Mumtalakat to take over McLaren
Discussion
murphyaj said:
Panamax said:
Can the ordinary man in the street identify a McLaren? Possibly.
Can that ordinary man in the street tell the difference between the cheapest McLaren and the most expensive? I suspect not.
I can't argue with you on these points, but why should that matter? 99% of people can't tell whether the Porsche that just went past was a 4 cylinder Cayman or a 911 GT3 RS. I'm not going to pretend that I don't like the reaction of people to seeing a supercar, but given the choice between a 570 and 750 I wouldn't be considering whether my Mum could tell the difference.Can that ordinary man in the street tell the difference between the cheapest McLaren and the most expensive? I suspect not.
It's always felt like McLaren run their model development like Lotus used to with the Elise. Every week a shiny new press release but ultimately many of them seemed like shuffling deckchairs with the same basic ingredients.
That may seem unfair (and factually incorrect), but that's the impression it's given me over the years as someone who was always interested in the brand (having followed the race team and development of the 12C with interest back in the day).
Is a McLaren road car company divested of a literal connection to its F1 race team a strong enough brand to justify buying rather than competing against? Not so sure.
That may seem unfair (and factually incorrect), but that's the impression it's given me over the years as someone who was always interested in the brand (having followed the race team and development of the 12C with interest back in the day).
Is a McLaren road car company divested of a literal connection to its F1 race team a strong enough brand to justify buying rather than competing against? Not so sure.
HighwayStar said:
Most people recognise my car as a Porsche but have no idea it’s a GT4 or even know what a Cayman is. Beyond car enthusiasts anything low slung driving by, Lamborghini, Lotus, McLaren… the average persons first thought is Ferrari.
20 years ago I honestly had someone ask if the MX-5 I was driving was a Ferrari. In fairness it was red.I confess that, even as a die-hard car enthusiast, I have to look twice to tell which model it is when I spot a McLaren on the road. But I am sure the owner knows which one it is, and that's the most important thing.
I also think McLaren are unfairly targeted here, I have mistaken an F8 for a 488 before in passing. The only real difference for McLaren is that they don't have any front engined models with a completely different design language.
murphyaj said:
I also think McLaren are unfairly targeted here, I have mistaken an F8 for a 488 before in passing. The only real difference for McLaren is that they don't have any front engined models with a completely different design language.
Not just sports cars...A couple of years ago some people in a Kia Sportage passed me on the M5, waving madly. I was in the Maser and assumed they liked the car. As they went past I realised they were in a Levante. To me one SUV type car looks pretty much like any other, except perhaps the Urus.
murphyaj said:
I can't argue with you on these points, but why should that matter? 99% of people can't tell whether the Porsche that just went past was a 4 cylinder Cayman or a 911 GT3 RS. I'm not going to pretend that I don't like the reaction of people to seeing a supercar, but given the choice between a 570 and 750 I wouldn't be considering whether my Mum could tell the difference.
That's not the best example, they may not know what it is but the RS looks a million miles away from a basic Cayman. You can usually tell the bottom end of the range from the top end on any supercar, and the configurations are quite different.Mclaren has always had a poor design identity. Too many models that all look very similar, and (flammable models aside) all mid engined V8s. The one that is a bit different looks like it crashed into a Halfords.
CLK-GTR said:
That's not the best example, they may not know what it is but the RS looks a million miles away from a basic Cayman. You can usually tell the bottom end of the range from the top end on any supercar, and the configurations are quite different.
Yes an RS does look very different from a basic cayman. And yes *you* can tell the bottom of the range from the top, and *I* can tell the bottom of the range from the top, but from my experience talking to people at motor shows the average man or woman in the street can't. My Ferrari is 17 years old, I have had it parked next to modern examples worth three times as much, and most people have no idea which is which, even though a car enthusiast would know instantly. I absolutely promise you if a 992 911 Turbo S drove past my Wife, followed immediately by a 987 Cayman, all she would see is two Porsches.samoht said:
I mostly agree, McLaren has quite a lot in common with Lotus I think in various ways.
It looks like Automotive was mostly profitable up to the pandemic https://www.statista.com/statistics/1012238/mclare... . I think with consistently good management and a bit of luck, it's possible for such a company to be modestly profitable most years and on average.
I guess the optimistic case would be that the investment which has gone into the Artura lays the foundations for a higher quality manufacturer which can sell more cars for more money in the future, thus getting a bit closer to Ferrari's lucrative business model. That does look quite optimistic right now though.
I'm not clear on the connection between the F1 team and Automotive, the latter I understand is becoming profitable under F1's new model, so potentially the combined operation has more of a future.
I'd still like to know what the Ferrari lucrative business model can actually be defined as. It's a long time since they won in F1, and arguably the turn of the century F1 cars (high noses, narrow etc,) didn't look that cool. The last cool winning cars were Mansell era 640s, and before that 126s, which are surely going to fade from prospective purchaser memories at some point. It looks like Automotive was mostly profitable up to the pandemic https://www.statista.com/statistics/1012238/mclare... . I think with consistently good management and a bit of luck, it's possible for such a company to be modestly profitable most years and on average.
I guess the optimistic case would be that the investment which has gone into the Artura lays the foundations for a higher quality manufacturer which can sell more cars for more money in the future, thus getting a bit closer to Ferrari's lucrative business model. That does look quite optimistic right now though.
I'm not clear on the connection between the F1 team and Automotive, the latter I understand is becoming profitable under F1's new model, so potentially the combined operation has more of a future.
Aren't the road cars all now quite porky compared to McLaren?
Lot of merch? But why?
CLK-GTR said:
Too many models that all look very similar, and (flammable models aside) all mid engined V8s. The one that is a bit different looks like it crashed into a Halfords.
I never really fully grasped the Mclaren line up till i look into them, 650s rear same as 12c but the fronts are dramatically different, 570s front looks broadly similar to the 650s fronn but the rears are very obviously different and obvioulsy the 570s/600lt similarities but in my eyes thats not a different model its more like a 911 compared to a 911rs (im not sure why no one suggests the rs hasnt crashed into halfords by the way) and none are in any shape or form like the 720s/senna etcThe mid engined v8 is just the most popular format for supercars and thats (currently) what Mclaren make, i think if they moved away from that too soon the game would have been up much sooner.
Streetbeat said:
I never really fully grasped the Mclaren line up till i look into them, 650s rear same as 12c but the fronts are dramatically different, 570s front looks broadly similar to the 650s fronn but the rears are very obviously different and obvioulsy the 570s/600lt similarities but in my eyes thats not a different model its more like a 911 compared to a 911rs (im not sure why no one suggests the rs hasnt crashed into halfords by the way) and none are in any shape or form like the 720s/senna etc
The mid engined v8 is just the most popular format for supercars and thats (currently) what Mclaren make, i think if they moved away from that too soon the game would have been up much sooner.
Until very recently if i had 125k to spend i could buy a 540C with a twin turbo Ricardo V8. Had i found another 600k+ i could buy a Senna or if i was truly lucky a 1.5m Elva powered by....a twin turbo Ricardo V8.The mid engined v8 is just the most popular format for supercars and thats (currently) what Mclaren make, i think if they moved away from that too soon the game would have been up much sooner.
If i walk next door to the Ferrari dealer I can buy anything from an entry level 3.0 turbo V6 to a 6.5 V12.
For a small volume manufacturer they make too many cars and there is not enough to separate the models. Possibly the lower end models have been too good and i dont think they've done anything special enough at the top end.
CLK-GTR said:
Streetbeat said:
I never really fully grasped the Mclaren line up till i look into them, 650s rear same as 12c but the fronts are dramatically different, 570s front looks broadly similar to the 650s fronn but the rears are very obviously different and obvioulsy the 570s/600lt similarities but in my eyes thats not a different model its more like a 911 compared to a 911rs (im not sure why no one suggests the rs hasnt crashed into halfords by the way) and none are in any shape or form like the 720s/senna etc
The mid engined v8 is just the most popular format for supercars and thats (currently) what Mclaren make, i think if they moved away from that too soon the game would have been up much sooner.
Until very recently if i had 125k to spend i could buy a 540C with a twin turbo Ricardo V8. Had i found another 600k+ i could buy a Senna or if i was truly lucky a 1.5m Elva powered by....a twin turbo Ricardo V8.The mid engined v8 is just the most popular format for supercars and thats (currently) what Mclaren make, i think if they moved away from that too soon the game would have been up much sooner.
If i walk next door to the Ferrari dealer I can buy anything from an entry level 3.0 turbo V6 to a 6.5 V12.
For a small volume manufacturer they make too many cars and there is not enough to separate the models. Possibly the lower end models have been too good and i dont think they've done anything special enough at the top end.
To twist that into a negative sums up a big part of the problems McLaren have.
McLaren have in a very short space of time created a range of “volume” supercars that are technically superior to the established marques.
This is why the general public love them and are so positive towards them - biggest smiles and thumbs up / happy waves.
However, people who feel they have “skin in the game”, owners of competitor brands, feel so threatened that they spend their time on the internet talking McLaren down when the opportunity arises.
Literally on all car forums, the majority of negative posts amplifying any McLaren issue are by non-owners!?!
If McLaren were producing inferior cars that didn’t threaten other brands, no one would give a toss.
Could McLaren have done things better, differently…? Yes of course, especially as we no longer live in a time where sports car companies can figure out how to become profitable over a number of decades like Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini did.
I really hope they find a sustainable future as they make amazing driving machines.
To me Ferrari have built a business model of not just building desirable cars but they also manage the resale side strictly, they want the owners to buy these expensive cars in the knowledge that they wont lose their shirt. Model cycles are usually 5-6 years and dealers only advertise a few of the current models despite perhaps having a carpark full, this gives the perception of its rarity and keeps perceived value higher.
McLaren have too short a model cycle, with a new model every year and dealers who seem to want to off load inventory quickly pushing values down. Ferrari have a 7 year service from new keeping the car within its network earning a lucrative income for its dealers and building a relationship with owners, McLaren didn’t offer a service package and its after sale warranty is expensive compared to others, a lack of independents has not helped this, although getting better. The cars are great but that is only parts of building a successful brand
McLaren have too short a model cycle, with a new model every year and dealers who seem to want to off load inventory quickly pushing values down. Ferrari have a 7 year service from new keeping the car within its network earning a lucrative income for its dealers and building a relationship with owners, McLaren didn’t offer a service package and its after sale warranty is expensive compared to others, a lack of independents has not helped this, although getting better. The cars are great but that is only parts of building a successful brand
r o n n i e said:
The fact that the “bottom end” cars get the “same” engine as the million pound models is a massive plus for the majority of buyers.
To twist that into a negative sums up a big part of the problems McLaren have.
McLaren have in a very short space of time created a range of “volume” supercars that are technically superior to the established marques.
This is why the general public love them and are so positive towards them - biggest smiles and thumbs up / happy waves.
However, people who feel they have “skin in the game”, owners of competitor brands, feel so threatened that they spend their time on the internet talking McLaren down when the opportunity arises.
Literally on all car forums, the majority of negative posts amplifying any McLaren issue are by non-owners!?!
If McLaren were producing inferior cars that didn’t threaten other brands, no one would give a toss.
Could McLaren have done things better, differently…? Yes of course, especially as we no longer live in a time where sports car companies can figure out how to become profitable over a number of decades like Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini did.
I really hope they find a sustainable future as they make amazing driving machines.
I think you're being a bit blinkered there.To twist that into a negative sums up a big part of the problems McLaren have.
McLaren have in a very short space of time created a range of “volume” supercars that are technically superior to the established marques.
This is why the general public love them and are so positive towards them - biggest smiles and thumbs up / happy waves.
However, people who feel they have “skin in the game”, owners of competitor brands, feel so threatened that they spend their time on the internet talking McLaren down when the opportunity arises.
Literally on all car forums, the majority of negative posts amplifying any McLaren issue are by non-owners!?!
If McLaren were producing inferior cars that didn’t threaten other brands, no one would give a toss.
Could McLaren have done things better, differently…? Yes of course, especially as we no longer live in a time where sports car companies can figure out how to become profitable over a number of decades like Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini did.
I really hope they find a sustainable future as they make amazing driving machines.
Most supercars are defined by their engines. Ferrari flat plane V8 and the V12. Lamborghini V10 or V12. It's part of the character of the car and the more special the car, the more special the engine. Using the same engine for all the cars contributes to the samey feeling across the range which i dont think helps with brand loyalty when the Artura has such a dodgy start to life.
Chrism355 said:
To me Ferrari have built a business model of not just building desirable cars but they also manage the resale side strictly, they want the owners to buy these expensive cars in the knowledge that they wont lose their shirt. Model cycles are usually 5-6 years and dealers only advertise a few of the current models despite perhaps having a carpark full, this gives the perception of its rarity and keeps perceived value higher.
McLaren have too short a model cycle, with a new model every year and dealers who seem to want to off load inventory quickly pushing values down. Ferrari have a 7 year service from new keeping the car within its network earning a lucrative income for its dealers and building a relationship with owners, McLaren didn’t offer a service package and its after sale warranty is expensive compared to others, a lack of independents has not helped this, although getting better. The cars are great but that is only parts of building a successful brand
I was going to post something very similar. Other factors:McLaren have too short a model cycle, with a new model every year and dealers who seem to want to off load inventory quickly pushing values down. Ferrari have a 7 year service from new keeping the car within its network earning a lucrative income for its dealers and building a relationship with owners, McLaren didn’t offer a service package and its after sale warranty is expensive compared to others, a lack of independents has not helped this, although getting better. The cars are great but that is only parts of building a successful brand
You mention residuals, I think Ferrari have always been quite restrained in how many cars they build, aiming for one fewer than the market demands. The Purosangue is a good example of this, they could've pumped out large numbers of SUVs but have stuck to a low volume / high margin approach.
Ferrari are very effective in ensuring positive press coverage for their models among the outlets they see as influential with their customers. Often they do this by building excellent cars; when that fails, their spin doctors pick up the slack, bribing bullying and cajoling journalists into supporting the Maranello narrative.
On the competition front, Ferrari are the most recent carmaker to win an F1 race, and have threatened for the championship as recently as 2022. They also won Le Mans last year. As long as you give the tifosi hope every few years, you keep them engaged.
Finally Ferrari have been doing all this fairly consistently for the past 30 years or so, ever since Luca di Montezemolo arrived.
My perception would be that their products are quite evenly matched, but as a business Ferrari is streets ahead.
One thing not really touched on is the value of the Ferrari brand. They are comparable to LVMH more than other car makers. People will pay money not just to own the product but to be connected to/associated with them.
According to the latest share price, Ferrari is worth EUR 75 billion.
If you were happy to take on the debt I think the Bahrainis would probably accept EUR 2 billion for McLaren and think they got the better deal.
According to the latest share price, Ferrari is worth EUR 75 billion.
If you were happy to take on the debt I think the Bahrainis would probably accept EUR 2 billion for McLaren and think they got the better deal.
CLK-GTR said:
Until very recently if i had 125k to spend i could buy a 540C with a twin turbo Ricardo V8. Had i found another 600k+ i could buy a Senna or if i was truly lucky a 1.5m Elva powered by....a twin turbo Ricardo V8.
If i walk next door to the Ferrari dealer I can buy anything from an entry level 3.0 turbo V6 to a 6.5 V12.
For a small volume manufacturer they make too many cars and there is not enough to separate the models. Possibly the lower end models have been too good and i dont think they've done anything special enough at the top end.
Sigh. You just know nohing about engines.If i walk next door to the Ferrari dealer I can buy anything from an entry level 3.0 turbo V6 to a 6.5 V12.
For a small volume manufacturer they make too many cars and there is not enough to separate the models. Possibly the lower end models have been too good and i dont think they've done anything special enough at the top end.
Forester1965 said:
The point is the impression McLaren give. If they fail to inspire people the result is inevitable, irrespective of the reality. Supercars are above all else an emotive purchase.
A race-bred V8 capable of over 800bhp? Available in two engine sizes - one quite different from the other.A production-car first 120deg V6.
Designed, engineered, developed and built in Britain
Remind me where the inspiration is lacking, please.
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