12c trade bids
Discussion
isaldiri said:
Bispal said:
Well it was much derided car when new but they were all subsequently upgraded and none of the upgraded cars appear to have been tested. Also they are universally loved and cherished by owners. This probably means that prices are slightly depressed due to the early pre upgrade reviews.
It always surprises me how much faith people seem to place on believing the updates fundamentally changed the nature of the car. If you're looking for validation from the automotive press that the upgrades had hugely improved, you might need to look elsewhere. if they thought the 12c pre 2012 was too 'clinical', post updates they would say exactly the same thing. The 2012 update made the gearbox software work a bit smoother and increased hp slightly but it's not as if 600PS wasn't enough. The car still handled more or less exactly the same. The only real benefit was being able to turn down the cabin noise by disabling the idiotic intake sound generator Harry Metcalfe likes to claim that he singlehandedly improved the 12c from preproduction form by suggesting that to Mclaren.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bctiDeQfQZA
Bispal said:
Not sure you are entirely correct, I think there were more changes, watch the video link, which is one of the only post upgrades films and shot by Tiff who was probably one of the most critical first time around. McLaren stated "we have reworked the coupe (and spider) to be faster and more stable than before" So it didn't handle as before, the handling is different / improved.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bctiDeQfQZA
Well as I think his first review was a hatchet job and full of shttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bctiDeQfQZA
t I see no reason to think any better of his 2nd. While I don't get the Harris love in, his reviews are a bit more credible and he didn't mention very much difference between the original car he was loaned for a while and the later spider (or indeed the 650 he didn't say was hugely different in the launch drive at Ascari if I recall correctly).What I can say for what it's worth however is that my car pre and post update did not handle substantially differently. It certainly was not night and day different as 5th gear showed or 'clinical' to 'highly emotional '.
isaldiri said:
Bispal said:
Not sure you are entirely correct, I think there were more changes, watch the video link, which is one of the only post upgrades films and shot by Tiff who was probably one of the most critical first time around. McLaren stated "we have reworked the coupe (and spider) to be faster and more stable than before" So it didn't handle as before, the handling is different / improved.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bctiDeQfQZA
Well as I think his first review was a hatchet job and full of shttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bctiDeQfQZA
t I see no reason to think any better of his 2nd. While I don't get the Harris love in, his reviews are a bit more credible and he didn't mention very much difference between the original car he was loaned for a while and the later spider (or indeed the 650 he didn't say was hugely different in the launch drive at Ascari if I recall correctly).What I can say for what it's worth however is that my car pre and post update did not handle substantially differently. It certainly was not night and day different as 5th gear showed or 'clinical' to 'highly emotional '.
I agree with Bispal and doubt whether some of the so called 'expert' Journos would be able to tell the difference.
I posted on another forum that it would be an interesting experiment to put one (or even better a number) of the well know journos in a variety of 12C/650S's not knowing which they were in, or which suspension and power train settings had been set.
Let them test them 'blind' and rate how good they thought they were.
Would they all rate the 650S better?.....who knows?
Someone also commented they'd really like an Ariel Nomad and I responded that a 12C + an Ariel Nomad would definitely put a bigger smile on my face than a 650S on its own.
"You pays yer money and takes yer choice".....except if you're a journalist, then you write your copy and take yer money.
If the manufacturer likes your copy they give you more opportunity to write more copy and take more money etc.
I'm not intentionally being cynical, but in all types of business its a game that very few are big enough to not to have to obey the rules of. We all have mortgages and kids to feed and those that succeed know which side their bread's buttered and play by the rules.
I posted on another forum that it would be an interesting experiment to put one (or even better a number) of the well know journos in a variety of 12C/650S's not knowing which they were in, or which suspension and power train settings had been set.
Let them test them 'blind' and rate how good they thought they were.
Would they all rate the 650S better?.....who knows?
Someone also commented they'd really like an Ariel Nomad and I responded that a 12C + an Ariel Nomad would definitely put a bigger smile on my face than a 650S on its own.
"You pays yer money and takes yer choice".....except if you're a journalist, then you write your copy and take yer money.
If the manufacturer likes your copy they give you more opportunity to write more copy and take more money etc.
I'm not intentionally being cynical, but in all types of business its a game that very few are big enough to not to have to obey the rules of. We all have mortgages and kids to feed and those that succeed know which side their bread's buttered and play by the rules.
Hey don't put a great car down.
The value of the car does not interest me in the least, its a keeper for sure as for me there is nothing out there that is such an accomplished all rounder.
I chose it above a 458 speciale at the time because it suited my needs better. I knew the speciale would certainly hold its value better if not appreciate, as we subsequently know, but it did not make the slightest bit of difference to my decision as I just wanted to drive and enjoy the car. Yeah I could be here technically £100k better off but so what. Fortunately that's no longer life changing money for me following a family bereavement.
I did 500 miles in my 430 scuderia and whilst it was a great drive and fantastic sounding car I was too concerned about mileage and stupid things like stone chips to REALLY enjoy it fully.
Life is too short.
From what I observe, with no biased loyalty to a particular brand, McLaren is the one that currently excites me with its product.
Ferrari and Lamborghini no longer have it all their own way and you only have to look on sales via this forum to see there is tide change.
Whether its 12C or 650S the McLaren offers a terrific product that really does represent value for money as you are not paying over the top for the badge and heritage.
Yet when ever you ask anyone where does the McLaren sit against its equivalent Italian the answer I resoundly get time after time is top of the tree.
Superior product, rarity and exclusivity at a "bargain" price you would have to be mad not to
The value of the car does not interest me in the least, its a keeper for sure as for me there is nothing out there that is such an accomplished all rounder.
I chose it above a 458 speciale at the time because it suited my needs better. I knew the speciale would certainly hold its value better if not appreciate, as we subsequently know, but it did not make the slightest bit of difference to my decision as I just wanted to drive and enjoy the car. Yeah I could be here technically £100k better off but so what. Fortunately that's no longer life changing money for me following a family bereavement.
I did 500 miles in my 430 scuderia and whilst it was a great drive and fantastic sounding car I was too concerned about mileage and stupid things like stone chips to REALLY enjoy it fully.
Life is too short.
From what I observe, with no biased loyalty to a particular brand, McLaren is the one that currently excites me with its product.
Ferrari and Lamborghini no longer have it all their own way and you only have to look on sales via this forum to see there is tide change.
Whether its 12C or 650S the McLaren offers a terrific product that really does represent value for money as you are not paying over the top for the badge and heritage.
Yet when ever you ask anyone where does the McLaren sit against its equivalent Italian the answer I resoundly get time after time is top of the tree.
Superior product, rarity and exclusivity at a "bargain" price you would have to be mad not to
100 IAN said:
I agree with Bispal and doubt whether some of the so called 'expert' Journos would be able to tell the difference.
I posted on another forum that it would be an interesting experiment to put one (or even better a number) of the well know journos in a variety of 12C/650S's not knowing which they were in, or which suspension and power train settings had been set.
Let them test them 'blind' and rate how good they thought they were.
Would they all rate the 650S better?.....who knows?
The journos would rate the car that is currently in production, whichever it was, being 'better' as a result of the manufacturer providing the cars for testing I posted on another forum that it would be an interesting experiment to put one (or even better a number) of the well know journos in a variety of 12C/650S's not knowing which they were in, or which suspension and power train settings had been set.
Let them test them 'blind' and rate how good they thought they were.
Would they all rate the 650S better?.....who knows?
And with due respect I don't think yourself or bispal have driven a 650 if you can't tell the difference to a 12c, at least with both in it's 'normal' mode. Or you haven't really driven the 12c on track mode on track if you think there's little difference between sport and track. I'm a very ordinary driver and even i can tell. Sutcliffe is a pretty poor journo and I don't get the Harris love in but they are undoubtedly very good drivers and I would pretty much guarantee they could tell the difference between cars and settings.
It's a pretty common phenomenon amongst car fans to imagine that the current version of their car is no improvement over their older one. ALL cars makers improve their product constantly, they just do. Some leaps are bigger than others but any car manufacturer worth their salt evolves their product pretty much constantly.
As far as 12C/650 goes just the gear change alone would give the game away. But it's hardly night and day different.
As far as 12C/650 goes just the gear change alone would give the game away. But it's hardly night and day different.
I'm no expert
But I can notice the difference between a 12C and a 650S. It was apparent to me within 10 minutes of a back to back test drive.
The increased torque across the rev band is most noticeable, along with heavier weighted steering and feel and a much more aggressive exhaust sound.
Whilst the gear change and spread of variation in handling settings might be greater that was less noticeable to me but I only drove the cars on the road enthusiastically.
The 650S just seems a lot more alive and involving but not like a 458 special but then again its not a stripped out racer.
Whilst the 650S can outperform a Speciale a 675LT puts it to bed in all departments IMHO
But I can notice the difference between a 12C and a 650S. It was apparent to me within 10 minutes of a back to back test drive.
The increased torque across the rev band is most noticeable, along with heavier weighted steering and feel and a much more aggressive exhaust sound.
Whilst the gear change and spread of variation in handling settings might be greater that was less noticeable to me but I only drove the cars on the road enthusiastically.
The 650S just seems a lot more alive and involving but not like a 458 special but then again its not a stripped out racer.
Whilst the 650S can outperform a Speciale a 675LT puts it to bed in all departments IMHO
Edited by RamboLambo on Monday 6th June 23:56
I have just bought a Clio RS Cup 200. It's a hoot, and will be used as a learner car for myself and my sons on track days. I am very lucky to have a Suffolk C type replica which I enjoy every inch and minute as much as my 650s. I have a Boxster Spyder from 2011 which is an epic car on B roads.
My point is, I could argue that each of them is the best car ever, in their own way, and my favourite car is always the car I am driving at the time, and the context in which they are being driven. McLaren = Le Mans, C Type = Goodwood Revival etc
However, if I was forced to combine a car that I could use every day, with all the best bits of everything, then it's the McLaren. It will cover as many miles as all my other toys put together, because it suits so many situations.
My point is, I could argue that each of them is the best car ever, in their own way, and my favourite car is always the car I am driving at the time, and the context in which they are being driven. McLaren = Le Mans, C Type = Goodwood Revival etc
However, if I was forced to combine a car that I could use every day, with all the best bits of everything, then it's the McLaren. It will cover as many miles as all my other toys put together, because it suits so many situations.
baypond said:
I have just bought a Clio RS Cup 200. It's a hoot, and will be used as a learner car for myself and my sons on track days. I am very lucky to have a Suffolk C type replica which I enjoy every inch and minute as much as my 650s. I have a Boxster Spyder from 2011 which is an epic car on B roads.
My point is, I could argue that each of them is the best car ever, in their own way, and my favourite car is always the car I am driving at the time, and the context in which they are being driven. McLaren = Le Mans, C Type = Goodwood Revival etc
[b]However, if I was forced to combine a car that I could use every day, with all the best bits of everything, then it's the McLaren. It will cover as many miles as all my other toys put together, because it suits so many situations.[/b}
I have a number of supercars and some not super cars as well as a history of supercars past but without doubt the 650s spider is the most accomplished all rounder out there and so underrated.( although admittedly that is changing if sales are anything to go by )My point is, I could argue that each of them is the best car ever, in their own way, and my favourite car is always the car I am driving at the time, and the context in which they are being driven. McLaren = Le Mans, C Type = Goodwood Revival etc
[b]However, if I was forced to combine a car that I could use every day, with all the best bits of everything, then it's the McLaren. It will cover as many miles as all my other toys put together, because it suits so many situations.[/b}
In years to come we will look back and wonder why it was even a debate. The 675LT was even being held up against the legendary F1 on Top Gear
My Focus RS Mountune MR375 is fast as hell, looks mean and sounds even better and at £30k still makes me smile everytime I drive it.
A throw back to my yuff and hot hatch days I guess
I'm no driving God, by a long chalk. I drove a 12c spider and a 650S Spider back to back on the roads around Ascot at 5 or 6 10'ths; both in S/S.
There was a noticeable difference between the cars. The 12c was softer and more comfortable, the 650 felt more alert and sharper. Steering? Torque? Power? Ecu settings? All the above? No idea I'm no expert.
I would have been delighted with either car, I preferred the 650, I chose to pay more for the 650.
Enjoy your P&J whatever you choose
PS Ian I would have gone the Nomad route but can't fit in, or at least would struggle to get back out! That argument though could be applied to any two cars at different price points. A 675LT or a 650 and a GT3? A P1 or a 675LT and a 918 etc.
There was a noticeable difference between the cars. The 12c was softer and more comfortable, the 650 felt more alert and sharper. Steering? Torque? Power? Ecu settings? All the above? No idea I'm no expert.
I would have been delighted with either car, I preferred the 650, I chose to pay more for the 650.
Enjoy your P&J whatever you choose
PS Ian I would have gone the Nomad route but can't fit in, or at least would struggle to get back out! That argument though could be applied to any two cars at different price points. A 675LT or a 650 and a GT3? A P1 or a 675LT and a 918 etc.
Boshly said:
I'm no driving God, by a long chalk. I drove a 12c spider and a 650S Spider back to back on the roads around Ascot at 5 or 6 10'ths; both in S/S.
There was a noticeable difference between the cars. The 12c was softer and more comfortable, the 650 felt more alert and sharper. Steering? Torque? Power? Ecu settings? All the above? No idea I'm no expert.
I would have been delighted with either car, I preferred the 650, I chose to pay more for the 650.
Enjoy your P&J whatever you choose
PS Ian I would have gone the Nomad route but can't fit in, or at least would struggle to get back out! That argument though could be applied to any two cars at different price points. A 675LT or a 650 and a GT3? A P1 or a 675LT and a 918 etc.
Controversial maybe but I would choose 650S and a Porsche GT3 Over just the 675 LTThere was a noticeable difference between the cars. The 12c was softer and more comfortable, the 650 felt more alert and sharper. Steering? Torque? Power? Ecu settings? All the above? No idea I'm no expert.
I would have been delighted with either car, I preferred the 650, I chose to pay more for the 650.
Enjoy your P&J whatever you choose
PS Ian I would have gone the Nomad route but can't fit in, or at least would struggle to get back out! That argument though could be applied to any two cars at different price points. A 675LT or a 650 and a GT3? A P1 or a 675LT and a 918 etc.
Boshly said:
I'm no driving God, by a long chalk. I drove a 12c spider and a 650S Spider back to back on the roads around Ascot at 5 or 6 10'ths; both in S/S.
There was a noticeable difference between the cars. The 12c was softer and more comfortable, the 650 felt more alert and sharper. Steering? Torque? Power? Ecu settings? All the above? No idea I'm no expert.
I would have been delighted with either car, I preferred the 650, I chose to pay more for the 650.
Interesting, through a loose association with McLaren Dubai I have been able to drive quite a number of 12c and 650 models, both coupe and cabrio.There was a noticeable difference between the cars. The 12c was softer and more comfortable, the 650 felt more alert and sharper. Steering? Torque? Power? Ecu settings? All the above? No idea I'm no expert.
I would have been delighted with either car, I preferred the 650, I chose to pay more for the 650.
All for varying lengths of time, with the most seat time being in a 2013 12c Spider and a 2014 650s
My personal favourite has always been the 12c, and it's one of those that my current 360 will eventually be replaced by.
I just wish I still lived in Dubai where a 12c can now be bought for 65k or so
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