Track Day usage ?
Discussion
I've been lucky enough to drive a friends 540 over some fabulous Wiltshire roads on two occasions now, I'm amazed at how fast, agile, tactile and just plain beautiful the car is, particularly compared to my Cayman GT4. Obviously the Cayman is roughly half the price, but the 540 feels so superior, I'm really tempted to sell some other stuff and move up to a McLaren.
My question is, how would the McLaren stand up to my fairly extreme Track Day schedule, the Cayman GT4 is just eighteen months old and has been used by me on thirty-four Track Days, it's run faultlessly, I've altered some suspension components to mitigate tyre wear, and I've had very regular oil changes, I've also used three pairs of (steel ) front brake rotors and this week installed its first new pairs of rear rotors, and numerous sets of Pagid RS29 pads.
Does anyone have any similar usage experience with a McLaren of any model, and can anyone confirm or otherwise the need to take the McLaren to an Official Dealer, before and again after each Track Day to keep the warranty, as this in particular would be wholly unacceptable in my busy track schedule ?
My thanks .
My question is, how would the McLaren stand up to my fairly extreme Track Day schedule, the Cayman GT4 is just eighteen months old and has been used by me on thirty-four Track Days, it's run faultlessly, I've altered some suspension components to mitigate tyre wear, and I've had very regular oil changes, I've also used three pairs of (steel ) front brake rotors and this week installed its first new pairs of rear rotors, and numerous sets of Pagid RS29 pads.
Does anyone have any similar usage experience with a McLaren of any model, and can anyone confirm or otherwise the need to take the McLaren to an Official Dealer, before and again after each Track Day to keep the warranty, as this in particular would be wholly unacceptable in my busy track schedule ?
My thanks .
If you remember me from the goldtrack days last year (I had the silver gt4 one day and came the next time in my black 12c), perhaps I can help with some answers
I've done probably 25 trackdays in the last 2 and a bit years in the 12c. not quite as many as you but I do try my best
As much as I like the car, I'm not sure I would ever recommend it as a heavy duty track car for the kind of use you've put on the gt4 it has to be said and only partially from a cost point of view. Tyre costs are surprisingly reasonable if on Michelins. The 12c has proven much better at keeping the Cup2s in shape (especially fronts) than the gt4 for example. However, the car is going to be much harder on brakes with a lot more power and that's even with pagid pads which last probably 3x that of the OEM ones and you seriously do not ever want to be using a ceramic equipped Mclaren on track heavily unless you like buying brembo rotors... last but not least, the car does burn a stunning amount of fuel on track (~4mpg) and I've paid probably the same in fuel as one of the goldtrack summer days before. And I'm pretty certain the Mclaren tax for fluid changes is a good bit more than Porsche!
With respect to reliability, it's somewhat car dependent, some are very very good, others less so. K4C3Y here (not sure if you know him) has done a hell of a lot of track miles on his car, way more than me and Mclaren Ascot has said his car is probably amongst the very best condition ones they have had in so it's not a given they are necessarily troublesome if tracked a lot. I have 34k miles on my car, another friend had 33k before he sold his for a 675 last year - both are 2011 cars and (touch wood) I've only had a lambda sensor and a secondary air pump replaced under warranty (car fully driveable both times) and my friend hardly had any issues once the early electrical problems were sorted 6 mths after the car was released. However as a turbo car, on very warm ambient temperatures, the car can overheat when tracked very heavily and also it's a much more complicated car with lots of things to go wrong with sensors etc than something like the 997 gt3 or gt4 and some cars have had constant issues as well it has to be said.
About the inspections, I'd say you have to do some but probably not religiously having to do every single pre and post inspection after each trackday, and it really helps having the service manager on your side. I never did any pre inspections but did the post inspections every couple of trackdays (say 3-4) when I was due for an oil change anyway.
As a road car with occasional track use I think the Mclarens (pretty much all of them whether 540/570/12c/650) are pretty hard to beat. As a specialist track car perhaps less so.
I've done probably 25 trackdays in the last 2 and a bit years in the 12c. not quite as many as you but I do try my best
As much as I like the car, I'm not sure I would ever recommend it as a heavy duty track car for the kind of use you've put on the gt4 it has to be said and only partially from a cost point of view. Tyre costs are surprisingly reasonable if on Michelins. The 12c has proven much better at keeping the Cup2s in shape (especially fronts) than the gt4 for example. However, the car is going to be much harder on brakes with a lot more power and that's even with pagid pads which last probably 3x that of the OEM ones and you seriously do not ever want to be using a ceramic equipped Mclaren on track heavily unless you like buying brembo rotors... last but not least, the car does burn a stunning amount of fuel on track (~4mpg) and I've paid probably the same in fuel as one of the goldtrack summer days before. And I'm pretty certain the Mclaren tax for fluid changes is a good bit more than Porsche!
With respect to reliability, it's somewhat car dependent, some are very very good, others less so. K4C3Y here (not sure if you know him) has done a hell of a lot of track miles on his car, way more than me and Mclaren Ascot has said his car is probably amongst the very best condition ones they have had in so it's not a given they are necessarily troublesome if tracked a lot. I have 34k miles on my car, another friend had 33k before he sold his for a 675 last year - both are 2011 cars and (touch wood) I've only had a lambda sensor and a secondary air pump replaced under warranty (car fully driveable both times) and my friend hardly had any issues once the early electrical problems were sorted 6 mths after the car was released. However as a turbo car, on very warm ambient temperatures, the car can overheat when tracked very heavily and also it's a much more complicated car with lots of things to go wrong with sensors etc than something like the 997 gt3 or gt4 and some cars have had constant issues as well it has to be said.
About the inspections, I'd say you have to do some but probably not religiously having to do every single pre and post inspection after each trackday, and it really helps having the service manager on your side. I never did any pre inspections but did the post inspections every couple of trackdays (say 3-4) when I was due for an oil change anyway.
As a road car with occasional track use I think the Mclarens (pretty much all of them whether 540/570/12c/650) are pretty hard to beat. As a specialist track car perhaps less so.
Edited by isaldiri on Friday 17th February 23:53
I know of one owner who tracked his 650 pretty much every other weekend, including in a race series. He never had any reported problems, only consumables. He kept to the pre and post trackday inspection cycle also to maintain the warranty. So, it can be done and, deciding whether it's right for you, depends upon your budget and what you want to get out of the car.
ravon said:
I've been lucky enough to drive a friends 540 over some fabulous Wiltshire roads on two occasions now, I'm amazed at how fast, agile, tactile and just plain beautiful the car is, particularly compared to my Cayman GT4. Obviously the Cayman is roughly half the price, but the 540 feels so superior, I'm really tempted to sell some other stuff and move up to a McLaren.
My question is, how would the McLaren stand up to my fairly extreme Track Day schedule, the Cayman GT4 is just eighteen months old and has been used by me on thirty-four Track Days, it's run faultlessly, I've altered some suspension components to mitigate tyre wear, and I've had very regular oil changes, I've also used three pairs of (steel ) front brake rotors and this week installed its first new pairs of rear rotors, and numerous sets of Pagid RS29 pads.
Does anyone have any similar usage experience with a McLaren of any model, and can anyone confirm or otherwise the need to take the McLaren to an Official Dealer, before and again after each Track Day to keep the warranty, as this in particular would be wholly unacceptable in my busy track schedule ?
My thanks .
Nice usage. May I know what has been done on suspension? I am leaning on RSS tarmac series full kit and getting a track alignment.My question is, how would the McLaren stand up to my fairly extreme Track Day schedule, the Cayman GT4 is just eighteen months old and has been used by me on thirty-four Track Days, it's run faultlessly, I've altered some suspension components to mitigate tyre wear, and I've had very regular oil changes, I've also used three pairs of (steel ) front brake rotors and this week installed its first new pairs of rear rotors, and numerous sets of Pagid RS29 pads.
Does anyone have any similar usage experience with a McLaren of any model, and can anyone confirm or otherwise the need to take the McLaren to an Official Dealer, before and again after each Track Day to keep the warranty, as this in particular would be wholly unacceptable in my busy track schedule ?
My thanks .
Given your track usage, I don't think tracking any Mac is going to be cheap. I'd rather go 991.1 Gt3 with a G series engine if you feel like paddles.
Firstly, thank you very much for the answers and input to my questions regarding track day use for a McLaren. I think I'll stay where I am for the time being, but think the 540 is absolutely amazing, and really moves the performance road car stakes upward by some margin.
There is plenty about what is required to improve the tire consumption issue of the GT4 on all the Porsche Forums, I would recommend a call to Chris at Centre Gravity for advice.
There is plenty about what is required to improve the tire consumption issue of the GT4 on all the Porsche Forums, I would recommend a call to Chris at Centre Gravity for advice.
TrackTwit said:
If using the CCBs on track they have similar wear properties to chocolate.
Just not true - the CCB's are the same make as used on many other supercars - they *will* wear if you let pads get low, advice seems to be (like any racecar) do not let the pads get below half warn as temperatures then increase and degraded pads result in much much faster CCB wear. But going back to original question - they do cost a lot more than steel rotors (it was an option on 12C/650 to have them) - which for the track makes a lot more sense.
And for the person who says the cars are not reliable for Track usage, the reality is McLaren owners are 10x more likely to be on track vs Ferrari/Lambo's - in last 12 months I have seen many more McLaren's on track being hammered - and I have not heard of any recurring faults.
NickOrangeCars said:
Just not true - the CCB's are the same make as used on many other supercars - they *will* wear if you let pads get low, advice seems to be (like any racecar) do not let the pads get below half warn as temperatures then increase and degraded pads result in much much faster CCB wear.
The brembo ceramic setup is used quite widely but it always wears badly on track. If you're reasonably quick I doubt the Mclaren ceramic rotors will hold up to much more than 6 trackdays of say 200 miles each. Particularly the rears.NickOrangeCars said:
Just not true - the CCB's are the same make as used on many other supercars - they *will* wear if you let pads get low, advice seems to be (like any racecar) do not let the pads get below half warn as temperatures then increase and degraded pads result in much much faster CCB wear.
But going back to original question - they do cost a lot more than steel rotors (it was an option on 12C/650 to have them) - which for the track makes a lot more sense.
And for the person who says the cars are not reliable for Track usage, the reality is McLaren owners are 10x more likely to be on track vs Ferrari/Lambo's - in last 12 months I have seen many more McLaren's on track being hammered - and I have not heard of any recurring faults.
Totally 100% true, they are not fit for purpose on a track biased car.But going back to original question - they do cost a lot more than steel rotors (it was an option on 12C/650 to have them) - which for the track makes a lot more sense.
And for the person who says the cars are not reliable for Track usage, the reality is McLaren owners are 10x more likely to be on track vs Ferrari/Lambo's - in last 12 months I have seen many more McLaren's on track being hammered - and I have not heard of any recurring faults.
koorby said:
Ok I am officially confused. The 570S is the more track-focused car yet it comes with CCB's as standard, which according to a few people here are inferior to steel brakes and not suited to heavy track day use.
Well ceramics are inferior and not suited to a lot of track use in the sense it costs a lot more..... nothing to do with performance where in theory there will always be a slight benefit from the lower weight.Having done a lot of trackwork and racing over the years, I don;t think I would really want to use either a GT4 or a Mac for that number of trackdays. A good 2nd hand race car would cope with the punishment much better and more than likely be a quicker car on track. Ie Juno VdeV car, very strong and a brilliant drive, normally the fastest car on track.
koorby said:
Ok I am officially confused. The 570S is the more track-focused car yet it comes with CCB's as standard, which according to a few people here are inferior to steel brakes and not suited to heavy track day use.
I think I can help explain.The main benefits of ceramic brakes over steel:
1) Lower unsprung weight helps handling. I expect most drivers could tell the difference, but not that many would have the skill to exploit this that much. Probably only really significant if you are a driving god.
2) Provided the the ceramics are newish - over 50% life - they would probably stop the car easier than steel discs and resist heat fade. However tyres are likely to be the limiting factor on braking distance and steel discs are usually good enough. So some advantage on track. If you allow the ceramics to wear <50% their thermal mass is a lot lower so they can get heat saturated easier and then they start to wear faster and ultimately will fade in heavy track use. So you need to replace them in hammering them hard. In general road use they will last the life of the car. If you track occasionally then it depends, they probably last quite a long time.
3) They don't produce metallic brake dust that needs periodic cleaning from alloy wheels. Not an advantage for track use, but an advantage in general ownership. But you still need to clean other crap off your car periodically and clean your wheels anyway.
Disadvantages of ceramic:
1) Cost
2) Brittle so potential crack damage from stones etc if super unlucky
3) Arguably less brake pedal feel - but manufacturers have made big advances to reduce the difference to steel.
4) Can squeal in use. Again, less of an issue with the latest ceramic brakes.
The reason that track hounds generally prefer steel discs is that their wear on discs and pads - ceramic or steel - is very high and the running costs of steel allow them to replace to fresh steel discs more frequently without breaking the bank. If you you track a lot and you can afford to replace ceramic brakes frequently then they are superior to steel. Knock yourself out and get them.
SimonOcean said:
2) Provided the the ceramics are newish - over 50% life - they would probably stop the car easier than steel discs and resist heat fade. However tyres are likely to be the limiting factor on braking distance and steel discs are usually good enough. So some advantage on track. If you allow the ceramics to wear <50% their thermal mass is a lot lower so they can get heat saturated easier and then they start to wear faster and ultimately will fade in heavy track use. So you need to replace them in hammering them hard. In general road use they will last the life of the car. If you track occasionally then it depends, they probably last quite a long time.
If you you track a lot and you can afford to replace ceramic brakes frequently then they are superior to steel. Knock yourself out and get them.
Disagree. Ceramic brakes do not offer better absolute braking performance. Once you go outside the OEM pad the non ceramic pad can offer considerably more friction/bite if required but ultimately the cars are tyre limited in braking performance. If you you track a lot and you can afford to replace ceramic brakes frequently then they are superior to steel. Knock yourself out and get them.
There is some unsprung weight benefit but the difference (at least on the 12c as I have no idea about the brake sizes on the 540 vs 570) is not so great.
McLaren have today announced their New Pure McLaren Track days on European circuits for owners and customers where I am sure any misgivings about tracking the cars will be proved or disproved. ( well, I received an email)
Search Pure McLaren 2017 and there is a full brochure on how what when and where.
If I could understand how to post the link.. http://cars.mclaren.com/home/experiences/pure-mcla...
Search Pure McLaren 2017 and there is a full brochure on how what when and where.
If I could understand how to post the link.. http://cars.mclaren.com/home/experiences/pure-mcla...
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