Mumtalakat to take over McLaren

[Streetbeat]

CLK-GTR said:

And mine. If this thread is indicative of the Mclaren ownership circle I'm glad to be looking elsewhere.

Im sure thats vice versa......during my ownership i found most owners a pleasure to talk too, but trust me as mentioned elsewhere, if you decide to go on any other marques forum and tell owners what you dont like about their chosen brand, you will, without fail get the same response and im sure your not brave/stupid enough to tell a stanger face to face what you think about their chosen marque, obviously the safety of your keyboard allows you such a platform, very sad.

Gibbos (also a Ferrari owner) experience is mentioned elsewhere on this thread and has in the past commented on ph he has no interest in Mclarens, ask him what he thinks now after owning one, the proof is in the pudding, not trotting out catchphrases from decades ago.

Edited by Streetbeat on Thursday 14th March 13:23

[supersport]

CLK-GTR said:

Well, I've got a 2 year old so i just bought an RS6 Performance. 2 seaters are out of the picture for the time being. Still a car defined by its engine but in a slightly different way. Later this year I'll be looking to add a 599 or F12 and the main reason is the engine, i love the Ferrari V12 and I've never owned one.

I have no problem with McLaren putting the V8 in the entry or mid level cars but it feels cheap when the GT and high end stuff also gets it. I find it a bit soulless and thats why im not considering one alongside the Ferraris. They needed to develop something else. The most famous McLaren of them all would not have been half the car without that BMW V12.

I think cheap and Mclaren don't really go together

Cars and toddlers go together perfectly, they are small enough to go in the back, and it forces you not to take all the useless crap with you. Get one bought , summer's just about here.

[BunkMoreland]

samoht said:

... Often they do this by building excellent cars; when that fails, their spin doctors pick up the slack, bribing bullying and cajoling journalists into supporting the Maranello narrative.

That was the most ridiculous article of the last 15 years! Harris just got the hump "for reasons" And wrote that article ignoring that EVERY manufacturer optimises cars for press stuff! Literally everything he complained about Ferrari applies to Porsche, McLaren et al Funny how within a few months all was forgiven and he went back to singing their praises...

samoht said:

Finally Ferrari have been doing all this fairly consistently for the past 30 years or so, ever since Luca di Montezemolo arrived..

LdM left years ago! A decade! Not sure you can credit him for what his predecessors have done

EK993 said:

the Ricardo V8 is a great engine.

Nissan!

12pack said:

Utter nonsense. May have been true in Enzo’s day when they didn’t know how to build the rest of the car. Today it’s a statement by the pretenders who can’t actually drive.

Go and drive a F12 TDF, a 997.2 GT3, R8 V10 or even a W204 C63 with the 6.2 NA V8 lump.

The engines define those cars. In a sports car the engine is king.

[Pouhon]

I'll probably regret posting this...

I have come to mclaren from having porsche, ferrari, maserati, M cars etc. After many I have finally found 'the car for me' - mclaren

I loved all the cars leading up to this point for different reasons. All great marques. All with unique quality's/soul/idiosyncrasies. Is anything perfect? No. But would i unfairly critique any of them ? - No.

We all like different things, but I am sure we can all appreciate the good qualities in those cars that aren't quite what we are looking for. For me, now, I can't think of what I would want to replace the mclaren, other than another mclaren. The steering sensation and feedback are superb. The engine makes a great (different, I accept not musical) purposeful aggressive sound. It's race car in its design. British engineering triumph of an underdog company in its infancy. Race heritage. The carbon tub allowing you to have a spider without the comprises. You’ve all felt the chasis a flex on ferrari spiders - right? I just don't get the hate? I accept subjective measures such as looks, engine sound (I've had a v12 ferrari- that ruins every other engine ever for you! Nothing compares to how savage and awesome they sound) and brand cache/prestige may tip in other marques favour for some people. And that's fine. We all like different things.

But the uninformed idiots who bang on about false or inflated shortcomings of mclaren just don't make sense.

An amg V8!?

Same engine across the board?
What about the Enzo-599-FF-Lusso-F12 development of the V12. How is that much different from 720-765Lt-750? Well the mcalerens are at least evolution/special version/ new release of the same model?
The sports series cars have a different displacement v8 to the super series (though they are very related)
What engine is in the cali T, portofino, portofino M, 488, f8 tributo, maserati quatroporte GTS, levante trofeo, and with 2 cylinders removed the alfa?
911, 911s 911T, 911gts?
How distinguishable to the non enthusiast are the base 911 to the gt cars?

H
Who else is still using hydraulic steering? Even porsches GT products are electric now. I can't believe that doesn't get any criticism from the motoring press. It is such a disappointment.

What about the artura engine design? That's pretty special. Company just over 10 years old in a competitive market place that requires huge sunk development costs. I think they're doing pretty good from an engineering POV. I don't understand the criticism.

I do think mclaren fall down abit on the dealership side. And they seem to penny pinch to an embarrassing extent on customer service. And clearly they haven't quite got their bussiness model right.

I think it's unfair to assert they release unfinished cars. All marques have similar development episodes in their history. I don't think any mclaren problems are as bad or frequent as these -

911- 996/997 scoring
991.1 GT3 engines
991.2 turbo failures

458, 488 dct failures.
Recalls due to fire risk.

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/ferrari-re...

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43892239/202223...

It's a shame the same one-sided garbage gets trotted out on the internet regarding mclaren, I don't understand were it comes from, and it may stop some people from experiencing just how brilliant these cars drive. And they really do.

Edited by Pouhon on Thursday 14th March 22:24

[Soleith]

davek_964 said:

Different people like different things. Some like McLaren, some don't - and for sure, McLaren have made some mistakes in their business model.

What's different about McLaren - on PH and many other car forums - is the apparent need for people who don't like McLaren, and have no interest in buying one - to tell everybody what's wrong with them.

I've had a couple of 911s in the past. It made me realise I'm not a great fan of Porsche - but I haven't felt the need to post on 911 posts to highlight why I think they're overrated.
I had an Evora for a week - before I drove it, I fully expected to be buying one soon after that week. For various reasons, I hated it - yet I've never joined a Lotus / Evora thread to point out how st I think they are.

That is why McLaren owners get a bit defensive on here - and why many I know left PH a long time ago. Look through some Ferrari and Lambo threads - can you find many posts from non-owners pointing out why they're crap, and why they bought something else? But look through a few McLaren threads (not just here) and you'd struggle to find one where there isn't at least one non-owner telling you what a pile of crap they are.

I don't post much on the supercar section anymore for that reason - and I imagine I'll regret this post, because I have better things to do than feed the anti-McLaren brigade.
If you don't like them - fine, don't buy one, and I'm sure you'll have a party if they go down the toilet. But FFS - give it a rest.

I mean, McLaren doesn't have the monopoly in non owners explaining why they didn't like and buy a car. Plenty of Ferrari's, Aston's and Porsche's lots of people don't like and regularly state as much, me included.

I get it, nobody likes stuff they like being disliked or criticised but guess what, everyone's different and their purchase or not motivations are just as valid as yours. It's a forum after all.

[Familymad]

Panamax said:

Perhaps the bigger question is whether ANY sports cars are compatible with life in the second quarter of the 21st century.

Can the ordinary man in the street identify a McLaren? Possibly.
Can that ordinary man in the street tell the difference between the cheapest McLaren and the most expensive? I suspect not.

Not sure dealer can tell either

https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/16243013

[davek_964]

Soleith said:

I mean, McLaren doesn't have the monopoly in non owners explaining why they didn't like and buy a car. Plenty of Ferrari's, Aston's and Porsche's lots of people don't like and regularly state as much, me included.

I get it, nobody likes stuff they like being disliked or criticised but guess what, everyone's different and their purchase or not motivations are just as valid as yours. It's a forum after all.

I've owned Porsche, Ferrari and Aston Martin. The amount of criticism they get from non-owners (not just here) is not even close to being on the scale of criticism that McLaren regularly attract.

I agree - we all like different things. But McLaren seem to attract a level of negative comments that I find bizarre.

[Gibbo205]

Streetbeat said:

Im sure thats vice versa......during my ownership i found most owners a pleasure to talk too, but trust me as mentioned elsewhere, if you decide to go on any other marques forum and tell owners what you dont like about their chosen brand, you will, without fail get the same response and im sure your not brave/stupid enough to tell a stanger face to face what you think about their chosen marque, obviously the safety of your keyboard allows you such a platform, very sad.

Gibbos (also a Ferrari owner) experience is mentioned elsewhere on this thread and has in the past commented on ph he has no interest in Mclarens, ask him what he thinks now after owning one, the proof is in the pudding, not trotting out catchphrases from decades ago.

Edited by Streetbeat on Thursday 14th March 13:23

In fairness my first experiences of McLaren was the MP4-12C and I came away absolutely bored, to me it was an overly digital car and had no soul, I simply did not bond with it at all, having since driven a 650S I felt it was improved but again a car I'd never put my own money on.

Having owned Porsches, Spyder, Carrera, GT3 etc, they do drive very good and for the most part are reliable though the GT cars can be plagued by engine issues and the earlier 996/997 had alarmingly high bore scoring issues and some IMS issues, having owned a GT3 and driven RS's on a few occaisons I personally think its the best sound engine full stop 7500-9000rpm but on the road I found it not a great car, pretty much a none event.

My second look at McLarens was when I was looking at cars, I drove a 570S coupe and a 720S coupe, the latter left me rather cold it reminded me of a Huracan, so planted, so capable but the end result was crazy speed on the road to get any fun, the 570S was better but both cars to my ears just sounded terrible, at the time the 600 LT had only just been announced or was abouut to be, so it was never on the radar.

Hence I ended up in a 458 and after driving so many Ferraris, McLarens, Lambo's and Porsches I will always sing praises for the 458 as been the most fun MODERN supercar money can buy to enjoy on the road, it delivers so much fun and engagement without the need to go bonkers fast, drop it in SCT OFF and the car is alive and a real dancer at all speeds, drop it into wet/auto mode and its a competent calm cruiser, the 458 and Speciale I believe are PEAK modern supercar, end of, if you want a fun and engaging drive on the road there is no better modern supercar, is my personal feelings. Its downside is the Spider version is compromised with scuttle shake and to me I notice it, otherwise it would be perfection, for those not caring abouut the a little scuttle shake it is hard to find a better car than a 458 Spider, I am not fond of the 488 suffers the 720S issue of needing to push fast on road, F8 even more so. 812 is amazing and the 296 quite the surprise.

Then I drove a 600 LT Spider, I immediately purchased one and ran it alongside my 458 for a year but I simply drove the 458 less and less, in fact I started using 458 on wet days just so I could slide around due to how amazing the chassis is on 458 and ease to have a play due NA instant power. But 600 LT roof or window down sounds epic to the drivers ears, the steering is in another league and the car just has a real special feeling, it also gets more attention, all positive too. But the 600 LT Spider for me is like that one off car in McLarens range that ticks all my boxes, I've driven the 570S, 720S, Artura and though all good I'd not personally buy one, I did love how Artura drove but disliked the sound and looks, Artura Spider might solve this and 750S Spider too, but the 600 LT Spider to me is such a special car, top mount exhaust, one of the most playful McLarens at lower speeds with more basic suspension setup etc.

What I will say is McLaren extended warranty is far superior to Ferrari's extended power warranty, this service the car has needed some replacement parts all of which Ferrari do not cover, yet McLaren does and has confirmed approval.

I am 18 months into ownership, a few track days and 7000 miles, all been smiles and the car is now off the road for a month at my choice for its major service, corrosion repair and extended warranty work. As long as they do a great job, it has been a fantastic ownership experience and with that a picture is always required.




I enjoyed all the brands I have owned but McLaren and Ferrari for me are truly the most special, at end of the day they are all unreliable supercars and have issues, in my experience Porsche was the worse of the lot.

[12pack]

BunkMoreland said:

Go and drive a F12 TDF, a 997.2 GT3, R8 V10 or even a W204 C63 with the 6.2 NA V8 lump.

The engines define those cars. In a sports car the engine is king.

F12 and C63 yes - and that’s why they are lousy to drive. GT3 and R8 are FAR more than their engines - and that’s why they are proper driver’s cars. In a driver’s car, the chassis is king. Big, loud engines usually just muck things up.

[Gibbo205]

12pack said:

F12 and C63 yes - and that’s why they are lousy to drive. GT3 and R8 are FAR more than their engines - and that’s why they are proper driver’s cars. In a driver’s car, the chassis is king. Big, loud engines usually just muck things up.

Having owned them, for me 458 trumps them, far more fun and engaging at all speeds, yet still as capable, with a superb engine thrown in for good measure. Ability wise on the chassis though McLaren is incredible, but some involvement at lower speeds is removed, but saying that still a lot more involving than a gen2 R8/Huiracan.

[supersport]

Fundamentally unless you are particularly sad, we buy the cars for ourselves.

So who really gives a flying toss what anyone else thinks.

[Cheib]

Don’t own a McLaren but have driven a 620R on track a couple of times, it made my GT3 feel like a toy…675 LT is on the list of cars I would love to own.

Not sure where the Bahrain owners go now…two years ago their CEO was forecasting an IPO this year or next so clearly they have completely misjudged the business. I really don’t see what happens now/who buys them….last reporting period there are results for is H1 2023 where they lost £120mil….they’ve got about £500mil of debt. With that cash burn you need to write a big cheque to cover that before the equity is worth anything ?

It is by no means certain what the world holds for the manufacturers of sports cars who are now trying to sell their customers hybrids/EV’s…..values of 296 GTB’s on the used market would indicate Ferrari owners aren’t keen.

A few years ago I thought the only escape route for Aston was being “bought” (rescued) by Mercedes as I didn’t think another OEM would want to buy Aston when there cars relied so heavily on Mercedes engineering. McLaren don’t have that problem but is there really a Stroll who wants to take on McLaren ? Clearly I was wrong about Aston.

Best writing I see on this subject is the blog of the former SSO of EVO fame….

This is the last thing he wrote on McLaren after their H1 2023 results

https://karenable.com/amclarens-1st-half-2023/

Full year ‘23 results due next month……

[MclaesLaren]

Cheib said:

.

Best writing I see on this subject is the blog of the former SSO of EVO fame….

This is the last thing he wrote on McLaren after their H1 2023 results

https://karenable.com/amclarens-1st-half-2023/

Full year ‘23 results due next month……

Very good writeup from Karenable. I am hoping for a IPO. Both beeing a shareholder, car owner and enthusiast. Good Life.

[Streetbeat]

BunkMoreland said:

In a sports car the engine is king.

Tell that to Lotus Elise owners with a k series Rover or Toyota lump and they will not define the car by the engine, for good reason.

[Hammersia]

I know I keep saying it, but If I was McLaren I would get cracking on a Sterrato equivalent based on a 650 etc.

There's obviously a market for it and McLaren do so much SVO stuff they could easily and cheaply make the required mods for relatively very little money and charge oodles.

[Fast Eddie]

EK993 said:

Exactly this, everyone is comparing McLaren to brands that have been established for decades, and wondering why they don't have a dozen engine, drivetrain and vehicle type configurations available.

I have beem a McLaren owner for 5 years now (Originally a 570S and now a 600LT). The cars using essentially the same engine (which it basically does) is not a negative consideration for me, the Ricardo V8 is a great engine. It wouldn't stop me wanting a Senna or P1.

Besides, within brands (Ferrari, Lambo etc) owners are fairly divided V8 Ferrari owners don't typically desire the V12 models, and Lambo V12 owners don't aspire to own a V10. I doubt the fact that Lambo produces a V10 as an option in a different model plays any part in the decision making process for an Aventador buyer.

Put it another way, if McLaren offered a V12, V8 and a V6, would all these people saying "all the same engine" suddenly aspire to owing a 750S? What difference would it make? I can see the case of something like a Jaguar F Type where in exactly the same body style you can get a 4 pot turbo or a supercharged V8 - but in the case of McLaren, all models have a screaming twin turbo V8 with incredible performance characteristics.

I honestly don't get it.

I'm not in this argument because I have never even sat in a McLaren but let's be clear, they chose to enter the sector occupied by those brands so they must compete.

[macdeb]

Fast Eddie said:

EK993 said:

Exactly this, everyone is comparing McLaren to brands that have been established for decades, and wondering why they don't have a dozen engine, drivetrain and vehicle type configurations available.

I have beem a McLaren owner for 5 years now (Originally a 570S and now a 600LT). The cars using essentially the same engine (which it basically does) is not a negative consideration for me, the Ricardo V8 is a great engine. It wouldn't stop me wanting a Senna or P1.

Besides, within brands (Ferrari, Lambo etc) owners are fairly divided V8 Ferrari owners don't typically desire the V12 models, and Lambo V12 owners don't aspire to own a V10. I doubt the fact that Lambo produces a V10 as an option in a different model plays any part in the decision making process for an Aventador buyer.

Put it another way, if McLaren offered a V12, V8 and a V6, would all these people saying "all the same engine" suddenly aspire to owing a 750S? What difference would it make? I can see the case of something like a Jaguar F Type where in exactly the same body style you can get a 4 pot turbo or a supercharged V8 - but in the case of McLaren, all models have a screaming twin turbo V8 with incredible performance characteristics.

I honestly don't get it.

I'm not in this argument because I have never even sat in a McLaren but let's be clear, they chose to enter the sector occupied by those brands so they must compete.

But they do, the launch of the first MP4-12C made them sit up and take notice. For me McLarens (cars) are still ahead of the field. I can only speak of my own real life experience with McLaren client services and that has been fantastic.

[EK993]

Fast Eddie said:

I'm not in this argument because I have never even sat in a McLaren but let's be clear, they chose to enter the sector occupied by those brands so they must compete.

Agreed. And, they do compete. I don't believe they needed multiple engine configurations at the earliest stages of their life to do so. The fact they have a V6 now goes to show that they have started to evolve.

What they have done in their first 10 years or so of inception is quite remarkable, the fact that Ferrari and Lambo owners consider them as a competitor in this space speaks volumes, they have also forced Ferrari to up their game as Honda did when the NSX outclassed the 348 (speaking from a dynamics perspective, clearly Ferrari are masters at cultivating their brand, image and value of their cars). This is a good thing, as with no competition there is little incentive to make forward progress for the established players.

Lets see if whoever ends up owning the brand can turn around the business operations side of things, or if there is even a market for sports car only manufacturers outside of Ferrari.

[Frankychops]

Streetbeat said:

BunkMoreland said:

In a sports car the engine is king.

Tell that to Lotus Elise owners with a k series Rover or Toyota lump and they will not define the car by the engine, for good reason.

A sports car is not defined by the enigne, the best cars aren't.

[garystoybox]

Frankychops said:

A sports car is not defined by the enigne, the best cars aren't.

I thought the same, even with both my 458’s. Other ‘attributes’ that were as equally important to its greatness.
Then I bought a V12 Ferrari and realised just how overwhelmingly intoxicating the engine was. 4 years later, it still blows me away every trip and dominates the experience.