458 Spider - 650S Spider ?
Discussion
RamboLambo said:
An interesting view point but factually incorrect and a fundamentally flawed argument IMHO.
Maybe you should watch this and re-assess : "So much better than a 12C it defies belief" - Steve Sutcliffe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5h8cx9BGR8
He actually liked the 12C in the first place as well.
My personal findings and experience mirrored this journo even before I saw the video, so much so I upped my budget by £80k to get a 650S spider over a used 2013 12C spider.
I'm sure others, particularly 12C owners would not see the value or merit in that but coming from a 430 Scuderia the 12C was far too sedate for me whereas the 650S hit it on the head with the subjective feel, noise and excitement factor.
All those little tweaks really did bring the car alive and judging by others feedback who have made the jump from 12C to 650S they seem to agree and have no regrets
Maybe you should watch this and re-assess : "So much better than a 12C it defies belief" - Steve Sutcliffe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5h8cx9BGR8
He actually liked the 12C in the first place as well.
My personal findings and experience mirrored this journo even before I saw the video, so much so I upped my budget by £80k to get a 650S spider over a used 2013 12C spider.
I'm sure others, particularly 12C owners would not see the value or merit in that but coming from a 430 Scuderia the 12C was far too sedate for me whereas the 650S hit it on the head with the subjective feel, noise and excitement factor.
All those little tweaks really did bring the car alive and judging by others feedback who have made the jump from 12C to 650S they seem to agree and have no regrets
I drove a 12C spider and 650S spider back to back and MUCH preferred the 650S.A bit on man maths later I had one on the drive.
GTD40 said:
So not content with just trying to belittle all ferraris and Lambos, you're now starting on the 12C owners LOL
Merely stating the facts, no need for me to belittle anyone. 12C is a great car but 650S is better as you would fully expect.Maybe the 488 can catch up for Ferrari but I'm of the opinion the Huracan hasn't
RamboLambo said:
An interesting view point but factually incorrect and a fundamentally flawed argument IMHO.
Maybe you should watch this and re-assess : "So much better than a 12C it defies belief" - Steve Sutcliffe
Yes I've watched that review several times, he clearly loves the car but the headline is deliberately sensational (to sell magazines) and simply not true when compared to a fully updated 12C.Maybe you should watch this and re-assess : "So much better than a 12C it defies belief" - Steve Sutcliffe
Mr Sutcliffe is the one who's factually incorrect on a couple of points... for a start no tricks, let alone an "awful lot of them" from the P1 (beyond experience) made there way into the 650S.
He acknowledges the stiffer springs in the 650S but says that via the drive settings (Active Dynamics Panel) they made it "more chilled" in Normal mode which is plain wrong. The 650S rides brilliantly for a supercar but it can't match the 12C when you're just mooching between blasts.
As we have both said the extra low down engine torque defines the 650S experience, you and he like it but me not so much.
I stand by my assertion that a 650S is maybe 10% "better" than an updated 12C. If also you also prefer the less shouty looks of the 12C as I do that's not nearly enough to justify any sort of purchase premium.
Anyhow at least we agree both (12C and 650S) are fabulous and superior to Maranello's efforts
mikey k said:
RamboLambo said:
An interesting view point but factually incorrect and a fundamentally flawed argument IMHO.
Maybe you should watch this and re-assess : "So much better than a 12C it defies belief" - Steve Sutcliffe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5h8cx9BGR8
He actually liked the 12C in the first place as well.
My personal findings and experience mirrored this journo even before I saw the video, so much so I upped my budget by £80k to get a 650S spider over a used 2013 12C spider.
I'm sure others, particularly 12C owners would not see the value or merit in that but coming from a 430 Scuderia the 12C was far too sedate for me whereas the 650S hit it on the head with the subjective feel, noise and excitement factor.
All those little tweaks really did bring the car alive and judging by others feedback who have made the jump from 12C to 650S they seem to agree and have no regrets
Maybe you should watch this and re-assess : "So much better than a 12C it defies belief" - Steve Sutcliffe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5h8cx9BGR8
He actually liked the 12C in the first place as well.
My personal findings and experience mirrored this journo even before I saw the video, so much so I upped my budget by £80k to get a 650S spider over a used 2013 12C spider.
I'm sure others, particularly 12C owners would not see the value or merit in that but coming from a 430 Scuderia the 12C was far too sedate for me whereas the 650S hit it on the head with the subjective feel, noise and excitement factor.
All those little tweaks really did bring the car alive and judging by others feedback who have made the jump from 12C to 650S they seem to agree and have no regrets
I drove a 12C spider and 650S spider back to back and MUCH preferred the 650S.A bit on man maths later I had one on the drive.
p-car said:
RamboLambo said:
An interesting view point but factually incorrect and a fundamentally flawed argument IMHO.
Maybe you should watch this and re-assess : "So much better than a 12C it defies belief" - Steve Sutcliffe
Yes I've watched that review several times, he clearly loves the car but the headline is deliberately sensational (to sell magazines) and simply not true when compared to a fully updated 12C.Maybe you should watch this and re-assess : "So much better than a 12C it defies belief" - Steve Sutcliffe
Mr Sutcliffe is the one who's factually incorrect on a couple of points... for a start no tricks, let alone an "awful lot of them" from the P1 (beyond experience) made there way into the 650S.
He acknowledges the stiffer springs in the 650S but says that via the drive settings (Active Dynamics Panel) they made it "more chilled" in Normal mode which is plain wrong. The 650S rides brilliantly for a supercar but it can't match the 12C when you're just mooching between blasts.
As we have both said the extra low down engine torque defines the 650S experience, you and he like it but me not so much.
I stand by my assertion that a 650S is maybe 10% "better" than an updated 12C. If also you also prefer the less shouty looks of the 12C as I do that's not nearly enough to justify any sort of purchase premium.
Anyhow at least we agree both (12C and 650S) are fabulous and superior to Maranello's efforts
Wilmslowboy said:
Hi
I have a late 63 plate 12c spider but before I bought it I seriously considered a 458 spider....but like for like (miles and year) I would have to have found an additional £25k.
A late 12c is basically the same car as a 650s, without the addition of some upgrades and a new front end, I also considered a 650s spider but at the time the cost difference for a 1 year newer 650s spider to a 12c spider was £40k.
Noise - mine has a sports exhaust and sounds absolutely epic, pops, bangs and roars, it also has some element of a high pitched scream (12c revs to over 8k) but it is not that unique primeval wail of a Ferrari (although I would also say that a 458 falls a little short in this department as well compared to some previous generation V8 Ferraris).
Response from people - almost universally positive - it's a british car, little or no association with "loads of money" and it has cool doors. People want to know what it is and generally talk about it/ have their photo taken with it, touch wood to date I've had zero negative reactions.
I'm made up with my car....and on balance would say it's better car than a 458....however personally there is something to Ferraris that goes beyond the metal, leather and plastic....and the McLaren doesn't quite have that (yet).
I have a feeling this is my old car (if so, you did write to me via e-mail but I can't link your handle so not sure). It was bought about the right time, with the same mileage and it's exactly the same spec. If so, hope it's going well, it was a great car for me. Lots to love about the 12C (including the fact that it looks nicer than a 650!)I have a late 63 plate 12c spider but before I bought it I seriously considered a 458 spider....but like for like (miles and year) I would have to have found an additional £25k.
A late 12c is basically the same car as a 650s, without the addition of some upgrades and a new front end, I also considered a 650s spider but at the time the cost difference for a 1 year newer 650s spider to a 12c spider was £40k.
Noise - mine has a sports exhaust and sounds absolutely epic, pops, bangs and roars, it also has some element of a high pitched scream (12c revs to over 8k) but it is not that unique primeval wail of a Ferrari (although I would also say that a 458 falls a little short in this department as well compared to some previous generation V8 Ferraris).
Response from people - almost universally positive - it's a british car, little or no association with "loads of money" and it has cool doors. People want to know what it is and generally talk about it/ have their photo taken with it, touch wood to date I've had zero negative reactions.
I'm made up with my car....and on balance would say it's better car than a 458....however personally there is something to Ferraris that goes beyond the metal, leather and plastic....and the McLaren doesn't quite have that (yet).
458s are great too and the Speciale is very special indeed - when mine arrived I decide to move on the 12C. But, I always thought the 12C was better for my needs than the 458 Italia. They are very closely matched cars, the 458 more tactile and the 12C faster with some brilliant tech. Pretty much as the press tests conclured at the time. I remember one concluding that they are so close that it comes down to which badge you want on your key fob. And that's about where it's at really.
Edited by LukeyLikey on Sunday 20th March 22:33
The 12C vs 650s has been debated to death.
Truth is there are small improvements in all areas. Very small improvements when comparing a late fully upgraded 12C.
The final decision rest with: styling and wallet. And everyone is entitled to have different point of view.
I would be interested to see what those same people would say if asked to drive the 2 cars without knowing beforehand which one it is they are driving... It is funny what your mind creates when one is being told what to expect....
What I find funny is that the guys who argue and argue over and over that those small improvements are worth 80k, suddenly do not agree to the fact that bigger improvements from a 650 to a 675 are worth the additional money (which is not that dissimilar).... And if they cannot agree to the 650 / 675, then surely they should understand why others see the 12C / 650 as they are...
Truth is there are small improvements in all areas. Very small improvements when comparing a late fully upgraded 12C.
The final decision rest with: styling and wallet. And everyone is entitled to have different point of view.
I would be interested to see what those same people would say if asked to drive the 2 cars without knowing beforehand which one it is they are driving... It is funny what your mind creates when one is being told what to expect....
What I find funny is that the guys who argue and argue over and over that those small improvements are worth 80k, suddenly do not agree to the fact that bigger improvements from a 650 to a 675 are worth the additional money (which is not that dissimilar).... And if they cannot agree to the 650 / 675, then surely they should understand why others see the 12C / 650 as they are...
Sutcliffe can drive and very well at that but he is a s
t journo. Most of the time he comes out with utter tosh. What he says is absolutely not really relevant to how a car really is imo.
I don't disagree the 650 overall is a better car than the 12c and in some respects decently better. However, imo a lot of the differences some find are due to corsa tyres on the 650 vs mostly pzeros (and earlier gen ones to boot) on the 12c. Both tires are crap but the corsas once warm do deliver more performance and feel.
I do however dispute the steering on the 650 being better. The steering rack is faster and the steering weight is a lot heavier but there is less feel in what the front of the car is doing as the faster steering for some reason for me at least makes the car feel too edgy, exactly like what i did not like in modern ferraris which imo is a lame trick to make the car feel more 'exciting'. Interestingly enough the 675 per a good friend has an even faster steering ratio but doesn't feel artifically edgy in the same way as a 650.....
t journo. Most of the time he comes out with utter tosh. What he says is absolutely not really relevant to how a car really is imo. I don't disagree the 650 overall is a better car than the 12c and in some respects decently better. However, imo a lot of the differences some find are due to corsa tyres on the 650 vs mostly pzeros (and earlier gen ones to boot) on the 12c. Both tires are crap but the corsas once warm do deliver more performance and feel.
I do however dispute the steering on the 650 being better. The steering rack is faster and the steering weight is a lot heavier but there is less feel in what the front of the car is doing as the faster steering for some reason for me at least makes the car feel too edgy, exactly like what i did not like in modern ferraris which imo is a lame trick to make the car feel more 'exciting'. Interestingly enough the 675 per a good friend has an even faster steering ratio but doesn't feel artifically edgy in the same way as a 650.....
isaldiri said:
Sutcliffe can drive and very well at that but he is a st journo. Most of the time he comes out with utter tosh. What he says is absolutely not really relevant to how a car really is imo....
Can only agree with this... the amount of times he gets his facts utterly wrong (cayenne turbo has a Pdk box according to him) reflects badly... he also never fails to absolutely adore the long termers hes given.... and much as I loved his time as Autocar editor (when the magazine produced its most enthusiast related content), as a road tester you really have to take what he says with a large pinch of saltt journo. Most of the time he comes out with utter tosh. What he says is absolutely not really relevant to how a car really is imo....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu88cgshkHE
Another journo singing its praises and improvements over 12C
Another journo singing its praises and improvements over 12C
mb1 said:
The 12C vs 650s has been debated to death.
Truth is there are small improvements in all areas. Very small improvements when comparing a late fully upgraded 12C.
The final decision rest with: styling and wallet. And everyone is entitled to have different point of view.
I would be interested to see what those same people would say if asked to drive the 2 cars without knowing beforehand which one it is they are driving... It is funny what your mind creates when one is being told what to expect....
What I find funny is that the guys who argue and argue over and over that those small improvements are worth 80k, suddenly do not agree to the fact that bigger improvements from a 650 to a 675 are worth the additional money (which is not that dissimilar).... And if they cannot agree to the 650 / 675, then surely they should understand why others see the 12C / 650 as they are...
Its all matters of opinion of course but we all make our best judgments and then justify them to ourselves and others.Truth is there are small improvements in all areas. Very small improvements when comparing a late fully upgraded 12C.
The final decision rest with: styling and wallet. And everyone is entitled to have different point of view.
I would be interested to see what those same people would say if asked to drive the 2 cars without knowing beforehand which one it is they are driving... It is funny what your mind creates when one is being told what to expect....
What I find funny is that the guys who argue and argue over and over that those small improvements are worth 80k, suddenly do not agree to the fact that bigger improvements from a 650 to a 675 are worth the additional money (which is not that dissimilar).... And if they cannot agree to the 650 / 675, then surely they should understand why others see the 12C / 650 as they are...
I've not seen a single person suggesting the 675 is not significantly improved in many ways over the 650, it clearly is , although its purpose is different of course. The 650 is intended as a more all round car.
And the difference between a late model 12C Spider and a 650 Spider is more like 35k than 80k. In my drives the 12C was just not as nice, steering (Sorry ST -like the sharper heavier feel myself ), gearchange especially feel superior as does the noise which can only be described as industrial in the 12C. But, I can see why some prefer the even better ride in normal, the less fussy front treatment and the fully depreciated, still ballistic and much cheaper older car.
Stunning photo.
Thanks for all the feedback folks - very useful whilst I deliberate. I had a great drive around in the F at the weekend so reminded me how fun it is.
Looking forward to the test drive in the 650S to see how it matches up. I'm down at McLaren London tomorrow checking out a few deals to see what is out there - they do seem to shift hands quickly
Cheers
Matt
Thanks for all the feedback folks - very useful whilst I deliberate. I had a great drive around in the F at the weekend so reminded me how fun it is.
Looking forward to the test drive in the 650S to see how it matches up. I'm down at McLaren London tomorrow checking out a few deals to see what is out there - they do seem to shift hands quickly
Cheers
Matt
shabster said:
Stunning photo.
Thanks for all the feedback folks - very useful whilst I deliberate. I had a great drive around in the F at the weekend so reminded me how fun it is.
Looking forward to the test drive in the 650S to see how it matches up. I'm down at McLaren London tomorrow checking out a few deals to see what is out there - they do seem to shift hands quickly
Cheers
Matt
Good luck tomorrow but if you snooze you loseThanks for all the feedback folks - very useful whilst I deliberate. I had a great drive around in the F at the weekend so reminded me how fun it is.
Looking forward to the test drive in the 650S to see how it matches up. I'm down at McLaren London tomorrow checking out a few deals to see what is out there - they do seem to shift hands quickly
Cheers
Matt
shabster said:
Stunning photo.
Thanks for all the feedback folks - very useful whilst I deliberate. I had a great drive around in the F at the weekend so reminded me how fun it is.
Looking forward to the test drive in the 650S to see how it matches up. I'm down at McLaren London tomorrow checking out a few deals to see what is out there - they do seem to shift hands quickly
Cheers
Matt
You will certainly experience one aspect of the 650S around Knightsbridge but not the one that matters if you enjoy driving Thanks for all the feedback folks - very useful whilst I deliberate. I had a great drive around in the F at the weekend so reminded me how fun it is.
Looking forward to the test drive in the 650S to see how it matches up. I'm down at McLaren London tomorrow checking out a few deals to see what is out there - they do seem to shift hands quickly
Cheers
Matt
Jappo said:
You will certainly experience one aspect of the 650S around Knightsbridge but not the one that matters if you enjoy driving
Yeah - not planning to test drive around London (not test driving tomorrow) but atleast get up close and have a proper look at a car, and get firm details on what kind of deal I can strike on a stock model. Then I'll do a proper test drive knowing that if I like it it's something I can move forward with...
#puddleHi folks
So I managed to get down to McLaren London today. I took a 650S spider for a 45 min test drive (albeit in London traffic) and got to spend some quality time with the car.
Observations vs my 458 Spider.
Pros:
- better cabin, feels more planted - nice being surrounded by the carbon tub
- better stereo. It had the Meridian upgrade and it sounds better than the equivalent "Hi Power Hifi" in the 458.
- similar ride in "comfort" mode
- like how you can close the roof whilst moving
- like IRIS2 setup vs the infotainment in the 458 - Bluetooth streaming worked well
- love love love the doors
- liked the positive attention it gained around streets of London - all positive.
- there ARE deals to be had on stock cars (new). It is a big sway factor vs the zero discount on a new 488 spider despite having an established Ferrari relationship.
- could be down to individual persona - but I felt there was a more honest sales discussion to be had vs my Ferrari dealer where I often have to push for responses to my emails and enquiries.
- Love the lift system - there is real clearance both front and back
Cons:
- the sound. It sounds better than I thought but not as good as 458 in my ear. Different and do need to hear it at full pelt to make a judgement.
- didn't get the sense of rawness/urgency of the 458 yet but admittedly didn't get it above 30mph. I need to get the car to a point there the turbos are fully engaged.
Next step: McLaren London are kindly bringing a car to my stomping grounds in surrey tomorrow night. I'll get to drive it around my favourite roads that I take the 458 on regularly and get a real feel for the car. I'll prob take the 458 Spider out straight after back to back and have a good comparison.
I am 90% sold given the deal on the table. I like the looks of the car and I'm warming to being into something different and more exclusive. I got a good offer of part ex on my 458 Spider to boot so the numbers work well, and will be considerably better off vs completing on my 488 Spider order - I could buy something else in addition with the change.
More tomorrow after the "proper" drive.
Cheers
Matt
So I managed to get down to McLaren London today. I took a 650S spider for a 45 min test drive (albeit in London traffic) and got to spend some quality time with the car.
Observations vs my 458 Spider.
Pros:
- better cabin, feels more planted - nice being surrounded by the carbon tub
- better stereo. It had the Meridian upgrade and it sounds better than the equivalent "Hi Power Hifi" in the 458.
- similar ride in "comfort" mode
- like how you can close the roof whilst moving
- like IRIS2 setup vs the infotainment in the 458 - Bluetooth streaming worked well
- love love love the doors
- liked the positive attention it gained around streets of London - all positive.
- there ARE deals to be had on stock cars (new). It is a big sway factor vs the zero discount on a new 488 spider despite having an established Ferrari relationship.
- could be down to individual persona - but I felt there was a more honest sales discussion to be had vs my Ferrari dealer where I often have to push for responses to my emails and enquiries.
- Love the lift system - there is real clearance both front and back
Cons:
- the sound. It sounds better than I thought but not as good as 458 in my ear. Different and do need to hear it at full pelt to make a judgement.
- didn't get the sense of rawness/urgency of the 458 yet but admittedly didn't get it above 30mph. I need to get the car to a point there the turbos are fully engaged.
Next step: McLaren London are kindly bringing a car to my stomping grounds in surrey tomorrow night. I'll get to drive it around my favourite roads that I take the 458 on regularly and get a real feel for the car. I'll prob take the 458 Spider out straight after back to back and have a good comparison.
I am 90% sold given the deal on the table. I like the looks of the car and I'm warming to being into something different and more exclusive. I got a good offer of part ex on my 458 Spider to boot so the numbers work well, and will be considerably better off vs completing on my 488 Spider order - I could buy something else in addition with the change.
More tomorrow after the "proper" drive.
Cheers
Matt
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