Bye Bye 458

[greenbandit641]

f1ten said:

Im not that fussed if the f12 loses the bragging rights on 0-60mph. I imagine front engine and rear drive it will be later on 3rd gear it pulls back.

Anyway - one of these cars makes an incredible noise and the other makes a very poor and dull sound. Frankly when spending this amount of money I would not have a car that doesn't excite the hairs on my back. Im not a fan of the 458 noise massively either but it still sounds better than the 650 s - fact!

Again, I think you should look at the facts before assuming that the F12 could pull it back in 3rd gear, according to Ferrari the F12 can do quarter mile in 11 secs dead, that's nearly half a second behind the 650s. To answer your second quote, anyone who is prepared to spend 100's of millions can make a car sound good, a (manufactured sound) it's a well known fact that Ferrari & Lamborghini do spend ridiculous amounts of money producing the sounds, as for a 650s sounding dull, that's all to do with the engine having a flat plane crank, listen to a Yamaha R1, it's the same sound, and you can hear a Mclaren over 1/2 mile away so not too sure about it sounding dull, maybe isn't trying to say "look at me" like some other cars do.

[Ferruccio]

If it's the sound and the acceleration that matters, get a Ducati Panigale and buy a small flat with the saving.......

[Slickhillsy]

greenbandit641 said:

as for a 650s sounding dull, that's all to do with the engine having a flat plane crank, listen to a Yamaha R1, it's the same sound.

Not it's not the same!

Yam doesn't have a couple of blowers in the way masking the exhaust note
Yam does sound epic, especially with open / race pipes
650's (I'm afraid) doesn't sound anywhere nearly as good as ANY Italian brand. Doesn't sound bad, example compared to my Audi diesel it sounds great - but as a Supercar, it does lack the 'everything on the table' sound. Also think the 488 will suffer due to the new blown direction

Times are a-changing - Tis a fact...

[greenbandit641]

Slickhillsy said:

greenbandit641 said:

as for a 650s sounding dull, that's all to do with the engine having a flat plane crank, listen to a Yamaha R1, it's the same sound.

Not it's not the same!

Yam doesn't have a couple of blowers in the way masking the exhaust note
Yam does sound epic, especially with open / race pipes
650's (I'm afraid) doesn't sound anywhere nearly as good as ANY Italian brand. Doesn't sound bad, example compared to my Audi diesel it sounds great - but as a Supercar, it does lack the 'everything on the table' sound. Also think the 488 will suffer due to the new blown direction

Times are a-changing - Tis a fact...

I agree that the Italian super cars sound superb but as I have said, they spend hughe amounts of money producing that sound, the way to prove it is take the exhaust off them and put 2 N/A v8's side by side, if they are the same size then in theory they will sound almost the same because the acoustics can't be changed until it goes through the manufactured exhaust, why do you think people pay out large sums of money for aftermarket exhausts? Tubi and Akropovic make their money from creating sound through an exhaust system, it is highly unlikely that Ferrari make their own exhaust systems as it will be one of the top exhaust manufactures the make them for Ferrari

[ferdi p]

Slickhillsy said:

greenbandit641 said:

as for a 650s sounding dull, that's all to do with the engine having a flat plane crank, listen to a Yamaha R1, it's the same sound.

Not it's not the same!

Yam doesn't have a couple of blowers in the way masking the exhaust note
Yam does sound epic, especially with open / race pipes
650's (I'm afraid) doesn't sound anywhere nearly as good as ANY Italian brand. Doesn't sound bad, example compared to my Audi diesel it sounds great - but as a Supercar, it does lack the 'everything on the table' sound. Also think the 488 will suffer due to the new blown direction

Times are a-changing - Tis a fact...

Sound, like art, can be very subjective.

My 12C sounded epic & I preferred it to the on/off sound of my 430.

I just don't get this 'McLarens sound crap' bo11ox, its no 991GT3 but its bloody good.

[Slickhillsy]

greenbandit641 said:

...to prove it is take the exhaust off them and put 2 N/A v8's side by side, if they are the same size then in theory they will sound almost the same because the acoustics can't be changed until it goes through the manufactured exhaust,

Sorry but this is not correct!
The noise variation starts not at the exhaust but with the architecture of the engine itself. Put an Aston V8 (4.2) Vantage next to a Ferrari (4.3) F430, remove the exhaust and they will still sound completely different!

The exhaust is admittedly used to control and manage the sound / noise level - but it is not solely responsible for the sound the car makes.

Same example with GP bikes. Honda / Ducati / Aprilia / Suzuki all use V4 yet each sound different. NOT because of their exhaust but because they have a range of firing orders / variations in the Vee angle / stroke (as some might not even be running full capacity)...

The sound 'question' with these latest modern cars is all down to the introduction of turbo's. They all suffer, nothing to do with exhaust / engine / brand...

Some more info on how Ferrari 'bring the noise'

The classic Ferrari 'sound' comes from a number of interacting elements that line up in a synchronized chorus.

First comes the flat plane crankshaft. This gives each cylinder bank an even firing order LRLRLRLR whereas the typical American V8 has an off kilter firing order LRLLRLRR. The even firing order means that the intake and exhaust pulses are also synchronized and evenly spaced.

Next comes the headers. These headers are tuned for the power band of the engine, not too big, not too small, not too long not too short. The headers cause much of the low frequency rumble from these engines by setting up a standing wave pattern of pressure pulses.

Next come the intake system. Here the air path is essentially straight (e.g. no turns) that enables the air to flow into the cylinders with minimal resistance. The straight air flow and low resistance enables the velocity stacks to be tuned with the header to broaden the power band.

As the intake valve opens (with the still open exhaust valve) air begins to travel into the cylinder even before the piston starts downward from the negative pressure wave from the header. As the intake valve closes, there is considerable momentum in the air flow. When this reaches the closed intake valve, pressure builds until a positive pressure pulse runs up the intake and velocity stack finds air at atmospheric pressure and sends a negative pressure wave back down. This negative pressure wave runs into the intake valve and sends a negative pressure wave back up the intake and VS, causing a subsequent positive pressure wave. much of the high frequency music of these engines comes directly from this process.

Just under the resonance point of the header there are an even number of intake cycles so that when the intake valve opens there is already positive pressure and momentum to take the fresh charge into the cylinder (also) even before the piston starts downward. Just above the resonance point of the header there is another even cycle count in the intake pulse train. There are generally 8 or 10 cycles on the low intake resonance and 8 or 6 on the high RPM intake resonance. These broaden the power band of the motor.

Finally, the throttle plates are positioned at the center of the intake path and at anything less than WOT damp out even order harmonics in the intake resonance so one hears the primary, 3rd order, 5th order,... of the air movements turned into that sonorous chorus. Even order harmonics end up sounding like an amplifier with cross over distortion, while odd order harmonics sound like an amplifier clipping the peak. Any music buff will tell you that odd is much better than even in sound quality.

The modern V8 engines also employ a 2 stage set of resonators. The air box covering the intake tracks is tuned such that at header resonance a positive pressure wave is above each intake velocity stack just before the intake valve opens. The great rush of air into the cylinder reinforces this 'standing' wave resonance. These are known as Helmholtz resonators.

At the end of this resonator is a smallish tube leading to the largish air filter box. The size and length of this tube damp out the resonator standing wave such that the mass air flow sensor gets a nice smooth flow of air and can thereby be used to give precise control to the FI system.

The difference between Ferrari systems and other manufactures, is that Ferrari works to get the sizes, volumes, and resonance points to actually line up and sing. Whereas others just get them close enough to deliver the power.

[greenbandit641]

I was simply putting it in lay mans terms but of course someone has to go all annul. Of course the firing order makes a difference too but we will leave it there as its obvious you want the brownie points.

As someone else has pointed out since my last post, the noise the 650S makes is a fantastic noise but I didn't buy mine for the noise, I bought it for the looks, the performance and the handling and it doesn't need to say "hey look at me". Everyone knows the sound of a Ferrari as it makes sure everyone hears it saying I'm here and yes I know I sound like I'm doing 1000mph but I'm only doing 40mph.

[Rocco1]

greenbandit641 said:

I was simply putting it in lay mans terms but of course someone has to go all annul. Of course the firing order makes a difference too but we will leave it there as its obvious you want the brownie points.

As someone else has pointed out since my last post, the noise the 650S makes is a fantastic noise but I didn't buy mine for the noise, I bought it for the looks, the performance and the handling and it doesn't need to say "hey look at me". Everyone knows the sound of a Ferrari as it makes sure everyone hears it saying I'm here and yes I know I sound like I'm doing 1000mph but I'm only doing 40mph.

Hello there Bandit are you taking the pi55 out of my Scud lol
I agree with you,Scud sounds like its travelling at 1000mph yet only doing 40 in comparison to your 650s if only the sound could match the speed

[greenbandit641]

http://youtu.be/75NLJ9vUlP0

Just to add salt to the wounds, this is a Speciale against the 650S, again, it gets wasted, perhaps wasted is inappropriate so how about humiliated, oh, and it's now 600bhp so only giving away 41bhp?

So, now we can see that the noise means everything!

[f1ten]

here is where I do get annoyed - Saying Ferrari is all show is just not right.
for example Ferrari do not do Arancio Orange or volcano orange etc.
can you imagine how "naff" a Ferrari in Purple or Orange would be... Pretty much unsalable second hand...

Yes I agree Lambo and Mac look damn good in these colours... but it does say a thing about how we perceive a Ferrari.... A graceful, Elegant thing which just would not suit a crazy colour.


Oh and Im British so Im proud of what McLaren have created and finally we have another super car brand that is a viable option...

I agree turbos are a problem having had a 911turbo this was a reason I sold it... the noise was not acceptable. I stand firm though, the Mac does not actually sound "good". - Mac f1 - amazing, Lambo/ Audi R8 v10 - Lovely, E90 M3 Lovely, Mac SLR ok not amazing, 997gt3 Amazing, Murcielago incredible...
Lets not be bias please... Im a petrol head and judge things on a number of merits. Ps I accept the 650s is apparently just mega round a track and looks stunning but its still missing something... I think if it had a v12 it would be king.

greenbandit641 said:

I was simply putting it in lay mans terms but of course someone has to go all annul. Of course the firing order makes a difference too but we will leave it there as its obvious you want the brownie points.

As someone else has pointed out since my last post, the noise the 650S makes is a fantastic noise but I didn't buy mine for the noise, I bought it for the looks, the performance and the handling and it doesn't need to say "hey look at me". Everyone knows the sound of a Ferrari as it makes sure everyone hears it saying I'm here and yes I know I sound like I'm doing 1000mph but I'm only doing 40mph.

[Streetrod]

f1ten said:

here is where I do get annoyed - Saying Ferrari is all show is just not right.
for example Ferrari do not do Arancio Orange or volcano orange etc.
can you imagine how "naff" a Ferrari in Purple or Orange would be... Pretty much unsalable second hand...

Yes I agree Lambo and Mac look damn good in these colours... but it does say a thing about how we perceive a Ferrari.... A graceful, Elegant thing which just would not suit a crazy colour.


Oh and Im British so Im proud of what McLaren have created and finally we have another super car brand that is a viable option...

I agree turbos are a problem having had a 911turbo this was a reason I sold it... the noise was not acceptable. I stand firm though, the Mac does not actually sound "good". - Mac f1 - amazing, Lambo/ Audi R8 v10 - Lovely, E90 M3 Lovely, Mac SLR ok not amazing, 997gt3 Amazing, Murcielago incredible...
Lets not be bias please... Im a petrol head and judge things on a number of merits. Ps I accept the 650s is apparently just mega round a track and looks stunning but its still missing something... I think if it had a v12 it would be king.

greenbandit641 said:

I was simply putting it in lay mans terms but of course someone has to go all annul. Of course the firing order makes a difference too but we will leave it there as its obvious you want the brownie points.

As someone else has pointed out since my last post, the noise the 650S makes is a fantastic noise but I didn't buy mine for the noise, I bought it for the looks, the performance and the handling and it doesn't need to say "hey look at me". Everyone knows the sound of a Ferrari as it makes sure everyone hears it saying I'm here and yes I know I sound like I'm doing 1000mph but I'm only doing 40mph.

With respect, Ferrari’s colour palette is the result of tradition, history and the lack of imagination of the owners to stray away from a path that has been chosen for them and the perceived difficulty in moving on a non red, black or yellow Ferrari. Add to this dealer’s reluctance to touch a non-traditional colours has compounded the problem.

I have seen a few non trad Ferrari colours that have looked wonderful and I congratulate the owners for specing them that way, but they are rare.

It has nothing to do with the cars not suiting other colours and is purely down to the brainwashing of Ferrari fans and owners over the years.

By the way I love Ferrari’s specifically classic ones, oddly you are more likely to see no trad colours on the older models from the 50’s and 60’s

[Slickhillsy]

LOL you lot are funny...

So!

greenbandit641 said:

I was simply putting it in lay mans terms

No... You were WRONG. Make it easy reading or not it's not correct...

greenbandit641 said:

but of course someone has to go all annul

Yep - just so we can get it right...

Can do the whole 'my car's faster than yaw's' thing all you like - TBH I dont care what you ride, drive or fly nor how fast or loud it is. Simply saying that Turbos make cars sound crap! Be they 650's or 488...

Simples really.

[br d]

My Ferrari made the hairs on my neck stand up at every press of the throttle.

My Lambo howled like a bat out of hell and could raise my heart beat just by listening to it.

My Mclaren sounds like a couple of heavy blankets going around in a tumble dryer.

But for sheer adrenal lunacy the Mac is king!

Edited by br d on Wednesday 7th October 18:21

[greenbandit641]

br d said:

My Ferrari made the hairs on my neck stand up at every press of the throttle!

My Lambo howled like a bat out of hell and could raise my heart beat just by listening to it!

My Mclaren sounds like a couple of heavy blankets going around in a tumble dryer.

But for sheer adrenal lunacy the Mac is king!

Not wanting to repeat myself again and again but I have already agreed that the above cars sound amazing but to say a Mac sounds like two heavy blankets in a tumble dryer is a little harsh. I agree they don't sound like the other two but when I drop the back window and open her up the sound is something to savour and it can be heard from some distance. The hairs on the back of my neck stand up with the performance which is what a supercar is about, (in my opinion)

[br d]

greenbandit641 said:

br d said:

My Ferrari made the hairs on my neck stand up at every press of the throttle!

My Lambo howled like a bat out of hell and could raise my heart beat just by listening to it!

My Mclaren sounds like a couple of heavy blankets going around in a tumble dryer.

But for sheer adrenal lunacy the Mac is king!

Not wanting to repeat myself again and again but I have already agreed that the above cars sound amazing but to say a Mac sounds like two heavy blankets in a tumble dryer is a little harsh. I agree they don't sound like the other two but when I drop the back window and open her up the sound is something to savour and it can be heard from some distance. The hairs on the back of my neck stand up with the performance which is what a supercar is about, (in my opinion)

I can see I'm going to have to give up trying to be humorous, it's clearly not my forte.

[Slickhillsy]

greenbandit641 said:

Not wanting to repeat myself again and again but...

Then don't! We get you like tumble dryer's...

[Dblue]

Slickhillsy said:

greenbandit641 said:

...to prove it is take the exhaust off them and put 2 N/A v8's side by side, if they are the same size then in theory they will sound almost the same because the acoustics can't be changed until it goes through the manufactured exhaust,

Sorry but this is not correct!
The noise variation starts not at the exhaust but with the architecture of the engine itself. Put an Aston V8 (4.2) Vantage next to a Ferrari (4.3) F430, remove the exhaust and they will still sound completely different!

The exhaust is admittedly used to control and manage the sound / noise level - but it is not solely responsible for the sound the car makes.

Same example with GP bikes. Honda / Ducati / Aprilia / Suzuki all use V4 yet each sound different. NOT because of their exhaust but because they have a range of firing orders / variations in the Vee angle / stroke (as some might not even be running full capacity)...

The sound 'question' with these latest modern cars is all down to the introduction of turbo's. They all suffer, nothing to do with exhaust / engine / brand...

Some more info on how Ferrari 'bring the noise'

The classic Ferrari 'sound' comes from a number of interacting elements that line up in a synchronized chorus.

First comes the flat plane crankshaft. This gives each cylinder bank an even firing order LRLRLRLR whereas the typical American V8 has an off kilter firing order LRLLRLRR. The even firing order means that the intake and exhaust pulses are also synchronized and evenly spaced.

Next comes the headers. These headers are tuned for the power band of the engine, not too big, not too small, not too long not too short. The headers cause much of the low frequency rumble from these engines by setting up a standing wave pattern of pressure pulses.

Next come the intake system. Here the air path is essentially straight (e.g. no turns) that enables the air to flow into the cylinders with minimal resistance. The straight air flow and low resistance enables the velocity stacks to be tuned with the header to broaden the power band.

As the intake valve opens (with the still open exhaust valve) air begins to travel into the cylinder even before the piston starts downward from the negative pressure wave from the header. As the intake valve closes, there is considerable momentum in the air flow. When this reaches the closed intake valve, pressure builds until a positive pressure pulse runs up the intake and velocity stack finds air at atmospheric pressure and sends a negative pressure wave back down. This negative pressure wave runs into the intake valve and sends a negative pressure wave back up the intake and VS, causing a subsequent positive pressure wave. much of the high frequency music of these engines comes directly from this process.

Just under the resonance point of the header there are an even number of intake cycles so that when the intake valve opens there is already positive pressure and momentum to take the fresh charge into the cylinder (also) even before the piston starts downward. Just above the resonance point of the header there is another even cycle count in the intake pulse train. There are generally 8 or 10 cycles on the low intake resonance and 8 or 6 on the high RPM intake resonance. These broaden the power band of the motor.

Finally, the throttle plates are positioned at the center of the intake path and at anything less than WOT damp out even order harmonics in the intake resonance so one hears the primary, 3rd order, 5th order,... of the air movements turned into that sonorous chorus. Even order harmonics end up sounding like an amplifier with cross over distortion, while odd order harmonics sound like an amplifier clipping the peak. Any music buff will tell you that odd is much better than even in sound quality.

The modern V8 engines also employ a 2 stage set of resonators. The air box covering the intake tracks is tuned such that at header resonance a positive pressure wave is above each intake velocity stack just before the intake valve opens. The great rush of air into the cylinder reinforces this 'standing' wave resonance. These are known as Helmholtz resonators.

At the end of this resonator is a smallish tube leading to the largish air filter box. The size and length of this tube damp out the resonator standing wave such that the mass air flow sensor gets a nice smooth flow of air and can thereby be used to give precise control to the FI system.

The difference between Ferrari systems and other manufactures, is that Ferrari works to get the sizes, volumes, and resonance points to actually line up and sing. Whereas others just get them close enough to deliver the power.

Interesting stuff Mark and certainly most Ferraris sound very good. Personally I found the Scuderia's sound a little bit of a blare rather than very musical and rather less wonderful than the Challenge Stradale , my own personal all time favourite.

Flat plane crank V8s don't lend themselves to being the very best Iwould say, V10s and V12s have inherent advantages.
Turbocharged flat plane V8s never going to be great. See if the 488 disproves that

But re the OP the 650 utterly hands the (Non-press car ) 458s arse here.

[Slickhillsy]

Dblue said:

Interesting stuff Mark and certainly most Ferraris sound very good. Personally I found the Scuderia's sound a little bit of a blare rather than very musical and rather less wonderful than the Challenge Stradale , my own personal all time favourite.

Flat plane crank V8s don't lend themselves to being the very best Iwould say, V10s and V12s have inherent advantages.
Turbocharged flat plane V8s never going to be great. See if the 488 disproves that

But re the OP the 650 utterly hands the (Non-press car ) 458s arse here.

Ahhhhhhh the 360 CS... Now that's how a car should sound!

Problem with the Scud is its exhaust valves and agree when it comes on song it is just and instant blare. Simple fix is to install a remote value unit, I keep them open most of the time and the sound is more progressive and much improved. Alas though no CS

[Rocco1]

Slickhillsy said:

Ahhhhhhh the 360 CS... Now that's how a car should sound!

Problem with the Scud is its exhaust valves and agree when it comes on song it is just and instant blare. Simple fix is to install a remote value unit, I keep them open most of the time and the sound is more progressive and much improved. Alas though no CS

Reminds me of someone crying for attention
LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME

[Slickhillsy]

Rocco1 said:

Reminds me of someone crying for attention
LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME