Discussion
Shazbat said:
LT now redundant and plummeting prices are in part reflecting this.
The problem with the rate of progression these days is the next gen vanilla model always murders the outgoing uber-LE on all counts ... comfort, usability, straight line speed, circuit performance. The 720 just will do everything better.
Now if you have a collectable brand like Ferrari or Porsche that doesn't matter so much. Just look at prices of say 599 GTO or 997 3.8 RS. But Mclaren aren't there yet, too high risk and not enough accumulated heritage and desirability.
I dont think that the 720 will do that much better residual wise. The looks appear to be very divisive, and already there is around 400 First Editions ready to come on to the market, i think by the end of the year you will be able to pick one up for a discount. McLaren need to sell loads of these to keep the factory going. And its a coupe not a spider - the 650s was 90% spider from the off. The problem with the rate of progression these days is the next gen vanilla model always murders the outgoing uber-LE on all counts ... comfort, usability, straight line speed, circuit performance. The 720 just will do everything better.
Now if you have a collectable brand like Ferrari or Porsche that doesn't matter so much. Just look at prices of say 599 GTO or 997 3.8 RS. But Mclaren aren't there yet, too high risk and not enough accumulated heritage and desirability.
There is simply too much choice and too many models all hitting the market - Aston DB11 (there is already 30 of them in the classifieds!)
If even the mighty 675LT is now selling for list, the 720s with all those expensive options, will soon be at a substantial discount.
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
With respect - so they f
king should be !
These are cars after all not cherished unobtanium hand crafted one offs, but carefully marketed, supply strangled, economically managed cars.
Promises from salesmen to 'excellent residuals' are to flatter and placate potential wallet whacking purchases.
Whilst the BHP of 'mere sporstcars' versus the the supercars of yester-year have zoomed straight past - so have the prices.
These cars listed above are quarter of a million now. That's a whole bunch of beans. A £ growth far greater than the performance growth.
And on that note the transgression from one model (branch for a monkey) to another is fairly insusceptible by the average driver on the 'roads'.
It's as much a bubble as the crazy growth in price in the chosen cars of the last decade (V12 fez's, 355's, 997GT3's) There is more money than cars available
Spot on.king should be ! These are cars after all not cherished unobtanium hand crafted one offs, but carefully marketed, supply strangled, economically managed cars.
Promises from salesmen to 'excellent residuals' are to flatter and placate potential wallet whacking purchases.
Whilst the BHP of 'mere sporstcars' versus the the supercars of yester-year have zoomed straight past - so have the prices.
These cars listed above are quarter of a million now. That's a whole bunch of beans. A £ growth far greater than the performance growth.
And on that note the transgression from one model (branch for a monkey) to another is fairly insusceptible by the average driver on the 'roads'.
It's as much a bubble as the crazy growth in price in the chosen cars of the last decade (V12 fez's, 355's, 997GT3's) There is more money than cars available
Not so long ago, £250k was Hypercar money (F40, Carrera GT), now it barely buys the 2017 equivalent of the 328 and 348...Too much cheap finance and money.
In 2010 when the 12c was first announced, Autocar broke the news with something along the lines of "the new £150k McLaren". Strange how a year later the early adopters were paying £200k for it with all the carbon bits - and we were still in the Great Recession then!
Edited by TP321 on Tuesday 28th March 22:55
TP321 said:
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
With respect - so they fking should be !
These are cars after all not cherished unobtanium hand crafted one offs, but carefully marketed, supply strangled, economically managed cars.
Promises from salesmen to 'excellent residuals' are to flatter and placate potential wallet whacking purchases.
Whilst the BHP of 'mere sporstcars' versus the the supercars of yester-year have zoomed straight past - so have the prices.
These cars listed above are quarter of a million now. That's a whole bunch of beans. A £ growth far greater than the performance growth.
And on that note the transgression from one model (branch for a monkey) to another is fairly insusceptible by the average driver on the 'roads'.
It's as much a bubble as the crazy growth in price in the chosen cars of the last decade (V12 fez's, 355's, 997GT3's) There is more money than cars available
Spot on.king should be ! These are cars after all not cherished unobtanium hand crafted one offs, but carefully marketed, supply strangled, economically managed cars.
Promises from salesmen to 'excellent residuals' are to flatter and placate potential wallet whacking purchases.
Whilst the BHP of 'mere sporstcars' versus the the supercars of yester-year have zoomed straight past - so have the prices.
These cars listed above are quarter of a million now. That's a whole bunch of beans. A £ growth far greater than the performance growth.
And on that note the transgression from one model (branch for a monkey) to another is fairly insusceptible by the average driver on the 'roads'.
It's as much a bubble as the crazy growth in price in the chosen cars of the last decade (V12 fez's, 355's, 997GT3's) There is more money than cars available
Not so long ago, £250k was Hypercar money (F40, Carrera GT), now it barely buys the 2017 equivalent of the 328 and 348...Too much cheap finance and money.
In 2010 when the 12c was first announced, Autocar broke the news with something along the lines of "the new £150k McLaren". Strange how a year later the early adopters were paying £200k for it with all the carbon bits - and we were still in the Great Recession then!
Edited by TP321 on Tuesday 28th March 22:55
Sarnie said:
WCZ said:
I used 'dropping so much' because they used to trade nearer £400k so that's a hefty drop, irrespective of list price.
Not really because this car would never have traded near to £400k.....have any actually trader at £400k??I'm afraid it's a PH trait, one car come in a bit cheaper and the market crash is the next fake news!
sone said:
I think the LT will remain as the Speciale is to the 458 and the 720 LT will be the car to put the 675 maybe in the shade. However I reckon the 675 LT will be sort after for some time. Which is a shame really as most will become garage queens!
I'd tend to agree with this - isn't it the same situation as the 488 to the 458 Speciale? I haven't seen Speciale prices dropping significantly. I'd have the LT over the 720 on looks alone (if I could afford either) 
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
Yet cars were bought as cars, not unobtanium savings
What?Not sure how old you are but that's not how I remember it.
Supercars and classics have always been bought by certain people looking for an investment.
In the 80's banks were buying Ferrari's as part of investment portfolios. A dealer I know got caught holding a lot of stock during the '87 crash and was ruined. He offered me a low mile one owner Ferrari 308 for £8k when he was liquidating his assets. I still kick myself for not buying it.
It's always gone on - it's just been turbo charged by the internet, cheap finance and huge new markets.
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
Ok Fair point and true.....
I'm old enough to remember Charlie Babbit
I guess that I feel those were actual commodities back in the day, and my beef is that 'Owners' now believe the hype the unobtainable aspect that they should be able to own a car run it and make money on it.
True. And I totally share your beef (if I can say that?)I'm old enough to remember Charlie Babbit
I guess that I feel those were actual commodities back in the day, and my beef is that 'Owners' now believe the hype the unobtainable aspect that they should be able to own a car run it and make money on it.
isaldiri said:
Assumption yes. Strange - perhaps, but with all due respect I think i have a more experience of how the Mclaren range (ex P1) has evolved over the years and how they drive with different options and it's a considered guess about what the 720 will be like.
Another rather definite assumption. what makes you better qualified than me? We know each other?Edited by isaldiri on Tuesday 28th March 22:02
woppum said:
Another rather definite assumption. what makes you better qualified than me? We know each other?
Well, I've driven the car that the 720 is replacing a fair amount (couple of ten thousand miles) and for a long time, both in 12c form and 650, and also on the 12c both with and without bucket seats. And also have had a brief go in their latest cars, 675/570 so it's pretty obvious to me the direction Mclaren are bringing their cars compared to previous.I'm interested to know how much experience you have of the Mclaren cars that make you so confident that I am wrong that the 720 in similar spec to the 675 will not be pretty similar to drive.
isaldiri said:
A similarly outfitted 720 (bucket seats, trofeo tyres) will imo be very close in driving experience to a 675.
I've had a 720S prototype for 4 days and when they collected it from me it had 800 miles and 18+ hours more on the clock. I also own an MSO HS and 675LT Spider and previously owned a 675LT Coupe. The 720S and the 675LT are very different driving experiences. If they weren't it would make my life a lot easier because I could sell my 675LT and be happy with just the 720S. But they're not so I'm going to keep my 675LT and add a 720S. Edited by MarkNC on Saturday 1st April 19:55
Shazbat said:
LT now redundant and plummeting prices are in part reflecting this.
The problem with the rate of progression these days is the next gen vanilla model always murders the outgoing uber-LE on all counts ... comfort, useability, straight line speed, circuit performance. The 720 just will do everything better.
Now if you have a collectable brand like Ferrari or Porsche that dosn't matter so much. Just look at prices of say 599 GTO or 997 3.8 RS. But Mclaren aren't there yet, too high risk and not enough accumulated heritage and desirability.
I disagree with the assertion that the "LT is now redundant". I wish it were because then I could sell my LT and use the money to pay for the 720S instead of adding a 720S to my garage which is what I'm doing. I suspect all the LTs in the market will get snapped up by enthusiasts and when inventory of them dries up the prices will start creeping up again. The very first car I hopped in after they took the 720S away was my 675LT Spider. It felt charmingly old school, raw and wonderful in a way that made me feel I absolutely had to have both. I was so hoping it WOULD feel redundant to make my purchase decision clear and save me some money but that's just not the case. If you can afford to have both then they're both must-have cars and rather complimentary - especially if the 675LT is a Spider. Like those classic Ferraris and Porsches you mentioned, I have zero doubt the 675LT will be universally loved for a very, very, very long time even long after the LT version of the 720S hits the market. The problem with the rate of progression these days is the next gen vanilla model always murders the outgoing uber-LE on all counts ... comfort, useability, straight line speed, circuit performance. The 720 just will do everything better.
Now if you have a collectable brand like Ferrari or Porsche that dosn't matter so much. Just look at prices of say 599 GTO or 997 3.8 RS. But Mclaren aren't there yet, too high risk and not enough accumulated heritage and desirability.
Plus I also think the 720S will raise McLaren's profile considerably. It is so incredibly wonderful to drive and so functional, visceral and versatile that it is going to get insanely great reviews which will build on the great reviews 570S, 570GT and 675LT have received. McLaren is going from strength to strength. They won't become Ferrari overnight but I think they'll ascend to a closer level very quickly now that their product lines are being sorted out and have the right amount of breathing room between them.
Edited by MarkNC on Saturday 1st April 19:58
MarkNC said:
That's not true. I've had a 720S prototype for 4 days and when they collected it from me it had 800 miles and 18+ hours more on the clock. I also own an MSO HS and 675LT Spider and previously owned a 675LT Coupe. The 720S and the 675LT are very different driving experiences. If they weren't it would make my life a lot easier because I could sell my 675LT and be happy with just the 720S. But they're not so I'm going to keep my 675LT and add a 720S.
More details on the 720 driving experience, please. Ride quality, power delivery, straightline performance, handling....isaldiri said:
Well, I've driven the car that the 720 is replacing a fair amount (couple of ten thousand miles) and for a long time, both in 12c form and 650, and also on the 12c both with and without bucket seats. And also have had a brief go in their latest cars, 675/570 so it's pretty obvious to me the direction Mclaren are bringing their cars compared to previous.
I'm interested to know how much experience you have of the Mclaren cars that make you so confident that I am wrong that the 720 in similar spec to the 675 will not be pretty similar to drive.
I've owned 8 McLaren's (past cars: 12C Spider, 12C Spider, 650S Spider, 675LT Coupe) and currently own 4 McLaren's (P1, 570S, MSO HS, 675LT Spider) and I've driven the 720S quite extensively now (18 hours worth over 4 days and about 800 miles with the head of McLaren product development in the passenger seat for about half of that.I'm interested to know how much experience you have of the Mclaren cars that make you so confident that I am wrong that the 720 in similar spec to the 675 will not be pretty similar to drive.
In my opinion the 720S is very much the product of all the cars that came before it with a lot of new thinking applied as well. So it improves in many of the ways the 675LT improved over the 12C/650S - better steering, better suspension, more performance, louder sound. But it doesn't have any of the compromises that the 675LT had to make it more track focused than 650S - overly wide turning ratio, plastic rear window in the coupe obstructing reducing rearward visibility, the wing obstructing rearward visibility in aero mode and nose being so low you have to use the lifter more - it doesn't. Likewise the 720S also improves in the ways the 570S/GT improved on the 12C/650S - more stylized interior, less bulky seats, more road feel, better steering, more internal storage, digital dash. But then the 720S veers off an improves in on the formula some more: whole new driving interface (way better than IRIS), even better engine sound, more road feel while also having a more compliant suspension, even quicker steering, much smarter gear changes, class-leading outward visibility (even in aero mode!), a nicer interior, a very useful folding dash and new base tires that have Trofeo-like grip but P-Zero-like tread.
But if you think putting race seats in a 650S make it feel like a 675LT then maybe part of that has to do with how similar the interiors of the cars are. But to me the 675LT feels charmingly more raw and old-school compared to the digital dash, elegant roomier interior, smoother ride and different-sounding exhaust of the 720S. I didn't find them at all similar even though the one I drove back to back with 720S was my more luxurious 675LT Spider with leather interior and seats.
Edited by MarkNC on Saturday 1st April 20:30
MarkNC said:
Well you are dead wrong. You've had a brief go? Here's my experience: I've owned 8 McLaren's (past cars: 12C Spider, 12C Spider, 650S Spider, 675LT Coupe) and currently own 4 McLaren's (P1, 570S, MSO HS, 675LT Spider) and I've driven the 720S quite extensively now (18 hours worth over 4 days and about 800 miles with the head of McLaren product development in the passenger seat for about half of that, so not just "a brief go").
Edit: Quoted the wrong chap...I am simply surprised you can be so confident a 720 will drive just like a 675 if it has bucket seats. Mine will be used as a daily. This is be a very comfortable car. The 675 isn't and the P1 is really harsh. The 650 although being able to track like a roller skate is very supple. So will this, but personally hope is has some of the life and soul of the 570 too.
I have a fair bit of experience with mac yes...
Edited by woppum on Friday 31st March 23:53
MarkNC said:
Well you are dead wrong. You've had a brief go? Here's my experience: I've owned 8 McLaren's (past cars: 12C Spider, 12C Spider, 650S Spider, 675LT Coupe) and currently own 4 McLaren's (P1, 570S, MSO HS, 675LT Spider) and I've driven the 720S quite extensively now (18 hours worth over 4 days and about 800 miles with the head of McLaren product development in the passenger seat for about half of that, so not just "a brief go").
Well fair enough, not everyone is lucky enough to have a go in a 720 yet. IMO the 650 with bucket seats and trofeos is a car that is almost as quick as a 675 and far closer in feel than you suggest. Or it feels that way to me at least anyway in the aspects of driving I care about, you might and clearly do feel differently about it.
WDISMYL said:
To be fair are many of the cars priced above £175k moving?
Same bunch of Aventadors , 458, 488, 650s, 675LT have been listed for well over 6 months.
http://www.alastairbols.com/cars/c6a320/cars-for-s...
This has just popped up - see how long that hangs around - seems well priced?
Deposit taken. Good to see AB still going strong, lovely car.Same bunch of Aventadors , 458, 488, 650s, 675LT have been listed for well over 6 months.
http://www.alastairbols.com/cars/c6a320/cars-for-s...
This has just popped up - see how long that hangs around - seems well priced?
isaldiri said:
IMO the 650 with bucket seats and trofeos is a car that is almost as quick as a 675 and far closer in feel than you suggest. Or it feels that way to me at least anyway in the aspects of driving I care about, you might and clearly do feel differently about it.
Obviously one is based on the other but I think the changes they made really improve some aspects of the car well beyond what you could get just with seats and tires. I turned in my 650S Spider with over 9,300 miles on it and I've got thousands of miles the three 675LT variants (sold the coupe with 2,200 miles) I've owned. Between all those cars I have lots of track days.
I feel there's a lot more to the 675LT than simply new seats and tires. The throttle response is noticeably different than 650S. The steering feel is noticeably different from 650S. The suspension is noticeably different than 650S. The sound and vibrations are noticeably different from 650S. The ride quality is noticeably different from 650S. The steering rack speed is noticeably different from 650S. The turning ratio is noticeably different from 650S. The downforce (more importantly stability) is noticeably different than 650S and the overall performance is noticeably different than 650S.
I currently have two 675LT variants. One of them, the 675LT Spider has the same beautiful semi-aniline leather interior, with heated electric seats, as my 650S did. The difference between that car and the 650S Spider it replaced are still quite noticable. It's feels like much better handling car and it's much faster. That has nothing to do with the tires. I have two sets of wheels for my P1, one with Trofeos and one with Corsas and I swap between them. Trofeos bring more grip on the track but their main advantage, as far as I can tell, is they handle heat and pressure much better and go more laps without losing their composure. On the road there's a slight difference but only if you can get them warm enough and I find that in the cold they're less grippy than the Corsas and even worse in the cold & wet.
Edited by MarkNC on Saturday 1st April 20:05
MarkNC said:
No it isn't! Not even close!
I don't know what aspects of driving you care about but it doesn't seem all that related to the actual driving. I have no idea how much time you've actually spent driving these cars. I turned in my 650S Spider with over 9,300 miles on it and I've got thousands of miles the three 675LT variants (sold the coupe with 2,200 miles) I've owned. Between all those cars I have lots of track days.
What you're saying is just plain incorrect. There's a lot more to the 675LT than simply new seats and tires. The throttle response is noticeably different than 650S. The steering feel is noticeably different from 650S. The suspension is noticeably different than 650S. The sound and vibrations are noticeably different from 650S. The ride quality is noticeably different from 650S. The steering rack speed is noticeably different from 650S. The turning ratio is noticeably different from 650S. The downforce (more importantly stability) is noticeably different than 650S and the overall performance is noticeably different than 650S.
I currently have two 675LT variants. One of them, the 675LT Spider has the same beautiful semi-aniline leather interior, with heated electric seats, as my 650S did. The difference between THAT car and the 650S Spider it replaced are HUGE. It's feels like a whole different car and it's WAY faster. That has nothing to do with the tires. I have two sets of wheels for my P1, one with Trofeos and one with Corsas and I swap between them so I'm pretty sure I know what comes from the tires and what doesn't.
Gosh I hate being the beat-down guy and I feel like a jerk rubbing my cars in your face but I also hate people spreading false information about cars I care deeply about and know quite a bit about.
Enjoyed that. Interesting you use 2 sets of wheels with the P1. I just use the Trofeos. Brilliant in the dry and a challenge in the wet. On track they are sublime but don't last long! I'm possibly doing a 5 day trip through Europe in May, I will probably put the corsa's on for that.I don't know what aspects of driving you care about but it doesn't seem all that related to the actual driving. I have no idea how much time you've actually spent driving these cars. I turned in my 650S Spider with over 9,300 miles on it and I've got thousands of miles the three 675LT variants (sold the coupe with 2,200 miles) I've owned. Between all those cars I have lots of track days.
What you're saying is just plain incorrect. There's a lot more to the 675LT than simply new seats and tires. The throttle response is noticeably different than 650S. The steering feel is noticeably different from 650S. The suspension is noticeably different than 650S. The sound and vibrations are noticeably different from 650S. The ride quality is noticeably different from 650S. The steering rack speed is noticeably different from 650S. The turning ratio is noticeably different from 650S. The downforce (more importantly stability) is noticeably different than 650S and the overall performance is noticeably different than 650S.
I currently have two 675LT variants. One of them, the 675LT Spider has the same beautiful semi-aniline leather interior, with heated electric seats, as my 650S did. The difference between THAT car and the 650S Spider it replaced are HUGE. It's feels like a whole different car and it's WAY faster. That has nothing to do with the tires. I have two sets of wheels for my P1, one with Trofeos and one with Corsas and I swap between them so I'm pretty sure I know what comes from the tires and what doesn't.
Gosh I hate being the beat-down guy and I feel like a jerk rubbing my cars in your face but I also hate people spreading false information about cars I care deeply about and know quite a bit about.
Re 720s I'm sure you can't say too much. Is it as good as I hope it is?
Edited by woppum on Friday 31st March 23:56
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