider the "acceptable" cost of a car - including depreciation - in vastly different ways.

[SlartiF430]

TP321 said:

The 12c/650s is a great car. Period.

However, it doesn't have the X factor, and as such, the residuals are weak. Until the Mclaren badge has the same recognition as Ferrari, residuals will continue to suffer. Hats off to people who pay list, but it is crazy. The car below will have cost the original owner £185k...

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/m...

Very interested to see what will happen with the 675LT, when the new P14 makes its appearance.

Just sold my 430. Tossing up between 458 and 12Cs. The more I look at 458s the less they're doing it for me. Conventional doors and a shape that's ageing for me just a little (also slightly awkward looking). Not sure if the 12c spider is developing more X factor for me as time goes on.

[TP321]

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/f...

Here you go. A 2011 (one year older...) and with a shocking 27k miles. Look at the price - a cool £25k more than the younger 12c with less miles. Both these cars started at the same price, but one is hugely more desirable than the other, and the market proves it.

[SELON]

One thing the OP should consider with a 3yr old 12C is the cost of the annual warranty and servicing which starts at £5k p.a. There is no getting away from the running costs and the cost to buy and sell and you should be prepared for that. Keep the car longer is the only way to ease the cost. p.a. for these cars.

As an aside I understand the 458s seem to have the 7 year plan which, probably reduces these bills (I don't know what the 7 year plan includes). Once these end I assume that the 458 owner would be on a comparable extended annual warranty and service charging cycle and therefore there might be a commensurate drop in the sticker price at 7years? The price for the 458 2011 car has 2-3 years of these costs priced in.

[purpleperil]

Just booked mine in: Annual on a 2011 458 service is circa £750 inc VAT. One year power warranty circa £2700 inc VAT so a tad lower than for the McLaren?

[flemke]

TP321 said:

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/f...

Here you go. A 2011 (one year older...) and with a shocking 27k miles. Look at the price - a cool £25k more than the younger 12c with less miles. Both these cars started at the same price, but one is hugely more desirable than the other, and the market proves it.

You know, there is a big difference between "desirable" and "desired".

"Desirable" is an absolute condition.

"Desired" is merely a snapshot of current fashion, regardless of how misguided and short-lived the fashion may be.