12c trade bids
Discussion
W4NTED said:
Mclaren's will only fall further as time moves on. With a new model launch pretty much every 3 months the older models will only go one way and that is DOWN! 650s for £120k and a 570s for £85k is not too far away. They are lovely car's but Mclaren will be a victim of their own stupid launch tactics. They need to take a leaf out of the Italian book and come out with ONE good model that can rule the market for a good few years before even thinking about the next.
How many for sale? Hardly any. How quickly do they sell? Pretty damned quickly. My economics teacher taught me something about this concept known as supply-and-demand. I think it's playing out here. Sure the whole market could go pear shaped but demand is high. Also. Im never selling mine. One of my sons will probably inherit it. My volcano red 650s spyder with extensive MSO is a future classic for sure and will offer a great financial safety net for my kids. SlartiF430 said:
How many for sale? Hardly any. How quickly do they sell? Pretty damned quickly. My economics teacher taught me something about this concept known as supply-and-demand. I think it's playing out here. Sure the whole market could go pear shaped but demand is high. Also. Im never selling mine. One of my sons will probably inherit it. My volcano red 650s spyder with extensive MSO is a future classic for sure and will offer a great financial safety net for my kids.
You must be mad because that's exactly how I see it with mineSlartiF430 said:
One of my sons will probably inherit it. My volcano red 650s spyder with extensive MSO is a future classic for sure and will offer a great financial safety net for my kids.
no one even vaguely sensible surely can believe that and hopefully i need a whoosh parrot because the alternative is that you actually believe the above and it's utterly loony.The mclarens are great cars to drive but they s
t money in consumables, servicing and mileage like every other high end performance car. There isn't a worse "investment" for the kids than i could think of than a sports car that offers nothing that will not be superseded by the next model.Well, some McLarens increase in value, like this F1. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2620735/Br...
If the trend is same as for Porsche 993 Turbo, RS and "S" models the MP4-12C will at least double in value over the next 15 years. Reason ? They are manufactured in low numbers and that always attracts collectors..
If the trend is same as for Porsche 993 Turbo, RS and "S" models the MP4-12C will at least double in value over the next 15 years. Reason ? They are manufactured in low numbers and that always attracts collectors..
I think there is an alternative view, when buying a McLaren. A used 12C is around £120k, forget for a minute that they are slightly increasing in value and lets say they are static. In 3 years time you would have paid £9,500 in warranties (£3,500 x 2 + £2,500 as there is a discount if you buy 2 years at once). The servicing is £1,500 pa so that's £4,500 and this is about right as it has been covered in other threads. Tyres, pads and other consumables and insurance / tax are in line with Porsche so I will not consider as all things being equal.
So total exceptional running costs for 3 years are £14,000
Compare to a new Porsche Boxster S the least depreciating car in the UK with the highest retained values at 52% in 3 years. List is £52k so £56k with a few options. It has a warranty included so no cost there and servicing is approx 50% of McLaren so £2,250 over 3 years. Total running cost over 3 years £29,130. More than double that of a 3 year old McLaren.
These are the figures to use when justifying a used McLaren. Run a supercar for 3 years and be £15,000 better off! That's £15,000 that can be invested elsewhere.
Looking at the Hagerty Indexes we can see that long term almost all supercars appreciate. In the past 10 years from 2006 the Testarossa from $52k to $120k and the Countach to $120k to $615k. Even a 360 from $59k 2 years ago to $79k today. Ok there have been dips but long term prices do rise and these cars make good financial sense when compared to mainstream cars. Even if McLarens don't appreciate they can still be cheaper to run than a Porsche Boxster over 3 years.
So total exceptional running costs for 3 years are £14,000
Compare to a new Porsche Boxster S the least depreciating car in the UK with the highest retained values at 52% in 3 years. List is £52k so £56k with a few options. It has a warranty included so no cost there and servicing is approx 50% of McLaren so £2,250 over 3 years. Total running cost over 3 years £29,130. More than double that of a 3 year old McLaren.
These are the figures to use when justifying a used McLaren. Run a supercar for 3 years and be £15,000 better off! That's £15,000 that can be invested elsewhere.
Looking at the Hagerty Indexes we can see that long term almost all supercars appreciate. In the past 10 years from 2006 the Testarossa from $52k to $120k and the Countach to $120k to $615k. Even a 360 from $59k 2 years ago to $79k today. Ok there have been dips but long term prices do rise and these cars make good financial sense when compared to mainstream cars. Even if McLarens don't appreciate they can still be cheaper to run than a Porsche Boxster over 3 years.
Edited by Bispal on Wednesday 27th July 18:23
It is absolutely hilarious people are trying to compare the 12c or 650 to the F40 or even more amusingly the F1 in terms of car value. I mean. Are you guys being really that deluded?
Why compare a used 12c vs a new boxster other than intentionally fiddling your numbers to self justify one car over another. Compare it vs a used 997 or 991 gt3 over the last 3 years and see how that works?
If you guys truly believe the 12c/650 is a great investment I do somewhat wonder how you manage to sort out your finances such that you can buy the cars. I am very aware I am in a lucky position to own the car but I absolutely do not kid myself it's been an absolutely st investment compared to a heck of a lot of things. What it has given me however over 30k miles has been more than sufficient to make up for the various financial costs (and believe me you don't want to know how much I've spent on maintenance as I'm OCD in keeping the car in good mechanical order).
Why compare a used 12c vs a new boxster other than intentionally fiddling your numbers to self justify one car over another. Compare it vs a used 997 or 991 gt3 over the last 3 years and see how that works?
If you guys truly believe the 12c/650 is a great investment I do somewhat wonder how you manage to sort out your finances such that you can buy the cars. I am very aware I am in a lucky position to own the car but I absolutely do not kid myself it's been an absolutely s
t investment compared to a heck of a lot of things. What it has given me however over 30k miles has been more than sufficient to make up for the various financial costs (and believe me you don't want to know how much I've spent on maintenance as I'm OCD in keeping the car in good mechanical order).I think you need to have vision and faith and look longer term.
3,500 12c and 2,500 650S worldwide is small production volumes compared with the mainstream supercar makers.
No one is disputing how good the cars are and the fact that they are CURRENTLY cheap in comparison is a bonus.
No one disputes the brand is growing exponentially fuelling demand.
Demand that current supply of 12C/650s will not be able to satisfy.
In 10 years time there will people on this forum saying if only I bought that McLaren at £120k
If you cant see it I suggest you lack vision which is all the better for the rest of us
I owned a F430 Spider F1 and a 430 Scuderia. Both great cars and I can see why 430 Scuderia commands a premium due to its limited numbers but a regular production standard vanilla car currently at £120k is too expensive for what its worth IMHO.
12c/650S production numbers are like Challenge stradale/Scuderia/Speciale so when the brand catches up maybe 25 years down the line so will prices eventually.
How long did it take Ferrari and Lamborghini to create the brand, McLaren has really only been producing cars for 5 years and look what has already been achieved. Nothing short of amazing
3,500 12c and 2,500 650S worldwide is small production volumes compared with the mainstream supercar makers.
No one is disputing how good the cars are and the fact that they are CURRENTLY cheap in comparison is a bonus.
No one disputes the brand is growing exponentially fuelling demand.
Demand that current supply of 12C/650s will not be able to satisfy.
In 10 years time there will people on this forum saying if only I bought that McLaren at £120k
If you cant see it I suggest you lack vision which is all the better for the rest of us
I owned a F430 Spider F1 and a 430 Scuderia. Both great cars and I can see why 430 Scuderia commands a premium due to its limited numbers but a regular production standard vanilla car currently at £120k is too expensive for what its worth IMHO.
12c/650S production numbers are like Challenge stradale/Scuderia/Speciale so when the brand catches up maybe 25 years down the line so will prices eventually.
How long did it take Ferrari and Lamborghini to create the brand, McLaren has really only been producing cars for 5 years and look what has already been achieved. Nothing short of amazing
People buy Ferraris because they are Ferraris and there's the whole passion/history etc thing about them that doesn't exist for Mclaren and probably never will. Look at the way prices have moved, despite lower production numbers the modern Mclaren Automotive cars are in no way holding as well as the equivalent Ferrari (or even one generation prior). Even the 675 has nothing like the premium of a Speciale nevermind Aperta.
Glad I lack this 'vision' you constantly drone about anyway as without it, I do not delude myself that my car is going to rocket in value and be a guaranteed future classic and go on forums lecturing anyone who doesn't think so....
Glad I lack this 'vision' you constantly drone about anyway as without it, I do not delude myself that my car is going to rocket in value and be a guaranteed future classic and go on forums lecturing anyone who doesn't think so....
I agree that the 12C and 650S are amazing cars, but you are making the wrong comparisons RAmboLambo.
F430's will NEVER be extremely valuable collectibles. Just because there are way too many of them created. So yeah compared to a "normal" F430 (F1), the McLaren is a better investment if thats why you want to buy the car.
But thats the wrong comparison.
You would need to compare the 650S to the F430 Scuderia... Probably they will end up around the same production numbers.
The 16M (F430 Scuderia Spyder) has a production number of 499 (its actually higher, but thats a separate discussion), which currently starts to retail above MSRP give or take a few bucks depending on in which country you bought the car. That car is more rare than the 650S spyder, so if a car which is of a much more known brand with a lower production run took that long to get back to MSRP, what are the chances of a car of a smaller brand with a larger production run going to be to go over MSRP. They are going to be probably less likely.
So by all means. Enjoy your cars, cherish them, but there are simply too many build. 3,500 is just too many.
Dont get me wrong, I want one as well and im willing to pay for it, but the fact there are so many and the fact McLaren is churning them out at astonishing rate, is not a good sign for short-term future values.
Peace.
F430's will NEVER be extremely valuable collectibles. Just because there are way too many of them created. So yeah compared to a "normal" F430 (F1), the McLaren is a better investment if thats why you want to buy the car.
But thats the wrong comparison.
You would need to compare the 650S to the F430 Scuderia... Probably they will end up around the same production numbers.
The 16M (F430 Scuderia Spyder) has a production number of 499 (its actually higher, but thats a separate discussion), which currently starts to retail above MSRP give or take a few bucks depending on in which country you bought the car. That car is more rare than the 650S spyder, so if a car which is of a much more known brand with a lower production run took that long to get back to MSRP, what are the chances of a car of a smaller brand with a larger production run going to be to go over MSRP. They are going to be probably less likely.
So by all means. Enjoy your cars, cherish them, but there are simply too many build. 3,500 is just too many.
Dont get me wrong, I want one as well and im willing to pay for it, but the fact there are so many and the fact McLaren is churning them out at astonishing rate, is not a good sign for short-term future values.
Peace.
At the final step to putting my 12c sypder up for sale.... 
If values sky rocket no doubt I will by miffed.......as it is, after my 6 months of ownership I will have just slightly better than broken even (much better than I planned for)
However even though I love it, there is so many more other flavours of horse power to enjoy (as well)
hmmm what next 650s..huracan..458... choices choices
If later I regret selling it and end up returning back to a 12c ...then it will have been an adventure/ experience...(and that folks is what life is all about
)
If values sky rocket no doubt I will by miffed.......as it is, after my 6 months of ownership I will have just slightly better than broken even (much better than I planned for)
However even though I love it, there is so many more other flavours of horse power to enjoy (as well)
hmmm what next 650s..huracan..458... choices choices
If later I regret selling it and end up returning back to a 12c ...then it will have been an adventure/ experience...(and that folks is what life is all about
)Brakke said:
I agree that the 12C and 650S are amazing cars, but you are making the wrong comparisons RAmboLambo.
F430's will NEVER be extremely valuable collectibles. Just because there are way too many of them created. So yeah compared to a "normal" F430 (F1), the McLaren is a better investment if thats why you want to buy the car.
But thats the wrong comparison.
You would need to compare the 650S to the F430 Scuderia... Probably they will end up around the same production numbers.
The 16M (F430 Scuderia Spyder) has a production number of 499 (its actually higher, but thats a separate discussion), which currently starts to retail above MSRP give or take a few bucks depending on in which country you bought the car. That car is more rare than the 650S spyder, so if a car which is of a much more known brand with a lower production run took that long to get back to MSRP, what are the chances of a car of a smaller brand with a larger production run going to be to go over MSRP. They are going to be probably less likely.
So by all means. Enjoy your cars, cherish them, but there are simply too many build. 3,500 is just too many.
Dont get me wrong, I want one as well and im willing to pay for it, but the fact there are so many and the fact McLaren is churning them out at astonishing rate, is not a good sign for short-term future values.
Peace.
So we agree a regular F430 at £120k, same price as the superior 12C, is madness. F430's will NEVER be extremely valuable collectibles. Just because there are way too many of them created. So yeah compared to a "normal" F430 (F1), the McLaren is a better investment if thats why you want to buy the car.
But thats the wrong comparison.
You would need to compare the 650S to the F430 Scuderia... Probably they will end up around the same production numbers.
The 16M (F430 Scuderia Spyder) has a production number of 499 (its actually higher, but thats a separate discussion), which currently starts to retail above MSRP give or take a few bucks depending on in which country you bought the car. That car is more rare than the 650S spyder, so if a car which is of a much more known brand with a lower production run took that long to get back to MSRP, what are the chances of a car of a smaller brand with a larger production run going to be to go over MSRP. They are going to be probably less likely.
So by all means. Enjoy your cars, cherish them, but there are simply too many build. 3,500 is just too many.
Dont get me wrong, I want one as well and im willing to pay for it, but the fact there are so many and the fact McLaren is churning them out at astonishing rate, is not a good sign for short-term future values.
Peace.
RamboLambo said:
So we agree a regular F430 at £120k, same price as the superior 12C, is madness.
Unless its a manual F430. Cause those production numbers are close(r) to 12C numbers.For the rest:
F430 (or 458) --> relatively high supply and relatively high demand
12C ---> relatively low supply and relatively low demand
So the way I see it is the demand for the F430/458 is already as high as I have ever seen it. Chances of it going bats
t crazy more than now are small (F430 prices went up, 458 prices are stable as far as I can see)McLaren has upswing potential as the lower supply (lower production numbers * willinges to sell) is being met with relative low demand compared to demand of F430s/458s but if demand starts to increase then it will have a quicker and bigger impact on price. Its all relative to each other. Having said that, 3500 units is hardly scarce and once prices go up, people will be tempted to offer their 12C for sale for a newer model, which McLaren at the moment seem to be doing by churning out 1 model a year , something which Ferrari is not doing.
If McLaren would slow the f*ck down, then prices would hold much better, but they are not in the business of making their sold cars hold value; they are in the business of selling as many new cars as possible and make profit....
I own 3 cars:
Aston martin V12 vantage roadster, ferrari 550, ferrari 456M.
I love all 3 of them, but the one with the biggest chance is the AM V12 Vantage Roadster. I bought it because I love it to death.
Only 101 built, low production number, somewhat low demand but starting to pick up so if demand increases the price will skyrocket as there are only 101 built..
The other 2 F-cars: 3083 550 maranellos built...they will NOT skyrocket. 456M had 640 units built with manual transmission. This car will also not skyrocket as it is lower in production but demand is substantially lower....
Best to buy what you love, drive them but never expect anything. IF the price goes up, great! If the price goes down, then you dont need to worry about putting on too many miles!
EIther way, we win!
McLaren demand is growing rapidly.
When I was a youngster I aspired to own a Ferrari.
Been there done that several times and still have my F355GTS manual.
From my experience today's younger generation see McLaren as the car to have above Ferrari
These guys might not have the disposable income now but when they are the exclusivity of an early low production volumes McLaren will appeal even more
When I was a youngster I aspired to own a Ferrari.
Been there done that several times and still have my F355GTS manual.
From my experience today's younger generation see McLaren as the car to have above Ferrari
These guys might not have the disposable income now but when they are the exclusivity of an early low production volumes McLaren will appeal even more
RamboLambo said:
I think you need to have vision and faith and look longer term.
As far as investing for the kids, on a 20-30 year time horizon, do you think that you will even still be able to buy petrol?More likely it'll all the hydrogen by then.
If you actually want an investment for the kids buy an acre or two of land outside a city in a developing country.
Ferruccio said:
As far as investing for the kids, on a 20-30 year time horizon, do you think that you will even still be able to buy petrol?
More likely it'll all the hydrogen by then.
If you actually want an investment for the kids buy an acre or two of land outside a city in a developing country.
Done that. Being Bangladeshi born made that possible a while ago :-) we also have properties and a pension plan. Boring investments ticked off. Happy to tak about the value of my Mclaren again in 20 years time. I do agree that cars are headed toward autonomous, electric vehicle tech...who knows what will happen but I don't believe it will be all encompassing. More likely it'll all the hydrogen by then.
If you actually want an investment for the kids buy an acre or two of land outside a city in a developing country.
£46,000 every 10 years for servicing and warranty, seems high when you figure it like that
there is no comparison between the F1 and the 12c/650s/570/etc, they simply aren't unique enough from any standpoint - the f1 has a central seating position which is a massive part of the attraction imo
there is no comparison between the F1 and the 12c/650s/570/etc, they simply aren't unique enough from any standpoint - the f1 has a central seating position which is a massive part of the attraction imo
WCZ said:
£46,000 every 10 years for servicing and warranty, seems high when you figure it like that
there is no comparison between the F1 and the 12c/650s/570/etc, they simply aren't unique enough from any standpoint - the f1 has a central seating position which is a massive part of the attraction imo
£4,600pa for a McLaren supercar seems good value to me if you compare against the depreciation and running costs of £9,700pa for a Boxster (if you changed it every 3 years). So £46k over 10 years for a McLaren 'v' £97,000 over 10 years for a new Boxster S every 3 years. What am I missing here? Its the regular car that costs more.there is no comparison between the F1 and the 12c/650s/570/etc, they simply aren't unique enough from any standpoint - the f1 has a central seating position which is a massive part of the attraction imo
I can't believe people are drawing comparisons between an F1 and an MP4/650S, preposterous.
One is an absolutely bespoke focused design from a single minded genius who did not compromise on any aspect of the car.
The other is a great car that is built in much higher numbers and is used and driven every day.
A friend of mine bought an F1 new in the 1990s and he sold the car two years later because he found it quite intimidating in the concentration and focus it demanded, no power steering, no traction control, no ABS. It was a car that was completely unique in it's single minded focus.
Let's compare a Peugeot 205T16 with a 205 Lacoste Diesel shall we..?
One is an absolutely bespoke focused design from a single minded genius who did not compromise on any aspect of the car.
The other is a great car that is built in much higher numbers and is used and driven every day.
A friend of mine bought an F1 new in the 1990s and he sold the car two years later because he found it quite intimidating in the concentration and focus it demanded, no power steering, no traction control, no ABS. It was a car that was completely unique in it's single minded focus.
Let's compare a Peugeot 205T16 with a 205 Lacoste Diesel shall we..?
Bispal said:
£4,600pa for a McLaren supercar seems good value to me if you compare against the depreciation and running costs of £9,700pa for a Boxster (if you changed it every 3 years). So £46k over 10 years for a McLaren 'v' £97,000 over 10 years for a new Boxster S every 3 years. What am I missing here? Its the regular car that costs more.
if you want to use your example of changing every 3 years then that's worse:http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/m...
£45,000 depreciation just in the first 6 months here + at least £20k to lose in the next 2 years
£65,000 depreciation + £14,000 maintenance
£79,000 in 3 years is much worse than any Boxster
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