Mumtalakat to take over McLaren
Discussion
garystoybox said:
Frankychops said:
A sports car is not defined by the enigne, the best cars aren't.
I thought the same, even with both my 458’s. Other ‘attributes’ that were as equally important to its greatness.Then I bought a V12 Ferrari and realised just how overwhelmingly intoxicating the engine was. 4 years later, it still blows me away every trip and dominates the experience.
Nice to hear a reasonably intelligent discourse on people’s preferences off topic in this thread.
Not shy to throw in my own. As a retired racer, I do find it a bit odd when punters talk about “raw feel” and “fun to drive” for road cars. To me that’s just poor engineering if it doesn’t make the car any more capable. The manual V12V in my garage is a prime example. Talk about engine defining the car. I’m a fan of the straight up Mac super series cars for the road. The sports series cars just feel too unsettled for me, especially at speed. But I get if you don’t race, why one may want a run a less settled car to mimic the experience.
Not shy to throw in my own. As a retired racer, I do find it a bit odd when punters talk about “raw feel” and “fun to drive” for road cars. To me that’s just poor engineering if it doesn’t make the car any more capable. The manual V12V in my garage is a prime example. Talk about engine defining the car. I’m a fan of the straight up Mac super series cars for the road. The sports series cars just feel too unsettled for me, especially at speed. But I get if you don’t race, why one may want a run a less settled car to mimic the experience.
HighwayStar said:
Would you have still bought the V12 if turned like an oil tanker and handle like a bag of jelly? Straight question.
No, I wouldn't. But equally, if it didn’t have a V12, then I probably wouldn’t have bought it.Probably, it’s because all the other bits (transmission is a masterpiece) are so good that they allow the engine to be the star. I.e. A bit like my old Integra type R back in the day really.
12pack said:
Nice to hear a reasonably intelligent discourse on people’s preferences off topic in this thread.
Not shy to throw in my own. As a retired racer, I do find it a bit odd when punters talk about “raw feel” and “fun to drive” for road cars. To me that’s just poor engineering if it doesn’t make the car any more capable. The manual V12V in my garage is a prime example. Talk about engine defining the car. I’m a fan of the straight up Mac super series cars for the road. The sports series cars just feel too unsettled for me, especially at speed. But I get if you don’t race, why one may want a run a less settled car to mimic the experience.
What do you define as speed? Not shy to throw in my own. As a retired racer, I do find it a bit odd when punters talk about “raw feel” and “fun to drive” for road cars. To me that’s just poor engineering if it doesn’t make the car any more capable. The manual V12V in my garage is a prime example. Talk about engine defining the car. I’m a fan of the straight up Mac super series cars for the road. The sports series cars just feel too unsettled for me, especially at speed. But I get if you don’t race, why one may want a run a less settled car to mimic the experience.
I've hit around 180mph on road in my 600 LT, it never felt unsettled, it felt great never unsettled.
garystoybox said:
HighwayStar said:
Would you have still bought the V12 if turned like an oil tanker and handle like a bag of jelly? Straight question.
No, I wouldn't. But equally, if it didn’t have a V12, then I probably wouldn’t have bought it.Probably, it’s because all the other bits (transmission is a masterpiece) are so good that they allow the engine to be the star. I.e. A bit like my old Integra type R back in the day really.
I do agree with it being the sum of its parts, and there is of course the fact that different characteristics are more or less important to individuals (some care about engine, some not).
In my case the engine does form a big part of it, but the rest of the car has to also be capable (handling). The engine / exhaust sound was my biggest gripe with my 570S Coupe and was a large contributing factor in my decision to sell. I then bought a 600LT spider which despite having the same engine sounds so much better due to the top exit exhausts and ability to drop the roof or rear window. It’s gone from a sound that was a huge disappointment (570S) to one that is scintillating to me (600LT) and making all the difference between loving the car and not loving it at all.
In my case the engine does form a big part of it, but the rest of the car has to also be capable (handling). The engine / exhaust sound was my biggest gripe with my 570S Coupe and was a large contributing factor in my decision to sell. I then bought a 600LT spider which despite having the same engine sounds so much better due to the top exit exhausts and ability to drop the roof or rear window. It’s gone from a sound that was a huge disappointment (570S) to one that is scintillating to me (600LT) and making all the difference between loving the car and not loving it at all.
HighwayStar said:
Would you have still bought the V12 if turned like an oil tanker and handle like a bag of jelly? Straight question.
Since people were quoting me 
Take a C205 with the 4.0 V8TT
Now throw out that lump and put in a 2.0 turbo with a enormous turbocharger with the same BHP as the old car. Still want it?
Studies on how the sales for the C206 have collapsed many suggest not
On a lower costs level take whatever engine is in a Exige 430Cup and put in a 1.0 Turbo from a Fiesta. People wont want it.
I maintain, that the engine is THE MOST IMPORTANT part of a sports car.
Forester1965 said:
Last month McLaren sold 2 cars in the UK and Ferrari sold 22.
no doubt a true statistic, but my impression is that whilst a lot of people love their McLarens. Whilst there are exceptions on here. For more general "supercar buyers" They don't seem to buy another one afterwards. Ferrari and Porsche, for all their sins. Do attract people who buy multiple cars over the years.My initial gut from reading articles is that the ownership experience is harder to accept for McLaren. Whether that's poorer reliability, dealers unable to repair faults because even the factory don't know how to fix a problem, or just depreciation being worse than Maranello or Stuttgart offerings. (probably the biggest factor)
BunkMoreland said:
HighwayStar said:
Would you have still bought the V12 if turned like an oil tanker and handle like a bag of jelly? Straight question.
Since people were quoting me Take a C205 with the 4.0 V8TT
Now throw out that lump and put in a 2.0 turbo with a enormous turbocharger with the same BHP as the old car. Still want it?
Studies on how the sales for the C206 have collapsed many suggest not
On a lower costs level take whatever engine is in a Exige 430Cup and put in a 1.0 Turbo from a Fiesta. People wont want it.
I maintain, that the engine is THE MOST IMPORTANT part of a sports car.
Forester1965 said:
Last month McLaren sold 2 cars in the UK and Ferrari sold 22.
no doubt a true statistic, but my impression is that whilst a lot of people love their McLarens. Whilst there are exceptions on here. For more general "supercar buyers" They don't seem to buy another one afterwards. Ferrari and Porsche, for all their sins. Do attract people who buy multiple cars over the years.My initial gut from reading articles is that the ownership experience is harder to accept for McLaren. Whether that's poorer reliability, dealers unable to repair faults because even the factory don't know how to fix a problem, or just depreciation being worse than Maranello or Stuttgart offerings. (probably the biggest factor)
Literally no one is interested in the new C63 for reasons we already know. Lotus had lots of orders or the 2.0 Emira but have blown it by struggling to get the cars out the door.
For me the engine is a key part of the package but that package has to deliver what I want. The 5cyl 2.5T in the TT RS is a wonderful and the car a lovely place to be but left me cold for driving pleasure and enjoyment.
I had a 981 CS and now a 981 GT4.. great engines, great package. Real character, soul and wonderful to drive.
The RS with that engine… I could only take it as a daily.
I couldn’t live with a 4cyl 718 either, personally it did nothing for me but lots of those have been sold and their owners love them… we all like different things… except the C63
Forester1965 said:
It reminds me a bit of the late TVR days. A bunch of converts rightly defending what they like about the product whilst the company making it is a bit of a basket case financially.
Last month McLaren sold 2 cars in the UK and Ferrari sold 22.
Interested to know where you got that stat ?! I know SMMT produce data by brand but not seen it for the smaller manufacturers before.Last month McLaren sold 2 cars in the UK and Ferrari sold 22.
Cheib said:
Interested to know where you got that stat ?! I know SMMT produce data by brand but not seen it for the smaller manufacturers before.
From here:https://www.am-online.com/data/manufacturer-insigh...
BunkMoreland said:
Take a C205 with the 4.0 V8TT
I maintain, that the engine is THE MOST IMPORTANT part of a sports car
Ill ask again, the k series Rover or 1zz/2zz Toyota defined the Elise? I maintain, that the engine is THE MOST IMPORTANT part of a sports car
A c205 is NOT a sports car so maybe the engine does define it, but irrelevant in this conversation.
Forester1965 said:
It reminds me a bit of the late TVR days. A bunch of converts rightly defending what they like about the product whilst the company making it is a bit of a basket case financially.
Last month McLaren sold 2 cars in the UK and Ferrari sold 22.
Jeez....Mclaren Glasgow did more than that themselves.Last month McLaren sold 2 cars in the UK and Ferrari sold 22.
Why does the McLaren forum attract types that post utter tripe.
The Ferrari order books are full until Feb 2026 and are a massive iconic brand that have been producing dreams for nearly 7 decades.
Mclaren are in their infancy and went from nothing to producing cars that knocked the big 3 onto their backsides pretty near immediately and continue to do so.
I will never understand the hate for a UK based supercar maker.
Forester1965 said:
Cheib said:
Interested to know where you got that stat ?! I know SMMT produce data by brand but not seen it for the smaller manufacturers before.
From here:https://www.am-online.com/data/manufacturer-insigh...
Ferrari would be different as Purosangues are arriving and Ferrari exerts a lot more leverage on customers to take the car as soon as it arrives (and undoubtedly a few of those customers are planning to flip before the market drops so are equally in a hurry).
February and August are never indicative new car months, it would be very different in March and September.
I'm sure Mclaren punted out plenty of used cars in Feb. SMMT only reflects new registrations.
Wheelspinning said:
Jeez....Mclaren Glasgow did more than that themselves.
Why does the McLaren forum attract types that post utter tripe.
The cars registered in Feb were likely ordered months before. The data is from DVLA/SMMT of registrations in the month. It shows McLaren doing badly in their home country.Why does the McLaren forum attract types that post utter tripe.
If you think the figures are 'tripe' you're best taking it up with the DVLA rather than me. Or even better, the heads at McLaren who're responsible for the tripe performance!
Forester1965 said:
The cars registered in Feb were likely ordered months before. The data is from DVLA/SMMT of registrations in the month. It shows McLaren doing badly in their home country.
If you think the figures are 'tripe' you're best taking it up with the DVLA rather than me. Or even better, the heads at McLaren who're responsible for the tripe performance!
The point is you’re using the worst month for all car sales, a single month, to suggest car sales for one brand are awful. Pretty much all car brands sell the least cars in February!If you think the figures are 'tripe' you're best taking it up with the DVLA rather than me. Or even better, the heads at McLaren who're responsible for the tripe performance!
Anyone can quote a statistic to prove a point but here, you’re ignoring/not using 90% of the data.
No one, especially car manufacturers, don’t use 1 month of sales figures to assess their financial performance.
According to HowManyLeft, 208 McLarens were newly registered on UK roads in the first three quarters of 2023 (where the DVLA data runs to).
That would equate to 23 cars a month in the UK market, or 277 a year.
80 Artura
47 720/750
45 GT
5 765
2 Elva
29 "unknown"
Although it's less recent, I'd take that as more representative than figures for the single month prior to the plate change.
Global sales were 1292 in H1 2023, so on track for around 2500-2800 in the year https://karenable.com/amclarens-1st-half-2023/
This fits with the rule of thumb that UK sales are about 10% of the worldwide total.
I guess that if they could double that, so get back to the 5-6k they were doing in their best years, McLaren could be modestly profitable and thus sustainable.
TBCTBC said:
The point is you’re using the worst month for all car sales, a single month, to suggest car sales for one brand are awful. Pretty much all car brands sell the least cars in February!
Anyone can quote a statistic to prove a point but here, you’re ignoring/not using 90% of the data.
No one, especially car manufacturers, don’t use 1 month of sales figures to assess their financial performance.
I posted the figure for comparison with Ferrari, not to pay attention to the figure in isolation. Anyone can quote a statistic to prove a point but here, you’re ignoring/not using 90% of the data.
No one, especially car manufacturers, don’t use 1 month of sales figures to assess their financial performance.
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